Frustrated. she's stuck on mice.

my bumblebee girl is around 500 or 600 grams i'm guessing. she gobbles down 2-3 live mice every 5 days. i've tried a "small" rat probably 6 or 7 times now. the live mice i've been getting from the pet store are pretty small, and the small rats are pretty big, especially compared to the mice. so the rats are a big jump up for her.

so far i've tried rubbing a rat with mouse bedding (although i don't believe the bedding was very "mouse" smelly), and holding a mouse in there by the tail, waiting until she gets into feeding/ strike mode, and taking the mouse out and throwing the rat in there with her. as soon as the rat runs up and bumps her in the face she instantly gets out of feeding mode. i think the size of them intimidates her.

i THINK i might have found a somewhat local breeder that can get me weaned rats and smaller than "small," but it's about a 45 minute drive and not exactly convenient. i think if i can get smaller rats i might be able to get her to take. i haven't tried straight up rubbing a rat with a mouse yet, which i may do soon.

any tips? should i try switching to f/t mice and THEN switch to f/t rats? or switch straight to live rats?

but my main question is, how long should i be stubborn and let her go without eating? i know babies can't go long without eating, but she's up to 5 or 600 grams. i hate seeing her miss meals and i've only let her miss one meal in a row, always giving in and giving her some mice on the second week.

I would give f/t rats a try. Much less intimidating :P

You could probably try the tough love approach for a month. Hold out until she takes the rat. 3-4 weeks without eating shouldn't hurt a snake that size.

I have been driving an hour and a half each way to get live rats of the right size for my snakes that won't take frozen. I google mapped 'pets' and hovered over the red dots that were close to my house. I was able to find a mom and pop pet store a few towns over that breeds their own pet rats and will sell pinks/pups as they have them. That's my advice to you in finding a smaller rat.

GL

I'd try rubbing the mouse on the rat. My friends bp was stuck on mice, refused to eat anything but live mice. We bought a mouse and a small rat put them in the same tank and let the tank sit next to the snakes tank for a week. I'm not sure if it was the scent mix from them being housed together or just the teasing scent of food in general, but after her skipped meal and week of waiting she took the rat with no problem and the mouse is now a "pet" and he throws her rats in with it for a few days before her feeding day.

^^that actually sounds like a pretty good idea. is it ok to temporarily house a rat with a mouse? will the rat not try n eat the mouse? lol

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Originally Posted by MrLang

I have been driving an hour and a half each way to get live rats of the right size for my snakes that won't take frozen.
GL

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you're a trooper. lol

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Originally Posted by creepin

^^that actually sounds like a pretty good idea. is it ok to temporarily house a rat with a mouse? will the rat not try n eat the mouse? lol

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X2 that sounds like a great way to switch my snake that is about 1100 grams over from 4-5 mice every 7 days to one or two rats (depending on wight) every week.

If you're going to breed her then I wouldn't switch. try and find a local mouse breeder and feed her larger mice. once you get her to breeding size and she has a clutch of eggs. wash her and her tub real good. wait a few days and then try the switch. some will eat what ever once their follicles start to grow. my females that are on soft furs will usually switch after having a clutch. If she likes mice and you try to switch her. it might take forever getting to breeding size. if you're thinking about breeding her. if not, wait her out, when she gets hungry enough she should change but like I said it could put her back in time for breeding.

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Originally Posted by don15681

If you're going to breed her then I wouldn't switch. try and find a local mouse breeder and feed her larger mice. once you get her to breeding size and she has a clutch of eggs. wash her and her tub real good. wait a few days and then try the switch. some will eat what ever once their follicles start to grow. my females that are on soft furs will usually switch after having a clutch. If she likes mice and you try to switch her. it might take forever getting to breeding size. if you're thinking about breeding her. if not, wait her out, when she gets hungry enough she should change but like I said it could put her back in time for breeding.

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to clear this up a little after I read it. some will eat before they have a clutch. when placing a male in with her and when her follicles starts to grow. some females will slam rodents and with some females, it doesn't matter which rodents they are.

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We bought a mouse and a small rat put them in the same tank and let the tank sit next to the snakes tank for a week.

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ive tried everything except that trick.

I will tell you though, i did try the "smaller rat" thing, and it did not work on my 970-990g mouser. I tried more than once, a small rat which is pretty much the size of a large mouse, he will show alot of interest but after a while i guess he realizes that its a rat and just retreats to his hide. I dont know if its the scent or the size of the head (a rat head is way bigger than a mouse head i noticed) that gives it away. Now with a regular rat hes gones as soon as he sees the size, and even on a ASF rat.

I have pretty much giving up, and now im just working on him eating atleast 2 mouses in one feeding as supposed to 1 mouse, since he only eats every 2-3 weeks although he is't loosing any real weight.

Thats not to say you should give up though, keep on trying, and def try that housing a rat and mouse together for a week. I would do that myself but i cannot stand having a rat and mouse just chilling in my house for that long, yuck.

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Originally Posted by creepin

^^that actually sounds like a pretty good idea. is it ok to temporarily house a rat with a mouse? will the rat not try n eat the mouse? lol



you're a trooper. lol

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As long as they have adequate food, water and space the rat won't harm the mouse. I know somebody who used a mother rat with new babies as a surrogate for a nursing mouse baby.. She rubbed the little mouse on the baby rats, placed it in the pile and the mother fed and cared for it like one of her own.

1.0 ball pythons - Koba
0.1 pitbull/lab - Cinnamon
0.1 collie/elkhound - Fluffy
0.2 children
1.0 boyfriend

http://imageshack.us/a/img7/3989/photo1nxq.jpg


just an update: she took her first rat last night! SO proud of her.

it was a weaned rat so it was just a little bigger than the mice she's been getting. i had a tub with four mice in it. i put the rat in there with them for about 8 hours (the duration of my work shift), and when i came home the rat was all cuddled up with the mice. figured the rat had to reek of mouse to a snake. threw the rat in with her and she took it without even thinking.
:gj:

i think i'll keep these mice as "pets" for the next few feedings to leave a rat in with for a few hours prior to feeding. hopefully i can gradually work her up to eating small rats from these weaned ones, because she's definitely big enough for them.. she just has to man up. lol

Good to hear, glad she made the initial switch for you. A few more mousey rats and she won't care if they've ever come in contact with a mouse.

1.0 ball pythons - Koba
0.1 pitbull/lab - Cinnamon
0.1 collie/elkhound - Fluffy
0.2 children
1.0 boyfriend

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

I would give f/t rats a try. Much less intimidating :P

You could probably try the tough love approach for a month. Hold out until she takes the rat. 3-4 weeks without eating shouldn't hurt a snake that size.

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This is best solution. One of my "mousers" was easily converted to FT rats. Try feeding at night. Try leaving the room, and wait a few weeks before next feed. Then try zombie dance. If all that fails, give her the the mouse and have a small frozen rat available for piggy back feed. After the 1st mouse is 80% in, gently put the nose of the FT rat behind the butt of the disappearing mouse. Her swallowing reflex will have her to continue eating the rat. Eventually she will get the "taste" of rat, and take only rats.

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Originally Posted by creepin

my main question is, how long should i be stubborn and let her go without eating?...she's up to 5 or 600 grams.

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My answer: Very.

5 or 600 grams and stuck on mice, plenty big to take a 50-100 gram rat without difficulty in swallowing, your snake could go a month or more and still be perfectly healthy.

My advice when switching is to attempt to feed them when they are hungry and looking for food, not when you want them to eat.

edit: saw the update, congrats :D

I have had the exact same problem with my female bee when she was around 800g. She would only take mice and was afraid of rats. What I did was give her mice, but before i would let the mice sit infront of her tub (scenting) before i offered them to her. I tried a small rat the next feeding while scenting with mice and there was no luck. I had the problem with the rat bumping her and she would freak out into a head sping thing. So what i did was did the scenting again, then offered a weaned rat a tiny bit bigger than a mouse. She took it well. From there I worked up to a live small rat. before this she would refuse any frozen, but now she is pounding frozen small rats weekly. I think its not the mouse these bees get stuck on, its the size of the rat combined weith the wobble. Its almost as if they know that it impares there feeding respones and they have fear of the live larger rodent. Now my female be is 1100 grams and gaining for next season, looking for some killers! :)

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Originally Posted by AdamF

This is best solution. One of my "mousers" was easily converted to FT rats. Try feeding at night. Try leaving the room, and wait a few weeks before next feed. Then try zombie dance. If all that fails, give her the the mouse and have a small frozen rat available for piggy back feed. After the 1st mouse is 80% in, gently put the nose of the FT rat behind the butt of the disappearing mouse. Her swallowing reflex will have her to continue eating the rat. Eventually she will get the "taste" of rat, and take only rats.

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Personally, I would never force feed my snake like that. And why would you want to mess with them while they are eating? There are lots of ways to try to switch them to rats. Some snakes are just mousers and will never switch. But I wouldn't stuff something down my snakes throat, I would have a mouser before I did that.

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Glad you got the switch! I've tried everything with my girl and nothing. I starved her for two months and nothing. Some balls really at times won't take what you want them to buy would prefer what they've been on.

You can try a rat that is roughly the same size as the mice you're feeding. Or switch to F/T mice then to F/T rats.

Glad she took a rat for you and that you didn't have to resort to anything too desperate. I've heard of leaving a rat in the bedding but not of leaving one in with live mice...good tip to keep in mind if I ever get a mouser who won't convert, lol! Good luck with her and glad she's eating for you.

this was the first live weaned rat i could get my hands on, so it was smaller than a "small rat." i really think she was just more intimidated by the rats size but we'll see. hopefully i can get her to keep taking them. now that she took her first one without having to miss a few feedings i think i'm gonna start being stubborn with her and not let her have any more mice. lol i'm rootin for her.

and the reason i didn't want to be stubborn for a month or two is because i would ideally like to have her up to size by next winter. hoping it will be my first season breeding. lol

I had a hatchling Albino that would only eat live mice nothing else, Not even the same sized Rat rolled in mouse pee & poop! lol I got him to finally switch by feeding a smaller mouse and then followed by a smaller rat. That worked for the mouse switch but then came that same snake on the Frozen thawed switch and he would have no part of it and would rather STARVE. I figured that if I got the snake room darkened like night time and Gently opened the lid just a peek enough to get the Frozen Mouse or Rat along with the Tongs in and gave it a slow Nervous animal shake and BAM! (Works really well but in the dark you can sometimes get mistaken for food too! So keep the lid Barely open for the Tongs) Both worked well for my needs hope this helps anybody on the switch

A little bit out of the box, but you can try ASF rats?

If she takes mice I am sure she would love those... and they are just the right size for an adult BP.

But she might get stuck on those, but they are not very smelly so it might be nice to breed a couple.

Do not try soft fur rats.

Put the mouse and the rat in the same bag with the bedding and get the rat to smell like the mouse.

Or you can kill the rat and put the dead rat and live mouse in and she may eat both.

Or you can just keep feeding mice, but try to switch to frozen thawed it's much cheaper and u can get 3 for 1 live one.

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Originally Posted by snakeg

Do not try soft fur rats.

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Why not? If you can get them regularly.. why not? And don't tell me they "imprint" I switch from frozen rats/mice to live ASF with all of my ball pythons, and all of the adults will switch easily. Babies, not as much, but they are babies so they have a better excuse for being picky :P

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Originally Posted by snakeg

Or you can just keep feeding mice, but try to switch to frozen thawed it's much cheaper and u can get 3 for 1 live one.

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Actually if you set up a small colony you can grow them out even cheaper;)

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Originally Posted by snakeg

Do not try soft fur rats.

Put the mouse and the rat in the same bag with the bedding and get the rat to smell like the mouse.

Or you can kill the rat and put the dead rat and live mouse in and she may eat both.

Or you can just keep feeding mice, but try to switch to frozen thawed it's much cheaper and u can get 3 for 1 live one.

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How much experience do you have with ASFs and switching feed sources? I feed f/t rats, ASFs, live rats and have no problems switching from food source to food source. Switching to ASFs then using ASF bedding to scent Norway rats may be a good way to make the transition.