Building new Wooden Cages lots of questions.

I am about to undertake building all new wooden enclosures for the boas and balls. I would like suggestions on heating the all wood w/ plexiglass sliding door enclosures. I am thinking I will go with RHP from ReptileBasics I am working with one of the guys there on exact sizes but we are aiming for the 80w for the balls that will be in 4'x2'x18" enclosures and 120w for the boas that will be in 6'x2'x18" enclosures however I am finding varying information on rather or not this will maintain the temp gradient needed most of the bad reviews are in pvc cages will the wooden enclosure hold the temp gradient better. Also for the RHP do you recommend proportional or on/off style thermostats I am considering it will be better to hook each thermostat individually to each cage rather than one thermostat to control all RHP. If the RHP will not be sufficient should I also use belly heat in the form of an intellimat or flexwatt heat tape. my average room temp varies according to the season but generally between 65-75. for day night cycle we are going to use standard under cabinet mounting florescent one on either side of the cage with a white light and a black night for night viewing. We are trying to keep everything internal as these cages will be stacked. Substrate will be reptibark as we have found it to be the easiest to clean as well as less messier than aspen. We are also debating swing open doors or sliding doors so far everything we have found would suggest that sliding doors are more reliable at keeping the snakes in as they do not warp over time like the swing open would near the middle from being pushed on from the inside over time.
Also when treating the wood prior to building the cage what water sealant is best or should we paint with latex paint to make it easier to clean and more water resistant. with the RHP would it be better to mount it centered in each cage or off to one side. Also if I set the RHP to 90 degrees and place the probe directly under it will that be a sufficient thermostat heat setting. I have a pretty decent sized budget for this expenditure and am hoping to set everything up with optimal management of heat humidity and overall clean look of things. I do not like the animal plastics or the boaphiles for several different reasons but main one is simply just my taste I prefer the look of wood we will have only 8 snakes and do not intend to get more than that 5 are already here and I will be buying 1 more boa and 2 more balls with in a couple of years and duplicating DIY cages is much easier than ensuring that a company is still carrying your exact cage. Each cage will also have its own sonic mister.

To recap from my large explanation and paragraph of questions

RHP?'s
1. 80w for the 4'x2'x18" and 120w for the 6'x2'x18" enclosures - Is this sufficient or do I need another heat source to maintain the gradient in a cooler room? - heating the room not an option
2. Mount RHP centered or to one side? - for best results overall
3. do you recommend proportional or on/off style thermostats? Why or Why not please?

Doors
1. Is sliding glass or swing open better for long term use with minimal replacement?

Thermostats
1. What temp would you set the RHP to on an on/off?
2. What temp would you set the RHP to on a proportional?

Treating or Painting wood?
1. What would you treat the wood first with as a sealant?
2. If no sealant would a latex paint be better for cleaning and uping the water resistance?

Lighting?
1. Would it be ok to use under cabinet mounting lights one with a white bulb one with a black bulb for day night cycle and night viewing? Why or Why not? Alternative suggestions?

im gonna try and answer your question in the order you asked. let me start by saying that i am very familiar with all the equiptment you asked about because i just finished building almost the exact cages that you are describing. i built 5) ball python cages at 2x2x4 and 2 boa cages at 2x2x7. ok RHP 80watt for 4x2x18 is the perfect size( a bit over kill but no problem on a thermostat.120 for 6x2x18 is also a good size. i use 88w in 4x2x2 , and 135w in 7x2x2. my temps on the hot side are 86deg. ambiant ,92 deg baskingand 79deg. cool side. Mount the heat panel off to one side, about 6" from the edge this will create a good gradiant. Either proportional or on/off thermostats will work but proportional will give you a much more even and accurate temp. Doors.... definately glass sliding doors. Swing doors tend to want to warp leaving an easy escape, also its nice not to have to keep moving out of the way of swinging doors! Thermostats....the temps would be set the same in either proportional or on/off mode but when you use on/off mode its the "swing" setting that is important.On herpstats you can set how much of a temp swing you want. I personally have my probe set on the cool side at 79deg. this way i am able to give my animals optimal heat gradiants.They will self regulate if you give them the right temps. Treating the wood.... use several coats of polyurathane! it is by far the best thing to seal out moisture.Caulk all seals after poly dries. allow enough time for caulk to cure and all fumes to ventalate

lighting.... you can use undercabinet fluorescent lights but i am not a big fan of having a light on at night, I just worry it will disturb their sleep cycle. Another possiblity for lighting is LED strip lights. I used them in my cage and love them . They are very low profile, minimal heat build up, and very cheap to run. The quality of light is amazing, the colors of my snakes just "POP" ! I hope i answered all your questions and that i helped you?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by norwegn113

im gonna try and answer your question in the order you asked. let me start by saying that i am very familiar with all the equiptment you asked about because i just finished building almost the exact cages that you are describing. i built 5) ball python cages at 2x2x4 and 2 boa cages at 2x2x7. ok RHP 80watt for 4x2x18 is the perfect size( a bit over kill but no problem on a thermostat.120 for 6x2x18 is also a good size. i use 88w in 4x2x2 , and 135w in 7x2x2. my temps on the hot side are 86deg. ambiant ,92 deg baskingand 79deg. cool side. Mount the heat panel off to one side, about 6" from the edge this will create a good gradiant. Either proportional or on/off thermostats will work but proportional will give you a much more even and accurate temp. Doors.... definately glass sliding doors. Swing doors tend to want to warp leaving an easy escape, also its nice not to have to keep moving out of the way of swinging doors! Thermostats....the temps would be set the same in either proportional or on/off mode but when you use on/off mode its the "swing" setting that is important.On herpstats you can set how much of a temp swing you want. I personally have my probe set on the cool side at 79deg. this way i am able to give my animals optimal heat gradiants.They will self regulate if you give them the right temps. Treating the wood.... use several coats of polyurathane! it is by far the best thing to seal out moisture.Caulk all seals after poly dries. allow enough time for caulk to cure and all fumes to ventalate

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Sounds good a bit over kill is ok with me as it will be on a thermostat and my home temps can get pretty low especially in the few months of winter we get here and evening desert drops. I am considering the herpstat intro since I want each cage to have its own thermostat or possible the herpstat 2 since it will allow humidity control as well http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2753198&f=PAD%2FpsNotAvailInUS%2FNo is what I am looking to use for humidity since I am in west texas and our summers are extremely dry. Opinions? is Polyurathane a paint on? and how much would it take to cover 8 cages 4 4x2x18 and 4 6x2x18

Quote:

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Originally Posted by norwegn113

lighting.... you can use undercabinet fluorescent lights but i am not a big fan of having a light on at night, I just worry it will disturb their sleep cycle. Another possiblity for lighting is LED strip lights. I used them in my cage and love them . They are very low profile, minimal heat build up, and very cheap to run. The quality of light is amazing, the colors of my snakes just "POP" ! I hope i answered all your questions and that i helped you?

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If not black light what would you recommend for night viewing? We are up pretty long hours compared to their day night cycle the black light would be shut off once we actually went to bed as 8 cages in my room running the entire length of one wall leaving them on would be a bit bright for my liking - my bedroom is a converted garage so taking 2 foot off of the length not really an issue

I have to be honest, I am not familiar with the ultrasonic fogger you posted or how it works so i cant give you an opinion about it. I am using a Pro-mist system from Pro-products on a short cycle duration timer. It works well for me. I also use their radiant heat panels, they have the best warranty in the business (10 years on their panels, 4 years on the mist pump.) Yes the poly is a brush on application and for 8 cages I would say you would need about 2 gallons. I like the water based poly by Varathane. Quick question, instead of getting 8 separate thermostats why don't you just get 2) Herpstat4, one for the 4 foot cages and one for the 6 foot cages? One unit will monitor 4 separate cages.

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Originally Posted by norwegn113

I have to be honest, I am not familiar with the ultrasonic fogger you posted or how it works so i cant give you an opinion about it. I am using a Pro-mist system from Pro-products on a short cycle duration timer. It works well for me. I also use their radiant heat panels, they have the best warranty in the business (10 years on their panels, 4 years on the mist pump.) Yes the poly is a brush on application and for 8 cages I would say you would need about 2 gallons. I like the water based poly by Varathane. Quick question, instead of getting 8 separate thermostats why don't you just get 2) Herpstat4, one for the 4 foot cages and one for the 6 foot cages? One unit will monitor 4 separate cages.

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I have been tossing that idea around as well with the herpstat 4 but then would need 4 herpstat 4's 2 for heat and 2 for misting/humidity, I looked into the pro-mist but it seemed like alot of work especially since I want the cages to stack but I also would like each unit to run on its own another reason that I am considering spending the extra money to get the herpstat intro or herpstat 2 for each cage. Working on the safer than sorry method of if something went wrong in one cage it would be wrong in multiples if they where all connected. Like one misting system for all cages if for some reason the water got contaminated everyone would be contaminated if the misting system failed and just made a mess then I have 8 messes to clean up

The ultra sonic mister requires a small cup or water dish to be placed in and it periodically much like an aerator for aquariums will turn some of the water into a fine mist I currently have one in my daughters leopard gecko cage and it works great the mist is super fine and if not on a regulator then you can set it to a timer and it works just as well my daughters is on a basic timer and it goes off once an hour for 5 seconds and it maintains a 60% humidity if set on low it produces this small thin mist layer kinda like morning dew

that sounds like a great product.

RHP?'s
1. 80w for the 4'x2'x18" and 120w for the 6'x2'x18" enclosures - Is this sufficient or do I need another heat source to maintain the gradient in a cooler room? - heating the room not an option

It is unlikely a RHP or UTH will be enough you will need something to heat the air, as both radiant heat panels and Radiant heat tape heat air some sort of light system will likely be needed.

2. Mount RHP centered or to one side? - for best results overall
Why RHPs at all? I would suggest that if you forego the wood bottom and use PVC as a bottom. It is durable, easily cleaned, waterproof, and heats through very well so a traditional UTH could be used that eliminates some of the issues with RHPs (like safe probe placement and min distances most say 18-22 inches)

3. do you recommend proportional or on/off style thermostats? Why or Why not please?

Proportional, if you have a cool room on off types tend to have heat spikes and larger amounts of swing the accuracy is also at least 1/2 that of the proportional units and in some cases 1/4.

Doors
1. Is sliding glass or swing open better for long term use with minimal replacement?

Swing open doors are difficult to do with glass. Sliding doors are easier to use glass with although they are heavy and fragile and can be costly. Plexi scratches easily but is easier to work with and lighter. 50/50 there is no clear advantage one over the other pick what is easiest.

Thermostats
1. What temp would you set the RHP to on an on/off?
2. What temp would you set the RHP to on a proportional?

No one can say it depends on the ambient temps. I have used RHPs and would simply not bother unless I was using an arboreal enclosure. The gradient is mush easier to hold vertically than horizontally. Most of the panels on the market have min distances that are taller than you planned enclosures some choose to experiment with under this but I personally would not suggest it.

Treating or Painting wood?
1. What would you treat the wood first with as a sealant?
2. If no sealant would a latex paint be better for cleaning and uping the water resistance?

The toughest and most resistant to water would be marine epoxy, hardest to work with too. Liner polyurethane paints would be next but they too are very difficult to work with. Not to mention wicked expensive (100$ a quart last time I used any) regular polyurethane would be next, then modified urethanes (water based) latex on the bottom. Remember to bake the paint for a few days at 80º to force out gassing I would allow at least 7 days to fully cure and longer until I could smell no paint smell at all.

Lighting?
1. Would it be ok to use under cabinet mounting lights one with a white bulb one with a black bulb for day night cycle and night viewing? Why or Why not? Alternative suggestions?

I would use a FL under cabinet light white during the day but NEVER use black lights at all. Although Royal pythons have UV protection on the spectacle scale and it is not a big part of their visual spectrum you don't. Black lights have UVa,b and c. This is why people were sunglasses with UV protection, melanoma is linked to UVc It is not good for YOU. i would look to blue lights but NOT blacklight regular blue coloured LED or Blue gel over white but not a 'blacklight' bulb.

[/QUOTE]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

RHP?'s

2. Mount RHP centered or to one side? - for best results overall
Why RHPs at all? I would suggest that if you forego the wood bottom and use PVC as a bottom. It is durable, easily cleaned, waterproof, and heats through very well so a traditional UTH could be used that eliminates some of the issues with RHPs (like safe probe placement and min distances most say 18-22 inches)

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Do not mount the panel in such a way that the lens is closer than 6 inches from a cage surface Quote from reptile basics RHP q&a
which panels are you referencing that require a larger distance the ones I am considering from reptile basics have a safety feature built in as well as only recommend a 6 in minimum distance and it will be over a foot of distance

I am not trying to argue with you but I would like references as there are many out there that recommend the RHP and many that have great success with it heating the overall enclosure especially with all wood a pvc bottom is not an option and using external heat tape as they will be stacked

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

1. 80w for the 4'x2'x18" and 120w for the 6'x2'x18" enclosures - Is this sufficient or do I need another heat source to maintain the gradient in a cooler room? - heating the room not an option

It is unlikely a RHP or UTH will be enough you will need something to heat the air, as both radiant heat panels and Radiant heat tape heat air some sort of light system will likely be needed.

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What sort of lighting system I currently have 2 4x2x2 cages and they take 3 lights apiece top mount for an ambient of only 78 and hot spot of 92 and that has to be 12" from under the hottest of lights and are all top mount. I am looking to move everything internal so that I can stack cages.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Lighting?
1. Would it be ok to use under cabinet mounting lights one with a white bulb one with a black bulb for day night cycle and night viewing? Why or Why not? Alternative suggestions?

I would use a FL under cabinet light white during the day but NEVER use black lights at all. Although Royal pythons have UV protection on the spectacle scale and it is not a big part of their visual spectrum you don't. Black lights have UVa,b and c. This is why people were sunglasses with UV protection, melanoma is linked to UVc It is not good for YOU. i would look to blue lights but NOT blacklight regular blue coloured LED or Blue gel over white but not a 'blacklight' bulb.

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What kind of blue gel?

- - - Updated - - -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

RHP?'s

2. Mount RHP centered or to one side? - for best results overall
Why RHPs at all? I would suggest that if you forego the wood bottom and use PVC as a bottom. It is durable, easily cleaned, waterproof, and heats through very well so a traditional UTH could be used that eliminates some of the issues with RHPs (like safe probe placement and min distances most say 18-22 inches)

---

Do not mount the panel in such a way that the lens is closer than 6 inches from a cage surface Quote from reptile basics RHP q&a
which panels are you referencing that require a larger distance the ones I am considering from reptile basics have a safety feature built in as well as only recommend a 6 in minimum distance and it will be over a foot of distance

I am not trying to argue with you but I would like references as there are many out there that recommend the RHP and many that have great success with it heating the overall enclosure especially with all wood a pvc bottom is not an option and using external heat tape as they will be stacked

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

1. 80w for the 4'x2'x18" and 120w for the 6'x2'x18" enclosures - Is this sufficient or do I need another heat source to maintain the gradient in a cooler room? - heating the room not an option

It is unlikely a RHP or UTH will be enough you will need something to heat the air, as both radiant heat panels and Radiant heat tape heat air some sort of light system will likely be needed.

---

What sort of lighting system I currently have 2 4x2x2 cages and they take 3 lights apiece top mount for an ambient of only 78 and hot spot of 92 and that has to be 12" from under the hottest of lights and are all top mount. I am looking to move everything internal so that I can stack cages.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Lighting?
1. Would it be ok to use under cabinet mounting lights one with a white bulb one with a black bulb for day night cycle and night viewing? Why or Why not? Alternative suggestions?

I would use a FL under cabinet light white during the day but NEVER use black lights at all. Although Royal pythons have UV protection on the spectacle scale and it is not a big part of their visual spectrum you don't. Black lights have UVa,b and c. This is why people were sunglasses with UV protection, melanoma is linked to UVc It is not good for YOU. i would look to blue lights but NOT blacklight regular blue coloured LED or Blue gel over white but not a 'blacklight' bulb.

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What kind of blue gel?

The panels from pro helix reptile radiator and there is a German company I don't recall the name of all suggest a min distance of at least 15 inches and some as much as 22. RHPs are designed for arboreal set ups and animals that bask. Royal pythons are neither. Even with a 6 inch for surfaces it means very little room for a hide. When you factor that if the interior is 12 inches tall there is only 10 inches free air inside. I have been running an on going test on a RHP (almost a year now) the results are simple it is not efficient in low terrestrial enclosures. Yes it works but has lots of problems it always generates a vertical gradient top to bottom. You can choose to set the temp for the hide top or floor beside the hide or the floor under the hide. All three locations are different. It is a radiant source so direct line of sight much like the sun. When you go to the beach the sand that is out in the sun is way hot but the sand that has been in shadow all day is not. The hot side hide casts a shadow for the IR from the panel dropping the temp dramatically. The top is hotter than the bottom the outside hotter than the inside. There is no way around this. Probe placement is hard as well there should never be a situation where a snake can shadow a probe from the heat source unless it can easily move under the probe location to a lower level. Where do you place the probe? The only solution I found is to dangle it from the panel centre. It is hard to fully secure so it is ridged. Some have used a hard 90º elbow and glued this to the floor pointing up these two seem to be the best neither is good. IMO RHP do not belong in enclosures less that 16-18 inches and are best used as designed vertically. Yes they can be adapted to a horizontal situation but the additional cost and complication for what gain so the snake can bask?

A PVC floor is superior in every way to wood, UTH run heat floor to ceiling so the hottest spot is where the snake will be rather than setting the hottest spot to where the snake is not and using the coolest location of the cage to be the correct temp for the snake. Anything about this is too hot. How does this seem like a good idea? It is a solution to a problem you have not made yet the wooden enclosure floor.


I use a 2 foot fluorescent tube in a 24x30x14 enclosure with a room temp of 66º it holds 76-79ºF ambient (sole heat source) the face of the lights hit about 90-100º 60º-100º less than RHPs It heats air not objects (like RHPs) so they make a great air heater as well as lights. The blue LED electronics run about 8-10º cooler so they do well over night.

If you choose to gel a fluorescent light I would use Rosco gels they will take the heat no problem. I would still suggest LED over this.
http://www.rosco.com/filters/index.cfm

being new to this forum, I do not want to offend anyone but i have to say that I totally disagree with the information you provided. radiant heat panels ARE a very efficient way to provide an excellent gradiant. The problem with radiant heat is that it cant be accurately be measured by itself like objects that heat the air. Here is a perfect example, take a 30 deg. cloudy day and go outside wearing a white shirt, you will feel cold. Now take the same 30deg day add some Sun and put on a black shirt and you will feel warm ,if not sweat. However it was still 30 deg in both situations according to the thermometer. radiant heat warms objects which in turn heat the air,raising ambiant temps as a byproduct. In nature ball pythons spend most of their time hiding termite mounds or animal burrows that have been warmed by the OVERHEAD heat of the suns rays. there is no such thing as "belly heat" in the wild,only basking. Im not sure how you have your panels set up but mine work perfectly. I measure ambiant temps on the hot side at 86deg, cool side temps are set at 79 deg. and surface temps are measured by infrared gun at 92 deg. on the basking rock directly under the panel. I use a large flat rock to absorb the heat and warm the air. As for probe placement, I have my thermostat prob on the cool side and it is set to 79deg. ,the hot side stays at 86 deg. I place the probe on the cool side because even if the snake shadows the probe its still in no danger of overheating and if it goes back to the hot side it will no longer be shadowing the probe, therefore correcting the problem. Snakes are very smart and will self regulate if you give them both a cool sidde and a hot side

bottom line is if your panels are sized correctly and are on a proportional thermostat, and you are not getting satisfactory results , then something is wrong with the setup. wood enclosures offer superior insulating factors, and despite what many may think there are ways to use UTH in the floor if built correctly. There is more than just one type of material that can be used with excellent results. Its up to the individuals to choose what works best for their situations and budgets.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by norwegn113

bottom line is if your panels are sized correctly and are on a proportional thermostat, and you are not getting satisfactory results , then something is wrong with the setup. wood enclosures offer superior insulating factors, and despite what many may think there are ways to use UTH in the floor if built correctly. There is more than just one type of material that can be used with excellent results. Its up to the individuals to choose what works best for their situations and budgets.

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I would have to agree I have been researching this build for the past 6 month in preparation for it when you are looking to drop close to 4000 dollars on an all new set up for multiple reptiles being well informed and doing your research is key instead of building something sub standard and fixing fubars as they come along generally always when you are not in the position to change things majorly in your budget to fix them with out sacrificing something I am a bookkeeper and tax preparer so over the next few month is the highest cash flow in my house ie build time not to mention every body is going through a growth spurt and a cage up-sizing is in order for them in the last 2 sheds alone the BP's have added little over half a foot and the boas have added almost as much as well their current caging will not outlast the growth of another year with out going below 1 sq ft per ft of snake and I like to have 2 sq ft which is what they started at. I am building 5 -8 new cages I haven't decided if I am building the cages for the snakes that are not planned to be bought until this summer yet or not and 2 new lizard enclosures with cabinetry to house their breeding colony food source dubia's. I am confident that when it is all said and done I will not go over my budget but panels and thermostats and humidity control alone will take half the budget to secure, I am quite sure that with 2000 I can acquire all the wood and Plexiglas needed for my builds as the first cage I built was only about 100 in material my time and tools well I love my animals

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

The panels from pro helix reptile radiator and there is a German company I don't recall the name of all suggest a min distance of at least 15 inches and some as much as 22. RHPs are designed for arboreal set ups and animals that bask. Royal pythons are neither. Even with a 6 inch for surfaces it means very little room for a hide. When you factor that if the interior is 12 inches tall there is only 10 inches free air inside. I have been running an on going test on a RHP (almost a year now) the results are simple it is not efficient in low terrestrial enclosures. Yes it works but has lots of problems it always generates a vertical gradient top to bottom. You can choose to set the temp for the hide top or floor beside the hide or the floor under the hide. All three locations are different. It is a radiant source so direct line of sight much like the sun. When you go to the beach the sand that is out in the sun is way hot but the sand that has been in shadow all day is not. The hot side hide casts a shadow for the IR from the panel dropping the temp dramatically. The top is hotter than the bottom the outside hotter than the inside. There is no way around this. Probe placement is hard as well there should never be a situation where a snake can shadow a probe from the heat source unless it can easily move under the probe location to a lower level. Where do you place the probe? The only solution I found is to dangle it from the panel centre. It is hard to fully secure so it is ridged. Some have used a hard 90º elbow and glued this to the floor pointing up these two seem to be the best neither is good. IMO RHP do not belong in enclosures less that 16-18 inches and are best used as designed vertically. Yes they can be adapted to a horizontal situation but the additional cost and complication for what gain so the snake can bask?

A PVC floor is superior in every way to wood, UTH run heat floor to ceiling so the hottest spot is where the snake will be rather than setting the hottest spot to where the snake is not and using the coolest location of the cage to be the correct temp for the snake. Anything about this is too hot. How does this seem like a good idea? It is a solution to a problem you have not made yet the wooden enclosure floor.


I use a 2 foot fluorescent tube in a 24x30x14 enclosure with a room temp of 66º it holds 76-79ºF ambient (sole heat source) the face of the lights hit about 90-100º 60º-100º less than RHPs It heats air not objects (like RHPs) so they make a great air heater as well as lights. The blue LED electronics run about 8-10º cooler so they do well over night.

If you choose to gel a fluorescent light I would use Rosco gels they will take the heat no problem. I would still suggest LED over this.
http://www.rosco.com/filters/index.cfm

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The cages I am building will have an internal height of 18 in the minimum recommended distance is 6 in that to start with will give me 10 in of free space considering the RHP is aprox 2 in thick plus 6 in minimum I am pretty sure I can fit a hide with in 10 inches of free height space and have some to spare I am not sure what you are using to get that I would start with only 10 inches of space when by all consideration I start with 18 in before the panels is installed and only loose 1.75in after installing

It is your choice it just seems more complex and expensive for no gain. If the enclosures were complete it is a different issue then it is the only option but with a cheaper and easier option (better in terms of cleaning for certain) I see no reason why. Perhaps more useful with boas as they are semi arboreal and actually may benifit from basking but balls? It is just another adapt a product to do something it wasn't designed to do moment. I have two panels from rb. It works ok but runs cool as I simply refuse to have the top of the hide warmer than 94 degrees and that means the floor is 88 ok I guess but with a uth the floor is 90 spot on and the hide top 88 perfect the correct temp where the snake is and nothing inside is warmer. I only use one now and that is for a bearded dragon it is perfect for him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

It is your choice it just seems more complex and expensive for no gain. If the enclosures were complete it is a different issue then it is the only option but with a cheaper and easier option (better in terms of cleaning for certain) I see no reason why. Perhaps more useful with boas as they are semi arboreal and actually may benifit from basking but balls? It is just another adapt a product to do something it wasn't designed to do moment. I have two panels from rb. It works ok but runs cool as I simply refuse to have the top of the hide warmer than 94 degrees and that means the floor is 88 ok I guess but with a uth the floor is 90 spot on and the hide top 88 perfect the correct temp where the snake is and nothing inside is warmer. I only use one now and that is for a bearded dragon it is perfect for him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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I use natural hides for the most part made of hollowed and sanded wood so that the inside is a smooth surface treated and baked to sterilize and cook off any vapors from sealing I never put a hide directly under a heat source I use basking rocks and branches with various cover I have a basking tree in one enclosure now that has a thin line of bamboo around it so that it appears secluded and I have a basking rock in another with a artificial bluegrass outlining that makes the rock feel more secure for my bp and bp do bask they have to regulate their temp just as any other snake would they are not an exception to the rule many will stay in a hide all day if that is where they feel the most secure however it is quite a different story when your snake feels really secure and you watch it roam around its cage day after day finding a new basking or cooling spot or returning to a favorite one and I have one baby bp not even a year old yet that wanders and explores all the varying degrees of hiding spot in a 4 ft enclosure and hardly ever balls up because it feels very secure sure for the first couple of weeks as it got use to the enclosure it ventured out of the hide just a lil and would return soon after and day by day it slowly found its way every where and currently rarely uses its hide mostly it likes to rest under the rock ledge that is only covered on the back and top or in the grass on the basking rock under a che. And no the cage is not built yet that doesn't mean that I haven't started acquiring material like I said this has been a 6 month research project coming into this on heating humidity lighting substrate and so forth to come into the design the dimensions and type of material haven't changed why you ask well because I already have most of the cage itself material from a build I did a few months ago for a friend

You are forcing you BP to choose either security or heat. This is against most (all) methods anyone else uses I have ever known. The hides are always recommended on the hot and cool areas. Everyone I know chooses not force a very secretive animal to violate its instinct. So I will rephrase they do not bask in the wild or naturally it is not an instinctual behaviour they are nocturnal.

Go with the RHP, although I would use Epoxy or LP to seal the floor urinates attack paint and becomes difficult to clean. I would still recommend the PVC floor.

Question as a RHP is just a strip of flexwatt in a box, what is the advantage over flexwatt under the floor? Radiant heat is radiant heat either way it has the exact same properties.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

You are forcing you BP to choose either security or heat. This is against most (all) methods anyone else uses I have ever known. The hides are always recommended on the hot and cool areas. Everyone I know chooses not force a very secretive animal to violate its instinct. So I will rephrase they do not bask in the wild or naturally it is not an instinctual behaviour they are nocturnal.

Go with the RHP, although I would use Epoxy or LP to seal the floor urinates attack paint and becomes difficult to clean. I would still recommend the PVC floor.

Question as a RHP is just a strip of flexwatt in a box, what is the advantage over flexwatt under the floor? Radiant heat is radiant heat either way it has the exact same properties.

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You are correct that radiant heat goes against the industry standard because it is still a very new product and many people still are not using it because of a few factors. (1) the cost is MUCH higher than a heat lamp and bulb.... Initially ,but heat lamps burn out and lose intensity in time. manufacturers recommend changing these bulbs once a year and @ roughly $10.00 ea/100W in 10 years that's $100.00 ( the cost of my panel to start with, plus the initial cost of the lamp itself. We wont even talk about electric savings in a 10 year period when you're talking about 100W VS 88W per hour.(2) Many people do not understand the way radiant heat works and because it cant be measured using standard techniques they automatically assume that the product is not doing what it is supposed to, when in fact it is working just fine!! Using Flexwatt as an UTH is not the same as using RHP. UTH only warms the ground directly on top of its location, therefore leaving the rest of the tanks ambient air too cool. Flexwatt in most applications is used in conjunction with some sort of CHE or heat lamp to warm air temps. If you just warm the ground under the animal and the air temps are not correct you are leaving yourself open to RI's You are very limited to the temps that you can set your UTH at due to the fact that your animal is laying on top of it! RHP mount on the top of the cage and other than the occasional "brush up against" your animal will never come in contact with it and your animal definitely can't lay on it, so the temps can run much higher than a UTH. So you will only need 1 piece of equipment vs 2.Every scientific break through is plagued with its nay Sayers because people are afraid of change and like what they feel comfortable with. I personally use RHP and can tell you without a doubt that they work excellently for my ball Pythons. I don't mean to sound like a jerk but Just because one person doesn't like them doesn't mean the product is junk. I'm sure Zoo-Med will love your continued support over the next 25 years of your animals life, me I'm gonna take my savings and buy some really cool morphs!

Dark Lady , I also have to say that you are spot on with your figures too about 8 cages costing about $4,000.00. ( go figure an accountant being right with their numbers!) lol. The 7 cages I built cost me $3,900.00 all said and finished! I can tell that you have put in alot of time and effort in research. You are well on your way to making some very cool cages it sounds like. My advice would be is, continue to do research and get the "collective" opinion as no one person is the authority on any thing . That includes me. I may be talking out my Butt , but this is what has worked for me! Here are a few pics of my cages while they were under construction. I do not have any finished pics of them yet but when I get some I will post them. The inserts sit inside the framework that you see to form a "tower" that is 3 separate 2x2x4 cages stacked to make the overall unit 7 foot tall by 4 foot wide! the other tower has 4 separate cages (2) 2x2x7 and (2) 2x2x3'-6" all stacked to make it 7 foot tall by 7 foot wide. both towers match each other!http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/...psb5a14c31.jpghttp://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/...psbfa56293.jpghttp://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/...ps386e4f4a.jpghttp://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/...ps89bbcb61.jpghttp://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/...psbdc24c5d.jpg
http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4a736112.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by norwegn113

You are correct that radiant heat goes against the industry standard because it is still a very new product and many people still are not using it because of a few factors. (1) the cost is MUCH higher than a heat lamp and bulb.... Initially ,but heat lamps burn out and lose intensity in time. manufacturers recommend changing these bulbs once a year and @ roughly $10.00 ea/100W in 10 years that's $100.00 ( the cost of my panel to start with, plus the initial cost of the lamp itself. We wont even talk about electric savings in a 10 year period when you're talking about 100W VS 88W per hour.(2) Many people do not understand the way radiant heat works and because it cant be measured using standard techniques they automatically assume that the product is not doing what it is supposed to, when in fact it is working just fine!! Using Flexwatt as an UTH is not the same as using RHP. UTH only warms the ground directly on top of its location, therefore leaving the rest of the tanks ambient air too cool. Flexwatt in most applications is used in conjunction with some sort of CHE or heat lamp to warm air temps. If you just warm the ground under the animal and the air temps are not correct you are leaving yourself open to RI's You are very limited to the temps that you can set your UTH at due to the fact that your animal is laying on top of it! RHP mount on the top of the cage and other than the occasional "brush up against" your animal will never come in contact with it and your animal definitely can't lay on it, so the temps can run much higher than a UTH. So you will only need 1 piece of equipment vs 2.Every scientific break through is plagued with its nay Sayers because people are afraid of change and like what they feel comfortable with. I personally use RHP and can tell you without a doubt that they work excellently for my ball Pythons. I don't mean to sound like a jerk but Just because one person doesn't like them doesn't mean the product is junk. I'm sure Zoo-Med will love your continued support over the next 25 years of your animals life, me I'm gonna take my savings and buy some really cool morphs!

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Clearly you didn't read what I said correctly. I said that locating a hot spot and hide in a different location is not the way any care sheet or any authority suggests perhaps you should read a few your self as you clearly have not based on the pictures you posted. Hides are best located on the hot and cool spots so the snake does not need to choose between thermoregulating and security. Many snakes will not and remain in a secure area and not regulate at all stop feeding, digesting and die.

It also is clear that you do not understand what radiant heat is how it works or what it does. This describes radiant heat very simply. It is the little sun icon... http://www.wisc-online.com/Objects/V...aspx?ID=sce304

It is what 4.6 billion years old now... Yup that is new. They have been in the hobby for what 20 years? New? I guess if 4.6 billion is. Radiant heat does not heat air. You speak like you believe there is a huge difference between Radiant floor heating and radiant ceiling heating. The difference is in the ceiling closer you are to the panel the hotter it gets. The floor the farther you are away the cooler it gets. The hot spot is set to the correct temp and with overhead it drops as you move away from this. perfect for arboreal snakes, green tree pythons for example you set the hot spot for the top most branches and the lower branches drop in temp. Exactly correct. You seem to believe that setting for the floor and having anything not on the floor over the ideal is correct. The fact is a momentary touch is not a problem true but a core temp of 104º causes permanent neurological damage. There should not be any way for a snake to get between the probe and heat source. This creates a problem with terrestrial enclosures where to place and secure the probe it cannot move but also cannot be on the floor. The best location would be glued to the face? the wall? Both will generate false positive and result in variable temps beyond the expected range.

You seem to think that RHPs use some magic method of heating when the truth is they use a carbon resistive film, heat tape, is a carbon resistive film (flexwatt) so the flexwatt in the RHP and under an enclosure are the same. The end result on ambient temps are ... the same. They both heat objects that in turn heat the air. You photo has what seems to be a block of stone perhaps that is what is heating your air temp if there were a UTH under it the result would be exactly the same. RHP were designed to heat arboreal enclosures and simply do not perform being adapted to terrestrial. I never said they didn't work just that they are not as efficient (UTH has less loss as it heats exactly what needs to be heated) and costly compared in the terrestrial set up.

Your discussion of cost savings... flexwatt is 5$ for a one foot piece and using less power. So in my estimation you spent more heating the enclosure with a RHP and higher initial price is far far higher 12 times or so. I'll take my savings and buy a good thermometer. I guess you are using a (in) accurite as a non standard way? What standard is I can't imagine. You do know your model is spec'd at +/-2ºC (just under 4ºF up or down). I measure my RHP with a ultrafast response Platinum tip RTD I can accurately measure the output of the panel directly and ambient air temps with a 'standard' shaded measurement. I am not an accountant but I figure higher initial cost (60$/40w RHP and 5$/10w heat tape.) and higher operational cost is ahhh higher cost.?

YOU DON"T HAVE A THERMOSTAT!!!! The single most important part of any and all heating systems. This is not suggested by any manufacturer of RHPs it is also not recommended by any knowledgeable keeper!


RHPs run easily to 190º mine at 14 inches during testing hit 137º this is too hot. ALL heat sources need to be regulated.

Reptile basics instructions on RHPs "If your RHP is properly set up on a thermostat you will not generally see even these temperatures"

helix controls "We recommend using a high quality thermostat, especially if the panel is to be used in an enclosed environment. A Helix Proportional Thermostat, such as the DBS-1000"

You are the only person mentioning heat lamps or CHEs. I would not suggest using either unless there was no better options, and I would never suggest a red heat lamp under any circumstances due to the nature of heat hunting snakes.

You always need a thermostat so your "I only need one thing" is actually I need to run out and buy a thermostat proportional one at that due to the nature of RHPs clicking on max and off is not a good idea. While you are at it a better hide, that wood log hide is not the best for BPs, oh and you should have two just like the care sheets say. You don't sound like a jerk you sound like you don't have a clue of what you are talking about.

Terrestrial enclosures are easier to heat with UTH systems, RHPs are great but best suited to arboreal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Clearly you didn't read what I said correctly. I said that locating a hot spot and hide in a different location is not the way any care sheet or any authority suggests perhaps you should read a few your self as you clearly have not based on the pictures you posted. Hides are best located on the hot and cool spots so the snake does not need to choose between thermoregulating and security. Many snakes will not and remain in a secure area and not regulate at all stop feeding, digesting and die.

It also is clear that you do not understand what radiant heat is how it works or what it does. This describes radiant heat very simply. It is the little sun icon... http://www.wisc-online.com/Objects/V...aspx?ID=sce304

It is what 4.6 billion years old now... Yup that is new. They have been in the hobby for what 20 years? New? I guess if 4.6 billion is. Radiant heat does not heat air. You speak like you believe there is a huge difference between Radiant floor heating and radiant ceiling heating. The difference is in the ceiling closer you are to the panel the hotter it gets. The floor the farther you are away the cooler it gets. The hot spot is set to the correct temp and with overhead it drops as you move away from this. perfect for arboreal snakes, green tree pythons for example you set the hot spot for the top most branches and the lower branches drop in temp. Exactly correct. You seem to believe that setting for the floor and having anything not on the floor over the ideal is correct. The fact is a momentary touch is not a problem true but a core temp of 104º causes permanent neurological damage. There should not be any way for a snake to get between the probe and heat source. This creates a problem with terrestrial enclosures where to place and secure the probe it cannot move but also cannot be on the floor. The best location would be glued to the face? the wall? Both will generate false positive and result in variable temps beyond the expected range.

You seem to think that RHPs use some magic method of heating when the truth is they use a carbon resistive film, heat tape, is a carbon resistive film (flexwatt) so the flexwatt in the RHP and under an enclosure are the same. The end result on ambient temps are ... the same. They both heat objects that in turn heat the air. You photo has what seems to be a block of stone perhaps that is what is heating your air temp if there were a UTH under it the result would be exactly the same. RHP were designed to heat arboreal enclosures and simply do not perform being adapted to terrestrial. I never said they didn't work just that they are not as efficient (UTH has less loss as it heats exactly what needs to be heated) and costly compared in the terrestrial set up.

Your discussion of cost savings... flexwatt is 5$ for a one foot piece and using less power. So in my estimation you spent more heating the enclosure with a RHP and higher initial price is far far higher 12 times or so. I'll take my savings and buy a good thermometer. I guess you are using a (in) accurite as a non standard way? What standard is I can't imagine. You do know your model is spec'd at +/-2ºC (just under 4ºF up or down). I measure my RHP with a ultrafast response Platinum tip RTD I can accurately measure the output of the panel directly and ambient air temps with a 'standard' shaded measurement. I am not an accountant but I figure higher initial cost (60$/40w RHP and 5$/10w heat tape.) and higher operational cost is ahhh higher cost.?

YOU DON"T HAVE A THERMOSTAT!!!! The single most important part of any and all heating systems. This is not suggested by any manufacturer of RHPs it is also not recommended by any knowledgeable keeper!


RHPs run easily to 190º mine at 14 inches during testing hit 137º this is too hot. ALL heat sources need to be regulated.

Reptile basics instructions on RHPs "If your RHP is properly set up on a thermostat you will not generally see even these temperatures"

helix controls "We recommend using a high quality thermostat, especially if the panel is to be used in an enclosed environment. A Helix Proportional Thermostat, such as the DBS-1000"

You are the only person mentioning heat lamps or CHEs. I would not suggest using either unless there was no better options, and I would never suggest a red heat lamp under any circumstances due to the nature of heat hunting snakes.

You always need a thermostat so your "I only need one thing" is actually I need to run out and buy a thermostat proportional one at that due to the nature of RHPs clicking on max and off is not a good idea. While you are at it a better hide, that wood log hide is not the best for BPs, oh and you should have two just like the care sheets say. You don't sound like a jerk you sound like you don't have a clue of what you are talking about.

Terrestrial enclosures are easier to heat with UTH systems, RHPs are great but best suited to arboreal.

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http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/...psb5223845.jpg
Update..... Thank you for the advice, I will run right out and get some good thermostats because I thought that is what I got when I bought these but I guess not??? I will have to look into that! Listen, I specifically said that " I was not the Authority!" but i will offer my advice to this person that asked for opinions. I do refuse to get into a giant debate on this poor lady's thread. For the record.... I did mention that " these are pics from during THE BUILD and testing stage". At no point in any of my pics do you see an animal. The objects in the cage were things that i do not use in my Final setups. They were strictly in there to collect the heat and see what the absorption property of each of those items were! Things are not always what they appear to be,remember that before you go off on someone next time. Please feel free to PM me if you would like to continue this debate because I feel that we are both knowledgeable people and I value the opinions of others and appreciate a good debate, but I will not hijack another persons thread to do it! My deepest apologies Dark Lady, and if in the future you would like my advice on anything send me a message. Please post pics when your build is complete!!!!