Lock?

A month after obtaining these two BP's, (I had a normal adult male, and a 2012 baby female already), I seem to have my first lock with the 2007 Normal female, and 2008 Cinnamon male!

Hard to see well, but they've been in this position for hours, (don't wanna try and move them to see better), and I can just see the Cinnamon male's tail inverted under the normal females tail. Since they've been in this position so long I am assuming there is a lock going on under there. Please check out the pics and see if you agree. This is the first breeding of any species I've accomplished in over 20 years, (like riding a bike I guess), and my first with BP's so I'm pleased. Considering that these snakes went through a major wintertime move a month ago, and are just getting settled is a good omen for things to come, (I hope). I have a young Spider female who will get her chance with this Cinny next winter. Due to the move, and my allowing them to adjust to their new environs, I thought it was getting a little late in the season to pair them up, but since they seemed to be adjusting so well I decided what the heck...give it a shot! I hadn't noticed any outright signs of ovulation from the female, but she had just eaten and shed, so I figured I'd just put them together and see if anything happened......looks like something did!!
The first photo is what I saw first thing this morning when I pulled the tub, they later moved enough for me to get a look at their tails and a few photos. In the first pic the female has her head down at the other end of the tub, while the male was wrapped up as you see him. The second pic is a closeup of the only viewing angle I have of their tails, but considering they've been that way for hours I vote "lock"!!! Photo 3 was all I could see for hours, but photo 2 was late this afternoon. I guess I'll just have to wait and see!

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/u...psa2541d73.jpg

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps5b29b10f.jpg
http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/u...psdef7e719.jpg

Looks like a lock to me in that 2nd pic. :gj:

Looks like a lock, but you should have QTd them...

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Looks like a lock to me in that 2nd pic. :gj:

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Yup, I agree. They're still locked up at this moment, (12hrs so far...at least), looks like I'll have to get an incubator going soon.....cool! :banana:

S

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobbafett

Looks like a lock, but you should have QTd them...

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I think both the snakes came into QT at the same time, so its not affecting the established snakes.

Looks like a lock to me :gj:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobbafett

Looks like a lock, but you should have QTd them...

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I did, for a month. They've eaten twice each, and show no sign of any health issues at all, (I know, famous last words). These two were also already kept together prior to my getting them, so I figured it was (relatively) safe. That's why I paired these two, as opposed to using the male I already had, (who, with my 2012 female is still isolated from the newer group). I separated them after the move to acclimate them, but I figure since they had lived together recently anyway, no harm would result. I'm very careful too about cross-contamination, always wash/sanitize my hands between snakes, and sanitize everything else with F10. I was worried the season was getting away from me, so under the circumstances this was my only option til next fall. I know BP's are not as seasonal as other species, (corns, kings, hognose, etc), but I went with what I was used to doing, (albeit 20 yrs ago). Seems to have worked.

S

Reintroduced the Cinny male and immediately got lock #2, plus, since the first lock the female has been hugging her waterbowl and hanging in the cool side of her tub; good signs for possible ovulation soon....yay!:banana:

S


http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps1e8561cb.jpg

I haven't reintroduced the male as he is blue at the moment, so I thought I'd give him a well deserved rest after two solid locks. Now though, after hanging on the cool side and wrapping herself around the water bowl for a couple of weeks, the female seems to be heat-seeking, sitting right on top of the 95 degree "hot spot" 24/7; if what I've read is correct, those are possible signs of impending ovulation. I haven't noticed any bulges, ridge-back or tail-suck, (or the "glow"), but I'm keeping a close eye on her as I'm hoping she's getting ready to go. I think I'll take her off of paper and put her on aspen shavings just in case, (better to make a nest with)!

S

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Originally Posted by Slitherous

I haven't reintroduced the male as he is blue at the moment, so I thought I'd give him a well deserved rest after two solid locks. Now though, after hanging on the cool side and wrapping herself around the water bowl for a couple of weeks, the female seems to be heat-seeking, sitting right on top of the 95 degree "hot spot" 24/7; if what I've read is correct, those are possible signs of impending ovulation. I haven't noticed any bulges, ridge-back or tail-suck, (or the "glow"), but I'm keeping a close eye on her as I'm hoping she's getting ready to go. I think I'll take her off of paper and put her on aspen shavings just in case, (better to make a nest with)!

S

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This is my first season breeding myself...but it's pretty far fetched that only after two locks your female is close to ovulation. It can take months for follicles to grow large enough before the female can ovulate. I just started pairing one of my girls around the same time (maybe a week sooner) and she's not showing any building behavior or have any large enough follicles that I can feel. Now, the only reason I can think that she may be close to an ovy is if they were pairing with each other when they lived together (I think I read that they were housed together). Also, from what I've read, they tend to heat-seek after ovulation, not before.

Like I said before, this is my first breeding season so it's possible I'm just babbling off nonsense. But based on my limited expertise, I'd say she's still got a ways to go. Have you palpated her to feel follicles? One of my girls has follicles the size of marbles. I was watching snakebytes this week and Brian from BHB said they will get to be about the size of a chicken egg before she ovulates. Best of luck to you.

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Originally Posted by BHReptiles

This is my first season breeding myself...but it's pretty far fetched that only after two locks your female is close to ovulation. It can take months for follicles to grow large enough before the female can ovulate. I just started pairing one of my girls around the same time (maybe a week sooner) and she's not showing any building behavior or have any large enough follicles that I can feel. Now, the only reason I can think that she may be close to an ovy is if they were pairing with each other when they lived together (I think I read that they were housed together). Also, from what I've read, they tend to heat-seek after ovulation, not before.

Like I said before, this is my first breeding season so it's possible I'm just babbling off nonsense. But based on my limited expertise, I'd say she's still got a ways to go. Have you palpated her to feel follicles? One of my girls has follicles the size of marbles. I was watching snakebytes this week and Brian from BHB said they will get to be about the size of a chicken egg before she ovulates. Best of luck to you.

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This is my first pairing in a while yes, but not my first ever. I just recently obtained these two animals, but I know that they had been housed together for a period of time this year before I got them. It's very likely they locked at that time, but no one noticed or paid attention, (they were not checked for days at a time apparently, though they put them together purposely to breed). That's kind of how I got them, their former owner had too much going on to do much with them, and wanted them to go to someone knowledgeable; and someone who had the time to purposely breed them. They hadn't kept any records on feeding, sheds, or anything else, so considering the circumstances, and what I learned about their previous handling I think I lucked out timing-wise. I immediately started cards on both animals, and have noticed several tell-tale signs from her in the past month, (as well as a couple of locks), so I'm making educated speculations, (or perhaps wishful hopings?). It's been a long time since my last clutch, but I remember the anticipation, and closely watching a particular female waiting for those eggs to drop....it's still exciting, even after all these years! Basically I think this guy nailed her long before they got here, and I'm hoping her subtle behaviors are proof of that, (ie; I got a hunch!!!):hump:.
I'm also aware that some females will lock, (sometimes frequently), show signs of ovulation yet never ever "go", but I'm feeling lucky with this girl! Right now the only indicators I have is her behavior, but my spidey sense tells me..............

S

Good Luck send pics when she drops them pearly whites

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Originally Posted by joebad976

Good Luck send pics when she drops them pearly whites

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Will do.



S

Update.

Since my last posting I reintroduced the Cinny male to the 2007 female four more times, and observed locks each time. I also have been paying attention to her behavior and weight. Though no specific ovulation behavior has been observed, after a feeding on the 11th of Feburary, (two large F/T mice), she weighed in at 2080 grams. She hasn't been fed since and today she weighed 2250 grams, so I took a close look at her, (pic below). Though I couldn't feel whether any follicles were present, her appearance has changed a bit, and to me she just looks "rounder". Maybe not exactly lumpy, but possibly building. I guess I'll just have to wait and see, but the weight gain of 170 grams gives me some hope.

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps501055da.jpg

You can see my high tech card system on the left of the photo, (just a simple index card). I record everything about each snake including all sheds, cage cleanings, weights and feedings. I also record when the snakes are introduced/removed for breeding, feeding refusals, or anything that happens to a particular snake. It's a good habit to get into, and I can keep them on a schedule without having to rely on my faulty memory.
I also recently decided to switch from newsprint to aspen shavings as an experiment, and so far I much-prefer the shavings. It absorbs odors very well, retains more humidity, and has a pleasant, gentle aroma of it's own when fresh. I also think it's more comfy for the snakes....but, we'll see.........the experiment continues.....

S

Awesome for you! But don't count your chickens yet! (or, BPs lol) Getting locks is the very FIRST stage....then you gotta wait for eggs, then the unbearable gritting-your-teeth period of incubation! Good luck to ya, and for a cinny/normal pairing: "...may the odds be ever in your favor."

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Originally Posted by 4theSNAKElady

Awesome for you! But don't count your chickens yet! (or, BPs lol) Getting locks is the very FIRST stage....then you gotta wait for eggs, then the unbearable gritting-your-teeth period of incubation! Good luck to ya, and for a cinny/normal pairing: "...may the odds be ever in your favor."

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Thanks. Yeah I know, waiting and watching, waiting and watching. I successfully bred chameleons some years back, (Veiled & Panthers), and I remember the waiting game very well. The females had to be watched closely to determine when they were ready to lay, and they always seemed to be on their own schedule...never mine. With Chammy's the female had to be placed in a covered bucket of moistened sand at precisely the right moment so they could dig their deep burrows to lay their clutches. The Panthers especially were difficult as they showed no outward physical signs of an impending clutch other than their behavior, hopefully my BP's will be easier to "read".

This particular female has been with that Cinny male several times since last summer, so if she is going to go she should do it soon. A weight gain may or may not be significant, but being an optimist I'm hoping it is!! Stay tuned!

S

Update:

2288 grams, a gain of 38 grams, and she is blue.....again, (she just shed a month ago), and definitely lumping up. Whether it was follicles I felt today is another question, but I felt something in there and she is showing definite signs of going, (possible pre-ovulation shed, lumping up, weight gain, slight tail-suck). In the closeup below you can see she is definitely blue, and though it may be hard to see in the other photo she is definitely lumpy.

Definitely blue, (again):

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps1f5c758e.jpg

Lumpy girl!!:

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps8e66dda4.jpg

The next sign would be the "glow" before she goes, (after the impending shed). If I see her laying inverted that would be another good sign. It's also possible that this upcoming shed is actually a pre-lay shed, (it's totally possible she has been building without my noticing), in which case I would get eggs around 30 days after. According to what I've read she will shed 16 days after ovulation, (which I may have already missed noticing), and then she should lay 27 days after that.

Whatever the case, whether this is a pre-lay or pre-ovulation shed, it's beginning to look promising.

S

I wasn't sure before, but I am now. We've got follicles. She definitely is uncomfortable, is refusing to feed and moving back and forth from the warm side to wrapping herself around the water bowl on the cool side; plus she is definitely looking lumpy. It might be hard to see in the photos, but I absolutely felt follicles when I palpitated around the lump. This will be my first clutch in 20years, (not my first though). Keeping a close eye on her and getting an incubator ready! Stay tuned!


S

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps9bf50d54.jpg

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps5128ec88.jpg

Yup, plus she is glowing.

Thanks for the confirmation. It's been awhile so I've been second guessing myself, but the signs are now pretty obvious. She only bred with my cinnamon male.......so will I get 50/50 normal/cinny? Hmmmm, where did I put that genetics calculator link?
Next season I have a young spider female to put with that cinny male, (she's just through her second winter), so I'm hoping for something special from that. For now I'll take what I get and go from there. Got a little work to get an incubator set up yet, but I have all the pieces, (thermostat, extra tank, heat rope, etc, etc), even have baby tubs set up in my rack just waiting for hatchlings. I have an old mini fridge I could use, but don't have room for it and really don't want to carry it up my stairs, (it's really a pig), so I probably will do the old submersible heater trick in an old aquarium or something similar, (run by a Herpstat of course)......cool stuff!

S

Yup 50/50 on that pairing

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/wizard/

Wow, she really ballooned up overnight. According to what I've read we should have eggs in around 44 days, (http://www.ballpython.ca/gallery/breeding.html). Watching her closely and getting an incubator ready. She should go into a pre-lay shed in a coupla weeks correct?

S

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps9935f706.jpg

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps1d2b185a.jpg

Yes pre-lay shed in 2-3 weeks on average.

Here she is before ovulation.........before "the glow".


http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/u...psb27eed0e.jpg

Ovulating. Obviously glowing....what a difference! She's building, restless and obviously uncomfortable. She had been laying inverted immediately prior to my taking this photo; she rolled back over just before I pushed the shutter. Her change of appearance, especially her color is quite dramatic.

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps1b70b2b5.jpg

Update. Caught her laying upside down today. She's obviously uncomfortable, and stays mostly on the warm end. According to her pre-lay shed she should lay June 23 or 24. Got the incubator and egg tub set up and holding a steady 89. Watching for "tail suck". Stay tuned!

S

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps4cb7a214.jpg

Still building, laying inverted more and more. Lay date should be this Sunday or Monday, (or maybe even Saturday). Egg box and incubator waiting..........

S


http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps3ef95258.jpg

Just to clarify, "tail suck" and building occur during or before ovulation. ;)

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Originally Posted by Annarose15

Just to clarify, "tail suck" and building occur during or before ovulation. ;)

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Thanks for the clarification. The "art" of breeding ball pythons has evolved since the last time I bred any reptiles some 25-odd years ago, mostly chameleons & geckos, but did have a wild-caught gravid female BP drop a clutch on me once, (successfully incubated in my chamy incubator....way before "designer" ball pythons started showing up and it became an industry). I owned a reptile-specific pet store in the late 80's in SoCal...captive breeding was just getting going then, and breeding husbandry hadn't really been standardized yet. In the meantime breeders have refined techniques down to a science and I'm still playing a bit of catch up. Whatever the case, her last shed, (presumably, probably, a pre-lay shed), should mean eggs should be laid on the 23rd or 24th; at least according to Marcus Jayne's website info, and assuming she had ovulated prior to that shed, (confirmed by a poster earlier in this thread). She's obviously been uncomfortable, laying inverted, moving around and such, so I think I'm reading her signs correctly and I should see a clutch by next week, (hopeful wishing....:confusd: ). All I can do is wait and let her do her thing, (or not do her thing...), and report back.

For some reason the site says I removed the photos in some previous posts, (I didn't), but I'll see if I can remedy that so you can go back and confirm the "glow" from those earlier pics.

S

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slitherous

A month after obtaining these two BP's, (I had a normal adult male, and a 2012 baby female already), I seem to have my first lock with the 2007 Normal female, and 2008 Cinnamon male!

Hard to see well, but they've been in this position for hours, (don't wanna try and move them to see better), and I can just see the Cinnamon male's tail inverted under the normal females tail. Since they've been in this position so long I am assuming there is a lock going on under there. Please check out the pics and see if you agree. This is the first breeding of any species I've accomplished in over 20 years, (like riding a bike I guess), and my first with BP's so I'm pleased. Considering that these snakes went through a major wintertime move a month ago, and are just getting settled is a good omen for things to come, (I hope). I have a young Spider female who will get her chance with this Cinny next winter. Due to the move, and my allowing them to adjust to their new environs, I thought it was getting a little late in the season to pair them up, but since they seemed to be adjusting so well I decided what the heck...give it a shot! I hadn't noticed any outright signs of ovulation from the female, but she had just eaten and shed, so I figured I'd just put them together and see if anything happened......looks like something did!!
The first photo is what I saw first thing this morning when I pulled the tub, they later moved enough for me to get a look at their tails and a few photos. In the first pic the female has her head down at the other end of the tub, while the male was wrapped up as you see him. The second pic is a closeup of the only viewing angle I have of their tails, but considering they've been that way for hours I vote "lock"!!! Photo 3 was all I could see for hours, but photo 2 was late this afternoon. I guess I'll just have to wait and see!

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/u...psa2541d73.jpg

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps5b29b10f.jpg
http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/u...psdef7e719.jpg

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Are you able to put them together even though you didnt feel follicles????:P

She's looking very ridgebacked tonight. Drop day should be tomorrow or the next day. Of course I have to be away from home all day tomorrow, but I assume she will lay whether I'm around or not. Stay tuned,

S

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/u...psfd5e7088.jpg

Well, today was the day, and according to my calculations she was right on schedule. 8 egg clutch, 750grams, (93.75 average per egg). Candled them with a pen light and as far as I could tell there were veins showing in all of the eggs, so we should be good. She was a bit hissy, but not necessarily aggressive when I removed her, didn't strike just hissed. The eggs were stuck to the bottom of the tub, but they came loose easily. I was worried that they may not fit in the egg tub I had prepared, but with a little gentle manipulation they just fit. Had the incubator and egg tub ready to go, so now I just keep an eye on them and wait. Pretty happy with this first clutch in over 20 years, and hopefully I'll have 4 normal and 4 cinnamon babies by the end of August. Thanks to all who advised and encouraged!:bow:

Guarding those eggs!

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps4c3a1844.jpg

Eight big eggs, not bad for a first clutch for this girl.

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps0b2a0a57.jpg

Into the egg tub, (barely), then into the incubator.

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps20b42689.jpg


Stay tuned, I'll post updates during incubation, and for sure will post baby pics when they hatch.


S

Yay! Congratulations. :D

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Originally Posted by Anya

Yay! Congratulations. :D

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Thanks, it's been a long time........feels good. I was amazed at how studied and exact ball python husbandry has become in the last couple of decades. I was able to predict nearly to the day when she would lay. "Back in the day" we had a rough idea of what was going on, but the info out on the web nowadays makes being successful at captive breeding much easier, at least there aren't as many unknowns as before.

S

Getting close to pip day!! Eggs are starting to dimple, so I'm keeping a close eye on them. Condensation is forming on the egg tub, so according to Marcus Jayne's website those signs should mean hatchlings within three weeks. The 60 day mark will be 8-24, so it might be any day now. Stay tuned!

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps351b9303.jpg


S