Get Flu Shot or Get Out?

What do you think of these hospitals who fired nurses who didn't get flu shots? Should health care workers be allowed to make this health care decision on an individual basis? Or no?

First off, I don't know anything but what you've stated in this thread regarding the situation, but I'll speculate on a few points:

1. Working in a hospital, you're GOING to get exposed to the flu. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of how many hours it'll take and how many times it'll happen.

2. Hospital admins probably don't want their staff to all get sick simultaneously and/or spread the flu to patients, especially those patients who are immunocompromised and/or already sick with something else.

3. They probably exempted anyone with an allergy.

4. The percentage of nurses refusing was probably anticipated to be very low, and thus they would feel that it'd be better to lose a small quantity of staff and hire replacements than deal with the hassle of having them get sick.

Given the above, I think it's reasonable to require it of hospital staff, especially those who interact frequently and directly with patients. If nothing else, it's a matter of patient safety, and hospitals have large liability reasons to take that seriously. A nurse who raises a fuss over getting fired for refusing the flu shot is something they'd much rather deal with than a wrongful death/malpractice suit from the family of an AIDS patient whose nurse had the flu and coughed in their room.

Yeah, it sucks to be the nurse who got fired, but OTOH, unless you're allergic to the flu shot, which would probably get you exempted, what's your reason for refusing?

I have to disagree with the Mandatory policy on several points;
1) There is no such thing as a 100% effective flu vaccine. Every year, the vaccines are based on a "best guess" as to the strains of influenza that "might" be common. Some years, the flu shots are pretty close to useless. In April, 2012, the director of the Center for Immunization Research at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in Baltimore admitted, “Our ability to predict which strain will circulate has not been great. We might as well have tossed a coin.” [Ref: Nature Medicine 18, 471 (2012)]
2) Flu shots have very real risks and potential complications.
3) Do you really want big hospital corporations deciding what to inject in their employee's bodies? Do you really find that acceptable?
4) In order to get an exemption, health care employees are being required to prove their medical or religious reasons. Do you, at your job, have to hand over any personal medical information to your boss? Do you have to prove your religion to your boss?

Yes, they should. There's no telling what kind of people they're going to be working with. They might be like me, who has a healthy immune system and is going to be able to fight off the flu (not to mention, I have had my flu shot, so even if I get it, it'll be considerably better).

However, they also might be working with an immunocompromised person who lacks the ability to fight off illnesses. This can be anyone from someone with a hereditary disorder that causes such, to someone who recently had surgery, to someone who's on steroids. Meaning, if they get the flu, it very well could kill them. Is that something you honestly want to be responsible for?

Unless the person has allergies to the shot, it's quite frankly selfish not to get vaccinated. Not only are you helping to protect yourself, you're protecting others. This applies to everyone, not just health field professionals.

Correct me if I'm wrong! But I was under the impression that you could still carry a disease (the flu, chicken pox, whatever) and the vaccinations just protected your system. Regardless of whether they're vaccinated or not, common sense sanitation seems more practical in preventing patient/caregiver disease transfers than requiring vaccinations.

On your clothes/skin, yes. However, if the virus is unable to replicate in your system, then you're not going to be able to spread it.

Essentially, vaccines provide a sample of whatever it is (be it virus or bacteria) to your body so that it can develop antibodies to it. If you get exposed to the item that you're vaccinated against, the white blood cells will immediately attack the item, and usually, you won't get sick since the item won't reproduce enough to be able to be spread.

In many cases, a person is contagious before they even show signs of being sick. The symptoms of being sick simply means that the virus/bacteria has replicated enough to cause issues and the body is fighting back.

I would guess as healthcare becomes mandatory, the employer will be telling the employee what they have to do to work there.

Flu shots, no smoking, drug test etc.

If I had a business of 30 or more employees working full time, there is no way in Hell I'm going to pay for a smokers healthcare.

I'm guessing like most jobs there are steps you need to take to protect yourself and others around you.

If you want to work for the RedCross or the like, or any help type of group and want to go to Africa. I bet it's mandatory to get a few round of shots before they fly you over.

You think the hospitals would have fired those same workers if they didn't want to wear gloves?

Every year I get the flu shot I get a terrible case of the flu. Every year I skip it I just end up with a cold or something mild.. or nothing.

Personally, I am not a fan of vaccines. I don't want to just inject stuff into my body because it "might" help protect me from a virus that I "might" get. I am young and my immune system is strong. I'm confident that I will be able to fight off the seasonal flu if I do happen to get it.

As for people in health care, I understand why its mandatory, but I don't think its right. You aren't a risk unless you actually get sick. So why don't they just require that they take sick days if they do get the flu?

I dunno.. its not illegal to not get the flu shot, so why should they have to get one in order to keep their job? Especially if it isn't actually going to do anything.

Doesn't help that I don't like needles. yuck.

Sure. I agree with it. Your employer can fire you for almost any reason. You have to dress like they want you to dress. Behave like they want you behave. It makes sense to require them to take flu shots. If you don't agree with the work environment, there's the door.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Every year I get the flu shot I get a terrible case of the flu. Every year I skip it I just end up with a cold or something mild.. or nothing.

Personally, I am not a fan of vaccines. I don't want to just inject stuff into my body because it "might" help protect me from a virus that I "might" get. I am young and my immune system is strong. I'm confident that I will be able to fight off the seasonal flu if I do happen to get it.

As for people in health care, I understand why its mandatory, but I don't think its right. You aren't a risk unless you actually get sick. So why don't they just require that they take sick days if they do get the flu?

I dunno.. its not illegal to not get the flu shot, so why should they have to get one in order to keep their job? Especially if it isn't actually going to do anything.

Doesn't help that I don't like needles. yuck.

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Thanks to vaccines, you no longer have to worry about polio or small pox. Thanks to vaccines, if you get bit by a rabid animal, you'll live and not contract it. Your immune system isn't going to protect you against everything and it's foolish to think it will.

As I stated above, it's very possible to not be sick and still be contagious to other people.

The flu shot does plenty, just because you're one of a minority that gets sick (chances are you already had it when you were vaccinated, depending on when you were vaccinated), doesn't mean it's utterly useless.

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Originally Posted by Raptor

Thanks to vaccines, you no longer have to worry about polio or small pox. Thanks to vaccines, if you get bit by a rabid animal, you'll live and not contract it. Your immune system isn't going to protect you against everything and it's foolish to think it will.

As I stated above, it's very possible to not be sick and still be contagious to other people.

The flu shot does plenty, just because you're one of a minority that gets sick (chances are you already had it when you were vaccinated, depending on when you were vaccinated), doesn't mean it's utterly useless.

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Im 24 an had the flu shot 9 times.. Haven't ha one since I turned 21.. Within 5 days of every flu shot I've had I've gotton so sick I'm back in the hospital getting anti biotics for a disease that the dr gave me.. Never again will this happen..

Im loving just outside Chicago and we have one of if not the worst flu bugs going around right now the other 6 ppl that work at my shop have all gotton it yet I have not.. 4 of those 6. Got their flu shots...

Its another way for someone to make money

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Originally Posted by Raptor

Thanks to vaccines, you no longer have to worry about polio or small pox. Thanks to vaccines, if you get bit by a rabid animal, you'll live and not contract it. Your immune system isn't going to protect you against everything and it's foolish to think it will.

As I stated above, it's very possible to not be sick and still be contagious to other people.

The flu shot does plenty, just because you're one of a minority that gets sick (chances are you already had it when you were vaccinated, depending on when you were vaccinated), doesn't mean it's utterly useless.

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Agreed there are some useful vaccines, but the flu shot is not mandatory. There is a reason it is optional, because they can't guarantee that it will do anything at all.

Until there is some proof that the flu shot will absolutely protect me, I will not be getting one.

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Originally Posted by BoostedMX3

Im 24 an had the flu shot 9 times.. Haven't ha one since I turned 21.. Within 5 days of every flu shot I've had I've gotton so sick I'm back in the hospital getting anti biotics for a disease that the dr gave me.. Never again will this happen..

Im loving just outside Chicago and we have one of if not the worst flu bugs going around right now the other 6 ppl that work at my shop have all gotton it yet I have not.. 4 of those 6. Got their flu shots...

Its another way for someone to make money

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Well, there's your problem. Antibiotics only treat bacteria. The flu is caused by a virus. Which means by taking antibiotics, you're wasting your money. Now, if the illness got better quickly with the antibiotics, then it means that you actually didn't have the flu. I'm 24 as well, I've had my flu shot ever since I could remember, and generally, the only time I get sick is when the oak pollen comes out (my grandma got it since the 60s and never got the flu).

The flu shot doesn't completely prevent the flu shot, contrary to what people seem to think. It makes the flu a lot less severe than it would have normally been.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Agreed there are some useful vaccines, but the flu shot is not mandatory. There is a reason it is optional, because they can't guarantee that it will do anything at all.

Until there is some proof that the flu shot will absolutely protect me, I will not be getting one.

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And I'll keep getting one and enjoy not getting sick.

I take what the dr prescribes I guess I call all that crap anti biotics.. Weather it is or isn't idk can't ever spell or say the names of half the drugs they give

I wouldn't think your immune system is that great if you get sick from a flu shot.
If you are getting sick from it, the elderly must be dying from it :p
You could be getting sick just from being in the place where they are giving the shot.

I myself have never had one.

Never touch your eyes, nose or mouth when in public and always wash your hands.

I now need an F10 bath.

I'm on the fence. I completely understand why it would be mandatory. No, the flu shot does not prevent every single strain of flu out there, BUT someone in the health care profession IS a lot more likely to be exposed those particular strains in the shot, regardless what strains are most prevalent in the general population that season. Healthcare professionals are also working with people who may be at much higher risk of dying from illnesses that would be just a minor inconvenience to the rest of us. I am especially sensitive to this part because I have had quite a few friends and family members who had to undergo cancer treatment, and one friend died because of an infection that would have been minor to the rest of us. Cancer patients have no immune system, the treatment kills it. Other people have compromised immune systems for other reasons. Sick people, even with a minor illness, are more susceptible to contracting more diseases than someone who is healthy and not sick. Nurses who are working with these people SHOULD be taken every precaution necessary to keep them safe. It IS possible to be carrying a diseases and not realize it: either because your system is strong enough that you don't actually become symptomatic (or maybe you only sneeze or get a runny nose and pass it off as allergies) or because you just aren't showing symptoms yet. A healthcare professional isn't working around normal, healthy people, they are working around individuals who could potentially die from something like the cold or flu.

At the same time I don't like the idea of being forced to inject things into your body against your will. I have to face this with my child: either go ahead with vaccines, or face the waiver procedure when it comes to daycare and school. (But on this note, people also have a choice in their profession, and someone who chooses to go into the healthcare profession should also recognize the risks they pose to the people they will be caring for, and be willing to take the steps necessary to keep those people as safe and healthy as possible.) My biggest issue with the flu vaccine is the thimerosal, however there ARE thimerosal-free vaccines available.

I heard about that and I think it's a load of crap. Granted I have nothing to back up my opinion, but I'm not on the flu shot bandwagon. I only got the shot one year because my mother made me and that year was no different than any other year. The flu shot only protects you against some flu viruses and it comes with plenty of side effects. Until I see some concrete proof that I should get the flu shot I will not get it. Most new vaccines are sketchy in my book.

With thiomersal, I'm suspecting that you're going to get exposed to more mercury eating fish three times a week than you will from a vaccine.

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Originally Posted by Raptor

With thiomersal, I'm suspecting that you're going to get exposed to more mercury eating fish three times a week than you will from a vaccine.

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Exposure to mercury through ingesting fish is a very different kind of exposure than that through injection, and the amount of mercury actually absorbed and utilized by your body is likely going to be very different. The amount of mercury that can be "safely" injected is also going to be different than the amount of mercury that can "safely" be ingested. The "safety levels" currently declared for fish refer only to ingestion, not injection.

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Originally Posted by sorraia

Exposure to mercury through ingesting fish is a very different kind of exposure than that through injection, and the amount of mercury actually absorbed and utilized by your body is likely going to be very different. The amount of mercury that can be "safely" injected is also going to be different than the amount of mercury that can "safely" be ingested. The "safety levels" currently declared for fish refer only to ingestion, not injection.

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I had to look up the comparison of mercury in flu vaccine vs fish. Used information from the CDC.

Flu vaccine contains 25mcg/0.5mL, and one vaccine is a 0.5mL dose, so that's 25mcg mercury injected into the person's body.

The amount of mercury contained in fish varies, but using median level of mercury concentration:
catfish = 0.005ppm = 0.002mg/lb
salmon = 0.015ppm = 0.007mg/lb
tilapia = 0.004ppm = 0.002mg/lb
trout = 0.025ppm = 0.011mg/lb
tuna = 0.078ppm = 0.035mg/lb

Assuming the person eats 1/2lb of fish in one serving, the amount of mercury consumed:
catfish = 0.001mg
salmon = 0.0035mg
tilapia = 0.001mg
trout = 0.0055mg
tuna = 0.0175mg

Compare that to the vaccine:
25mcg = 0.025mg


So if a person eats 8 ounces of these fish, they are consuming less mercury than is injected in one flu vaccine. IF a person eats fish 3 times a week, they may consume more mercury than is injected, depending on the type of fish consumed. I don't know how many people consume fish 3 times a week, I only know that I personally don't eat fish that often (I'm probably lucky if I consume fish once a week).

All of that is of course assuming mercury consumed affects a person the same way it does when injected. Most likely it doesn't, since most substances have a different effect depending on their mode of exposure. I don't know off hand of any comprehensive (and valid) studies that have looked into this. Not arguing about it one way or another, just wanted to give out the numbers I found, because I thought it was interesting.

It is up to each individual person (assuming their profession doesn't require it) to decide what is best for them and their bodies. Personally, I choose not to get the flu vaccine (for multiple reasons), nor give it to my child (again for multiple reasons). I have never received the flu vaccine, even when I was pregnant. There are other vaccines I have chosen to receive or give to my child (and my child's pediatrician only orders thimerosal-free vaccines). That's the choice I've made, and it may be different from the choice others make.

Regardless, in an injection, you're most likely getting a milliliter or two of fluid. In that, there's probably a microliter or less of thiomeral. For comparison, a milliliter is 0.001, a microliter is 0.000000001

I wanna be a hatter when i grow up so i could use the extra mercury.

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Originally Posted by 3skulls

Flu shots, no smoking, drug test etc.

If I had a business of 30 or more employees working full time, there is no way in Hell I'm going to pay for a smokers healthcare.

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Would you also refuse to pay for the healthcare of a person with a BMI of over 29? Obesity can easily cause as many health problems as smoking. And considering that roughly a third of American adults are clinically obese, it might limit your applicant pool.

For general companies, I don't think any such requirements on vaccines, smoking, weight etc. are necessary. However, I do think that in the healthcare profession, practitioners should be held to a higher standard. Not only are they in direct contact with immunocompromised people, but they should also provide an example of healthy living to the general public.

Its part of their employment contract....fire em if they refuse! I don't want a HEALTHCARE PROVIDER working on me and healing me who in reality is actually increasing my risk of illness simply b/c of their vaccination refusal. Fire anyone who refuses anything as part of their employment....they knowingly signed the documents agreeing to it as condition of employment.

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Originally Posted by BoostedMX3

Im 24 an had the flu shot 9 times.. Haven't ha one since I turned 21.. Within 5 days of every flu shot I've had I've gotton so sick I'm back in the hospital getting anti biotics for a disease that the dr gave me.. Never again will this happen..

Im loving just outside Chicago and we have one of if not the worst flu bugs going around right now the other 6 ppl that work at my shop have all gotton it yet I have not.. 4 of those 6. Got their flu shots...

Its another way for someone to make money

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You do realize if you actually got sick from the flu vaccine...you can't be healed with antibiotics.....?? Antibiotics only work on bacteria...not viruses ;)

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Originally Posted by OsirisRa32

You do realize if you actually got sick from the flu vaccine...you can't be healed with antibiotics.....?? Antibiotics only work on bacteria...not viruses ;)

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I already told him that. He apparently calls everything antibiotics.

Which makes the pharmacist in me cringe.

I haven't read through this thread, but I do think that if you work in a healthcare setting, you should 100% absolutely be required to get a flu shot.

Some people on the first page went through why.