A Challenge - Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is

I've made no bones about the fact that I was not a fan of Andrew Wyatt and his approach to USARK. But with him stepping down and with some people I actually trust at the helm, I'm going to reevaluate where I stand and reinstate my support.

In any war it is important to properly recognize a victory and at times a defeat, for without a realistic view of events and their meaning, people can be easily lulled into false senses of failure - or success.

The 112th congressional session ran from January 3, 2011 to January 3, 2013. As of the end of the session, only 219 of the over 4300 bills that were introduced were passed.

For the rest, a small few were voted to defeat but the majority just expired.

So when we take into account that less than 5% of bills pass, and when we also take into account that HR511 was not killed, or defeated, but expired with the end of the session, do we really want to call the expiration of HR511 a victory?

Before you answer, remember that a bill that is defeated is very different than one that expires with the end of the session. Expired bills are more often than not reintroduced in one form or another.

Moral of the story - USARK is an extremely underfunded organization that has not had the political clout to do more than "claim" a handful of victories - many of the big ones directly attributed to bills expiring with the end of a congressional session.

Until people stop posting USARK banners in their sigs and begin contributing to USARK in a meaningful way, we won't see a string of REAL defeated legislation in a long time.

This week was an eye opener for me. Despite all of the talk of support in the reptile community, I learned that over the last four+ years, USARK took the majority of their donations in from big business - a third from one donor. Actual donations from private individuals has been absolutely pathetic.

If the goal is for USARK to be a real and vital political force, one that can operate toe to toe with HSUS, they need less big talk from their constituents and more money from people like you and I. Only that way can this community claim real wins and focus on local issues as well as Federal.

If this rubs some people the wrong way, so be it. But I think celebrating one of thousands of bills that just expired (many with no real organized opposition) is just not right. In my eyes , it illustrates how low our expectations have been set.

Here's a challenge. Anyone who wants to take a shot at me for my views on this - go right ahead - I'm cool with it and I'm a big boy who can more than handle it.

What I would ask is that you first donate $10 to USARK. That donation will serve this community alot better than big talk and no action.

I'm going to donate $10 a month this year to USARK. Anytime someone questions my resolve our my commitment to this fight be prepared to prove that your resolve is at least up to par with mine.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ps50ca6c49.png

If they gave each member a complete break down of where the money is going, I would become a member today.
I was going to get my girlfriend and myself a membership for Xmas but couldn't really find any detailed information on where my money would go. I also signed up for the news letter and I think I have received one email so far. Just the other day I wad talking to my girl and she said the dame thing. She was going to give me a membership for Xmas, couldn't find enough info on them.

I believe any non-profit that wants my money should be very open on where the money went.

Now we all know that the HSUS gets their money through lies and I can find more info on where there money goes. Even if it's from people exposing them and not directly from the HSUS.

If USARK wants to be more open and give the members a full break down on every cent spent, I think more people would help and understand what they need.
I saw the vague breakdown of 30% here and 30% there and the nice round number of $300,000. That doesn't cut it for me. I want to know how much they need for mortgage, did Wyatt also get a company car, how much is spent on advertising, to keep the office running, blah blah blah..,,

If their accountant can't provide this information or they don't want to give out this information, then I don't think anyone should hand over any money to them.

I could be way wrong in my thinking but I don't just trust people and trust they will do the right thing when money in involved.

If you could point me in the right direction to find the info I'm looking for, I would be happy to read it with an open mind. I just need to do more research before I can become a member.

If they are doing the right thing with your donation, then let me be the first to thank you for doing so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 3skulls

If they gave each member a complete break down of where the money is going, I would become a member today.
I was going to get my girlfriend and myself a membership for Xmas but couldn't really find any detailed information on where my money would go. I also signed up for the news letter and I think I have received one email so far. Just the other day I wad talking to my girl and she said the dame thing. She was going to give me a membership for Xmas, couldn't find enough info on them.

I believe any non-profit that wants my money should be very open on where the money went.

Now we all know that the HSUS gets their money through lies and I can find more info on where there money goes. Even if it's from people exposing them and not directly from the HSUS.

If USARK wants to be more open and give the members a full break down on every cent spent, I think more people would help and understand what they need.
I saw the vague breakdown of 30% here and 30% there and the nice round number of $300,000. That doesn't cut it for me. I want to know how much they need for mortgage, did Wyatt also get a company car, how much is spent on advertising, to keep the office running, blah blah blah..,,

If their accountant can't provide this information or they don't want to give out this information, then I don't think anyone should hand over any money to them.

I could be way wrong in my thinking but I don't just trust people and trust they will do the right thing when money in involved.

If you could point me in the right direction to find the info I'm looking for, I would be happy to read it with an open mind. I just need to do more research before I can become a member.

If they are doing the right thing with your donation, then let me be the first to thank you for doing so.

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The link to the expense report is here:

http://usark.org/library/

Go down to 9 - Documents.

I think the problem to date is that no one from USARK was open enough to break down what the operating costs were and what the financial plan, goals and requirements were. We had fluffers coming on the forums and drumming up donations. The point is that they were basically barely paying the rent.

We got smoke and mirrors - an image of this organization as larger and more supported than it really was. Again, about 1/3 of the money comes from ONE donor. The rest from trade shows and a sad little amount form paypal donations.

I've conversed via email with Dr. Booth and there is another person on the Board that I know. I don't know if they can become a viable organization - but I do know that they can't do it with the pathetic support this community has given them.

So I'm putting my hopes on Dr. Booth and the others to stop the posturing, be more open about what the plan is and use strategic partnerships effectively until USARK can actually stand on it's own and fight toe to toe with HSUS.

I heard one person say that the very fact that Pacelle acknowledged USARK was an indication of success. Well, when I step in dog crap while mowing the lawn, I have to stop and acknowledge it. Doesn't mean I fear it, doesn't mean I respect it and it doesn't mean it's going to stop me from mowing the lawn.

In the end, I have no idea as to whether or not they will be successful. But it's painfully obvious to me that with all of the increased legislation on the local, state and federal levels, we need an 800 pound gorilla in the fight, not a spider monkey.

Skulls, I may be doing the wrong thing, but I believe that Dr. Booth is an honest, humble guy who will try to do the right thing. I'm going to support him and see where things end up.

I've never shied away from pointing out where USARK was going wrong, and I withdrew my financial support three years ago. I won't hesitate to do it again if I see fit. But I will give the new Board the benefit of the doubt and put my money where my mouth is.

Thank you!

The only Internet i have is my phone and at times it's very hard to find the things I'm looking for.

I will look over this information.

You seem to be more on top of this than most people I have seen talk about this topic.
Maybe you could post some more links to the new board members?

Thanks again!

If USARK straightens out and can tell me more precisely where their money is being used, what their plans are, and who is being paid... I will definitely consider donating more money. I sent money, I handed money at most shows I attended, and I've introduced people to USARK as a "good group that's fighting for us".

But I got very disillusioned when the answers to "where is my money going" were vague things like "To fight legislation" instead of "To pay for office supplies, travel expenses, legal fees, and scientific studies to prove our facts..." for instance.

I can say "I'm fighting legislation" by making phone calls to senators and congressmen... but I don't present myself as needing $150,000 to do it. So I just want to know that the organization I'm paying money to has a plan to use that money to be effective instead of brushing me off.

I'll read over the link. I'm hoping the new organization in the group will be a lot more forthcoming and interactive with the public so we can all come together in the fight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

The 112th congressional session ran from January 3, 2011 to January 3, 2013. As of the end of the session, only 219 of the over 4300 bills that were introduced were passed.

For the rest, a small few were voted to defeat but the majority just expired.

So when we take into account that less than 5% of bills pass, and when we also take into account that HR511 was not killed, or defeated, but expired with the end of the session, do we really want to call the expiration of HR511 a victory?

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The reason so few bills are publicly voted down, or to use your presumed definition, "killed", is politicians have little desire to embarrass one another generally. The "killing" of a bill by vote would only serve to embarrass the person that introduced that bill and rarely occurs. You are correct that a very small percentage of bills pass, and you are also correct that that is a result of lack of interest or support. But make no mistake, this bill did have support. This was not some obscure bill brought up to ask for something that had no shot of ever seeing the light of day. HR511 was a coordinated effort of a congressman, governmental policy makers and animal rights/environmental extremist organizations to pass what they were unsuccessful getting through the regulatory process. This bill passed out of the Judiciary committee. Normally the next step would be to attach this to a larger bill or to bring it to the house for a vote. That did not occur. The Department of Natural Resources committee pulled this bill into their preview as a direct result of the work behind the scenes of USARK through the law firm/ lobbyist that serve us. The USFWS lobbied for it's passage. They sat as expert witnesses asking for it's passage. The HSUS and the Nature Conservancy fought for this to pass. The HSUS made large and public criticism of the Obama Administration, who normally follows everything that the HSUS asks of them, for not taking out the other large constrictors with the Constrictor Rule. Make no mistake. This bill was killed by sitting on it and letting it expire.

I and my family would like to personally thank you for your support of USARK. Without the support of individuals like you, USARK would not have the grass roots support that is more powerful than anything else when it is needed. The financial support that USARK gets from everyone whether great or small adds up and enables us to do what we have done so far.

And for those who do not yet support USARK. Is USARK perfect? Nope. Not one individual that has been or is currently involved with USARK is perfect either. If you are going to wait for this or any organization to be exactly perfect, and to precisely do exactly what you think should be done, at every turn, then you will never support anything. This even while your support is greatly needed. USARK represents the greatest obstacle to the animal rights extremists. You need to remember this; When we first started USARK we were just a bunch of Reptile guys who took the threats against us seriously, while many didn't think there was any threat. Now we have seen that those threats are very real, but that we can make some part of a difference to frustrate those who mean to end our freedoms to engage in our hobby.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The_Boaphile

The reason so few bills are publicly voted down, or to use your presumed definition, "killed", is politicians have little desire to embarrass one another generally. The "killing" of a bill by vote would only serve to embarrass the person that introduced that bill and rarely occurs. You are correct that a very small percentage of bills pass, and you are also correct that that is a result of lack of interest or support. But make no mistake, this bill did have support. This was not some obscure bill brought up to ask for something that had no shot of ever seeing the light of day. HR511 was a coordinated effort of a congressman, governmental policy makers and animal rights/environmental extremist organizations to pass what they were unsuccessful getting through the regulatory process. This bill passed out of the Judiciary committee. Normally the next step would be to attach this to a larger bill or to bring it to the house for a vote. That did not occur. The Department of Natural Resources committee pulled this bill into their preview as a direct result of the work behind the scenes of USARK through the law firm/ lobbyist that serve us. The USFWS lobbied for it's passage. They sat as expert witnesses asking for it's passage. The HSUS and the Nature Conservancy fought for this to pass. The HSUS made large and public criticism of the Obama Administration, who normally follows everything that the HSUS asks of them, for not taking out the other large constrictors with the Constrictor Rule. Make no mistake. This bill was killed by sitting on it and letting it expire.

I and my family would like to personally thank you for your support of USARK. Without the support of individuals like you, USARK would not have the grass roots support that is more powerful than anything else when it is needed. The financial support that USARK gets from everyone whether great or small adds up and enables us to do what we have done so far.

And for those who do not yet support USARK. Is USARK perfect? Nope. Not one individual that has been or is currently involved with USARK is perfect either. If you are going to wait for this or any organization to be exactly perfect, and to precisely do exactly what you think should be done, at every turn, then you will never support anything. This even while your support is greatly needed. USARK represents the greatest obstacle to the animal rights extremists. You need to remember this; When we first started USARK we were just a bunch of Reptile guys who took the threats against us seriously, while many didn't think there was any threat. Now we have seen that those threats are very real, but that we can make some part of a difference to frustrate those who mean to end our freedoms to engage in our hobby.

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Well, Jeff, that's where we will have to disagree. At one point I was active in the AGC and Local 3 to pass legislation in California for the heavy construction/contracting community.

It was a common practice to let a bill expire when we knew we were getting the end of the legislative term and had made little headway. We would then reintroduce it within the first few quarters of the new term - often slightly reworked to defuse criticism from groups who had a less then rabid opposition to it.....and to wait for opposing legislators to move on after an election.

It was tactic to let a bill expire instead of going to a vote when we were unsure of the outcome. Better to let it expire than to have it voted down. In that sense, I wouldn't count this as a victory, because this will come back at the community at some point in the near future.

I'll leave it at that. Dr. Booth appears to be an honest and earnest person and support from the individual hobbyists has been weak - it's never been enough to fund an organization that has to fight on so many fronts and take on a strong group of well funded enemies.

I don't think accusing people who are hesitant about sending money of wanting only a "perfect" organization to exist is very welcoming or transparent.

I also don't think that asking for information regarding where the money is used and will be used and what sort of thing the group is planning is asking too much when it's monetary support.

It would take USARK less time to write up a blurb about where the money goes than it takes to run around the internet accusing reptile hobbiest of not supporting you only because you're not "perfect". Financial records should be available within reason. Showing donors where their money has made a difference encourages more donations.

Skip, I completely agree. Meager support for USARK from the private sector is someting that I have witnessed first hand through volunteering at shows. My opinion is that there are some things that the new regime at USARK should, at least, take into consideration. 1) In order to be professional, you should look professional. It's hard for me to convince someone that they should donate money to help protect their right to keep that little Ball Python that they just bought, if I am standing there in cargo shorts, t-shirt, and sandles. I do like the USARK t-shirts, but, when working in an official capcity, such as volunteering at a show, I think something like a Polo shirt with the USARK logo embroidered on the front, with slacks/khakis, and nice shoes, would be more appropriate. Polish the image a little.
2) Word of mouth falls on deaf ears. I do realize that advertising costs alot of money, but relying on word of mouth through shows and online forums, only goes so far. Especially, considering that a large number of reptile keepers, who get their animals from pet stores, etc, are not active in forums. Word of mouth may have worked when NCARK was a grass roots organization, but when it changed to USARK, they went nation wide. And if you want to go nation wide, you have to go "Nation Wide". If you want to stay small, and grass roots, then that is what you can expect in donations.
3) Swag bags. They need to get more stuff to sell. T-shirts are ok, but how about maybe something like koozies, coffee mugs, bumper stickers, etc. When a person buys a membership, how about throwing in a T-shirt, bumber sticker, a pen and a refrigerator magnet. People like to get little things like that.
USARK is going to have to ugrade their model if they expect to be as truly effective as they want to be...

Challenge Accepted. Membership renewed and additional $10 donation made.

A few other ideas that I've had over the last couple of years are:
1) Change, or stop the auctions. They are always open to the public, but the problem is, the "general public" rarely, if ever, shows up. More times than not, it is just the vendors who show up, and end up buying from each other, and as Skiploder said, they are the ones who end up bearing the brunt of the donations.
My suggestion is, if they want to continue to do the auctions, then conduct them concurrent with the show. Collect the auction donations in the morning, and then auction the items off throughout the day, possibly by silent auction, or some type of raffle.
2) Capitalize on the 50/50. Instead of doing one 50/50 drawing, open to the vendors, why not conduct two or three drawings each day. Most people only spend 1-2 hours at the show, so why not try a 50/50 drawing at 12:00, 2:00, and 4:00. That way, as the crowd changes, people get the opportunity to participate.
3) Put the jar back out. When I first started volunteering, we had a donation jar on the table. If we couldn't convince people to buy a membership, we could usually get them to part with a $1 or $5, or even the change in their pocket. Every little bit helps, right? But somewhere along the way, the jar disappeared.
4) Another idea that I got from my local high school band is coupon booklets. You buy the booklet for about $10-$20, and in it are coupons or promo codes for discounts for goods or services from area businesses. Since most vendors and breeders have websites, maybe something like this could work. USARK could make some money, people could save a little money, and the contributors would get some extra business from people using their websites, or shopping at their tables because of the coupons...advertising.
5) Keep the website updated with the current statuses of legilation, etc. As a volunteer, it is frustrating when I can't answer questions about current legislation, because either I can't find it, or, I don't have time to dig through forums or government websites looking for it. It would help tremendously, if that information was readily available on the USARK website, or at least provided in some type of volunteers information packet for reference...

I have never seen anything about USARK at any of the local shows around here.

Skip, that is inspired.

I'm in.

To others who read. How much did you spend in the last 12 months on this hobby? What's it worth to you to protect it and or give it a voice to the public that doesn't understand it?

the majority of organizations are funded by big business, thats just how it is. the problem is not that usark is underfunded by its "constituents", the problem is that USARK never went after more big business which has a good piece of skin in the picture and have tons to lose if things go south for the herp industry. that there is the big problem, your point of money where the mouth is all fine and dandy but the REAL money is going after corporate sponsors. I appreciate your post but i cant disagree with it any more. youre missing the problem by a mile a long mile.

Big business does bring in good money, but it doesn't completely make up for the chunk of private donations other organizations receive. HSUS gets however many dollars a month ($15? $12?) from anyone who signs up from their ads with sad puppies. Because their advertising reaches so many people and they're convincing it gets them the comfortable funding they need (people are a lot more willing to donate when heartstrings are pulled for shelters/abused animals, which is the pretense HSUS has, many don't know it's just paying lawyers and lobbyists despite our attempts at showing people). Also, lots of private donations = big business paying attention because it's where customer interest went.

Maybe because we have no heart string pulling ads people are less inclined to donate. I don't know. I'm very disappointed to hear how poorly USARK is doing in private donations. I've been sending $10-$20 when I have a little extra on my paycheck. It. Is. Easy. Really, it's the only effective way I can see myself making a difference legally as a hobbiest. I write letters, spread the word on most of my social networking whenever I hear about legislation, and do my best to (comfortably) expose people to my reptiles so that maybe they won't be as alienated, but I can't go to DC to fight for my rights and I certainly can't hope that what I have done would make any difference if USARK weren't around.

I budget it as an upkeep fee for my hobby. Maybe someday when there is a show that's closer than 3 hours away I can volunteer. Maybe someday I can send more funds, or less if the organization changes in a way I don't like, but we desperately need a dog in the fight that isn't a bare bones operation. From what I can tell USARK has done more good than if it weren't around, so I'll keep sending them money. If it turns out they're doing things I don't like or believe in, I'll stop. Simple. I understand people being squeamish about handing over money, but USARK needs a bigger presence to make a bigger difference

Quote:

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Originally Posted by perfectpredators

the majority of organizations are funded by big business, thats just how it is. the problem is not that usark is underfunded by its "constituents", the problem is that USARK never went after more big business which has a good piece of skin in the picture and have tons to lose if things go south for the herp industry. that there is the big problem, your point of money where the mouth is all fine and dandy but the REAL money is going after corporate sponsors. I appreciate your post but i cant disagree with it any more. youre missing the problem by a mile a long mile.

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Wrong on almost all accounts. The one bone I will throw you is that USARK should be going hard after corporate dollars, but that is even flawed in the sense that the number of viable sponsors is small compared with other special interest groups. ZooMed, Exo-Terra, Zilla and maybe a few more - how much money do you think you can squeeze from them?

Last time I checked, none of those companies were making a ton of money off of varanids, giant constrictors and hots. The bread and butter of the big businesses in the herp world are your corn snakes, your ball pythons, leopard geckoes and bearded dragons. You put the governance and influence of USARK in the hands of corporations whose interests are the garden variety "safe" herps and you have a recipe for disaster. It is imperative that the individual members of this hobby put their money where their mouths are and donate.

The annual revenue for HSUS is somewhere north of $125M and perusing their tax forms quickly shows you that a giant chunk of that comes from their mail in campaigns - not big business.

Some of the most effective and powerful lobbying groups are funded by individual donations - think the big unions. Big unions go toe to toe with big business on both the federal and local levels and do just fine. How do I know - at one point I was heavily involved in both Operators Local No. 3 and the AGC - one a labor union and one a collection of heavy contractors. Local 3 has tremendous clout in California and does so primarily from the backs of their individual members.

California has a ballot measure that crops up every few years - sponsored by big business - that seeks to limit the amount of donations taken in by the labor unions. These propositions are funded by some of the biggest corporations in the country and they are soundly defeated year after year by the unions and the individual constituents. Overestimate the power of corporations and underestimate the power of the individual at your own risk.

SEIU is another national labor union that is one of the most influential lobbyists in Washington and get a huge amount of their war chest from their individual members.

The ugly truth is that private individual donations to USARK have been low. USARK takes in about $300K a year and HSUS takes in over $125M. If you think a handful of reptile specific corporation are going to bridge that gap, you are dead wrong. If you think that the mainstream reptile specific "big businesses" have a lot of skin to lose if retics, burms, large monitors and hots get specific legislation, you are wrong.

People, you can either hope someone else chips in to defend your specific rights or you can sack up and do it yourself. I would suggest the latter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrLang

Skip, that is inspired.

I'm in.

To others who read. How much did you spend in the last 12 months on this hobby? What's it worth to you to protect it and or give it a voice to the public that doesn't understand it?

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That's my boy!

If we get twenty people on this thread to donate (and prove that they have done so) I will up my monthly donation to $25 for the rest of the year.

PM me with your receipts.

You guys are right with the "small donations add up". Also, right that members of the herp community need to be aware that it's their fight.

But once again, will we see a more transparent organization or will we get the same rhetoric and vague answers as before? I see a lot of "Here's how to get more money" and no effort on the part of USARK to reassure the general donors that they will spend the money wisely.

What about a promise that they will be more forthcoming with information about where money goes? If I saw a promise that USARK will keep the public informed about where the funds are going, then I'd feel right about sending money in. Otherwise, I feel a little bit like a HSUS donor who really thinks the money will assist in my cause but no real idea what it's actually used for.

And the big businesses SHOULD be concerned because HSUS will not be stopping at the big constrictors, hots and varanids. They'll keep on moving down the line until all of it is gone.

I donated and became a member last year. I can't donate much being a college student but some money is better than no money.

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Originally Posted by Pennstater6

I donated and became a member last year. I can't donate much being a college student but some money is better than no money.

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This is why I love Craig's challenge to us. No matter where we are in life, who among us can honestly say we can't spare $10/month for something we believe in? That's one less bottle of wine, making a few sandwiches instead of eating out once, or dropping a few channels from your cable package. I mean, come on, we can all afford the phones/computers/Internet that it takes to log on and read this!

And to those still concerned about financial transparency from USARK, have you looked at the link Skip posted yet?

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/01/07/a7uragap.jpg

I haven't been able to get a bottle of wine, go out to eat, haven't had cable or Internet for years (company phone), haven't heated my house (only heat the snake rooms) in a few years but....

Anyway. I thought this is the best time to give them another chance and a new start. If they would have made it a bit easier to find their expense report, I might have joined sooner. Thanks for that link skiploader.

I'm starting out low for now because money is very tight this time of year. If I'm happy with their progress I'll up my membership when I can. It's better than nothing, right?

The link Skip posted didn't have any finance info that I saw, perhaps I overlooked the right link among all the "Look what congress is doing" links.

If they do have posted the info about the funds, I would greatly appreciate a link, since I did look for it on their site. I WANT for USARK to improve and succeed and I WANT to go back to supporting them with my money.

http://usark.org/wp-content/uploads/...-%20Actual.pdf

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Originally Posted by 3skulls

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/01/07/a7uragap.jpg

I haven't been able to get a bottle of wine, go out to eat, haven't had cable or Internet for years (company phone), haven't heated my house (only heat the snake rooms) in a few years but....

Anyway. I thought this is the best time to give them another chance and a new start. If they would have made it a bit easier to find their expense report, I might have joined sooner. Thanks for that link skiploader.

I'm starting out low for now because money is very tight this time of year. If I'm happy with their progress I'll up my membership when I can. It's better than nothing, right?

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2 verified.

18 more to go.

What does the t shirt look like? My check I'm gonna go on and sign up for the monthly donation gotta see what my checks look like from new job to figure out what I can donate tho getting first check next week haha.

I'll have enough to do a membership come Wednesday. I'll post my screen shot upon doing so.

Sent from my SAMSUNG Galaxy SIII using Tapatalk 2

The monthly donation is the membership right? Sorry don't wanna sound uber noob lol just wanna make sure when I do it I do it right :)

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Originally Posted by carlson

The monthly donation is the membership right? Sorry don't wanna sound uber noob lol just wanna make sure when I do it I do it right :)

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You can do a membership (one of which is a monthly), or just contribute monthly, or both. :)

I did the bronze sustaining membership.

http://usark.org/membership-signup/b...member-signup/

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/01/07/ysa5ahab.jpg

Didn't know about the $5 recurring. Paid membership, if more transparency is given then I'd gladly donate more.

Sent from my SAMSUNG Galaxy SIII using Tapatalk 2

K I'm gonna go bronze too once checks start coming again lol. I wanna see what the shirts look like

3 down - 17 to go.

Thank you for the link 3skulls.

$20 sent. I can't figure out how to copy the image thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Thank you for the link 3skulls.

$20 sent. I can't figure out how to copy the image thing.

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5 down. 15 to go.

Erica:

Got your e-mail.

14 left.

How long does it take for an account to confined?

Yeah, not really going to give money to USARK considering the path they are taking aligning with the bane of the Reptile hobby called PIJAC, and the rumblings that certain board members like Zoomed are ready to throw the Big Constrictor guys like me and the venomous keepers under the bus to save their big money makers. Not going too happen, not in this life time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Methos75

Yeah, not really going to give money to USARK considering the path they are taking aligning with the bane of the Reptile hobby called PIJAC, and the rumblings that certain board members like Zoomed are ready to throw the Big Constrictor guys like me and the venomous keepers under the bus to save their big money makers. Not going too happen, not in this life time.

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Thanks for your support Methane!

So, Meth, you also don't support the big names like Brian at BHB because he says he supports PIJAC? That's the problem, too many people withdraw their support, and now USARK is going to have to make concessions such as banning large constructors and venomous just to make sure the "money makers" can still make money.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

So, Meth, you also don't support the big names like Brian at BHB because he says he supports PIJAC? That's the problem, too many people withdraw their support, and now USARK is going to have to make concessions such as banning large constructors and venomous just to make sure the "money makers" can still make money.

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I think guys like Brian are setting themselves up for failure, PIJAC considers him, and guys like us that breed on a small level as the enemy and a liability, and that we are the route to invasive species taking root and they have made it clear they wish to wipe us from existence. I cannot fathom why USARK for one, or anyone like us would want to be in league with them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Methos75

I think guys like Brian are setting themselves up for failure, PIJAC considers him, and guys like us that breed on a small level as the enemy and a liability, and that we are the route to invasive species taking root and they have made it clear they wish to wipe us from existence. I cannot fathom why USARK for one, or anyone like us would want to be in league with them.

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Can you give us examples that show why you would feel this way?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 3skulls

Can you give us examples that show why you would feel this way?

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Lots of good info here:

http://www.reptileradio.net/reptiler...w-organization

After reading the first 5 pages of that thread, I don't see PIJAC mentioned once. I see a bunch of people speculating and repeating that Wyatt left, that there's a new organization he's starting and it might be good or it might be bad...

In other words, the thread is the same as people here who are asking "Gee I wonder what REALLY happened?"

I've never once seen PIJAC say that they were not in support of hobbyiests or private breeders. I've never once seen USARK say anything like that either.

I have seen certain people claim both, without proof or quotes or anything coherent. The fact that the few species were put on the Lacey listing despite all efforts of the herp community doesn't mean that anyone in the herp community "made it happen" or "threw them under the bus". It means we all failed to win a defeat, and the only reason it's only those few(instead of all reptiles), is because the committee members knew they'd face legitimate challenges legally if they banned everything at once.

I'm up to around page 10

This was posted by Dr. Booth

http://www.pijac.org/_documents/pija...l_gov_desk.pdf

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Originally Posted by 3skulls

I'm up to around page 10

This was posted by Dr. Booth

http://www.pijac.org/_documents/pija...l_gov_desk.pdf

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If that's fake, it's quite a good fake. Looks like PIJAC doesn't hate the little guys.

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To me, it looks like the major problem is USARK working with PIJAC because PIJAC worked with HSUS (the true evil)

You have to read through 9 post of the Real House Wives of the Herp Community and another 9 post of the middle age men acting like a bunch of high school kids on FaceBook to get to the 3-4 good post of real information.

I have been keeping herps for 25+ years and helped rehabbed a number of different furry types, never knew that all this drama existed.

A few things that I feel to be true.

1. HSUS is pure evil and has to be stopped.

2. Dr. Warren Booth seems to be on the side of the person with a pet snake all the way up to the person that breeds for a living. He is out there giving the best info he can as of right now.

3. Seems like USARK has to team up with PIJAC because the lack of funds they have. The HSUS takes in somewhere near 175 million vs. 300k for USARK.

4. I don't know where PIJAC stands with HSUS but I can't imagine they are very close. The HSUS doesn't want anyone to have the right to own any animal. That would put everyone on the board of the PIJAC out of business.

I hope my choice to support USARK plays out to be the right one. For all the people upset about them working with PIJAC, maybe if they had enough money to stand on their own, they wouldn't have to "team" up with them.

I don't see PIJAC really caring about all of us but I can see why USARK needs their pull. And as of now I truly believe USARK does care.

Thank you skiploader for getting me move involved.


Oh and one last thing, I just bought a used rack from Larry that runs that site. Never knew who he was or they were around. Small world I guess, maybe that's another reason we should all be united.

From that document, it doesn't look like PIJAC is eliminating small hobby breeders at all. Looks rather like they're fighting for the rights of hobby breeders.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 3skulls

To me, it looks like the major problem is USARK working with PIJAC because PIJAC worked with HSUS (the true evil)

You have to read through 9 post of the Real House Wives of the Herp Community and another 9 post of the middle age men acting like a bunch of high school kids on FaceBook to get to the 3-4 good post of real information.

I have been keeping herps for 25+ years and helped rehabbed a number of different furry types, never knew that all this drama existed.

A few things that I feel to be true.

1. HSUS is pure evil and has to be stopped.

2. Dr. Warren Booth seems to be on the side of the person with a pet snake all the way up to the person that breeds for a living. He is out there giving the best info he can as of right now.

3. Seems like USARK has to team up with PIJAC because the lack of funds they have. The HSUS takes in somewhere near 175 million vs. 300k for USARK.

4. I don't know where PIJAC stands with HSUS but I can't imagine they are very close. The HSUS doesn't want anyone to have the right to own any animal. That would put everyone on the board of the PIJAC out of business.

I hope my choice to support USARK plays out to be the right one. For all the people upset about them working with PIJAC, maybe if they had enough money to stand on their own, they wouldn't have to "team" up with them.

I don't see PIJAC really caring about all of us but I can see why USARK needs their pull. And as of now I truly believe USARK does care.

Thank you skiploader for getting me move involved.


Oh and one last thing, I just bought a used rack from Larry that runs that site. Never knew who he was or they were around. Small world I guess, maybe that's another reason we should all be united.

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Here's my opinion for what it is worth on the bolded subjects. PIJAC doesn't care about us hobbyist but it does care about the business we give to the pet industry, so I believe they will fight in our corner. This is not because they care if we keep snakes but they want us to keep spending money in the industry. I think PIJAC represents the pet business as a whole and recognizes HSUS's stance on pets and is willing to fight them so they don't get to the core of their business which is cats and dogs.

When/if my shirts come in I'll have to take a picture and make it my avatar.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Methos75

Lots of good info here:

http://www.reptileradio.net/reptiler...w-organization

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Interesting read.

I have a good memory, and something that Erika Chen-Walsh claimed in that thread struck me as odd - namely where she denied that Andrew Wyatt had ever proposed, alluded to, etc. etc pre-emptive legislation as was penned by USARK in NC.

Then I went back through all the USARK stuff I've bookmarked and found this:

http://www.jaxherp.com/usark-update11-8-09.html

The relevant testimony, directly from Mr. Wyatt's mouth (note the highlighted and enlarged text):

USARK Testimony on HR2811 before House Judiciary Committee, Subcommittee for Crime, Terrorism & Homeland Security

Mr. Chairman, members of the Subcommittee, I want to thank you for the opportunity to be before you and present testimony today on HR. 2811, a bill to amend title 18 of the U.S. Code, to include constrictor snakes of the species Python genera as an injurious animal.

My name is Andrew Wyatt and I am here representing the United States Association of Reptile Keepers (USARK), of which I serve as President.

By way of background, USARK represents the highly sophisticated commercial production of captive bred reptiles in the United States. We are a science and education based advocacy for the responsible private ownership of, and trade in reptiles. USARK endorses caging standards, sound husbandry, escape prevention protocols, and an integrated approach to vital conservation issues. Our goal is to facilitate cooperation between government agencies, the scientific community, and the private sector in order to produce policy proposals that will effectively address important husbandry and conservation issues. The health of these animals, public safety, and maintaining ecological integrity are our primary concerns.

Over the past 60 years, the practice of keeping reptiles has changed from an obscure hobby to an incredibly widespread and mainstream part of the American experience. Reptiles have become intensely popular and are now present in millions of American households (1 in every 25 US Households has 1 or more reptiles). They now permeate pop culture, movies and advertising. Who doesn’t know the Geico Gecko?

From early beginnings in the pet trade herpetoculture, the practice of breeding reptiles and amphibians, has grown into a sophisticated and independent $3 billion annual industry. Herpetoculturists produce high quality captive bred animals for collectors, research, zoos, museums, TV & film. For reference, these animals can be valued at over $100,000 for individual specimens. Millions of dollars flow into the national economy from the Reptile Industry. It is interlaced and interconnected with all levels of economies. Purchases of equipment, dry goods, bedding and cages channel money into U.S. manufacturing. Millions of dollars go to support American agriculture with purchases of food, including rodents, grain, bedding, vegetables and prepared diets. Millions of dollars more support airlines and parcel shippers. The Reptile Industry in the United States accounts for 82% of the worldwide export and trade in high quality captive bred reptiles. Thousands of American small businesses and their employees depend on the Reptile Industry.

Reptiles are an animal interest that have captivated an incredibly diverse cross section of the American demographics; from scientists to school children, Wall Street bankers to construction workers, conservationists, attorneys, teachers, rock stars, actors and even politicians. Your friends and neighbors keep reptiles. Some member of your family keeps, or has kept, reptiles. Collectively we refer to this demographic as the Reptile Nation, comprising more than 5 million Americans. All are intensely interested in protecting their legal rights to possess and work with reptiles. Reptile keepers are single-issue voters when that issue is perceived as unnecessary, unwarranted, or unfair regulation of their legal right to own and care for their animals. An example of this passion and organization was witnessed earlier this year when Members of the House Committee on Natural Resources received nearly 50,000 letters from the Reptile Nation in advance of a legislative hearing on a well-intentioned but misguided and fatally flawed legislative proposal.

USARK is concerned about feral Burmese Pythons in the Everglades and the impact they could potentially have on the eco-system of South Florida. We recognize the problem and have committed to be part of the solution. Our members have been intrinsic in the creation of a Python Removal Program in coordination with Florida Fish & Wildlife Conservation Commission (FWC) and we were the first to be licensed to remove pythons from state lands in South Florida. USARK has actively appealed to the U.S. Department of the Interior to open up Everglades National Park to a removal program modeled on the Florida program. We do not believe captured pythons should be re-released back into the Park for any reason. USARK has offered $10,000 to United States Fish & Wildlife Service to establish the basis of a program to get pythons out of Florida and into qualified hands that can securely and humanely house them for the rest of their natural lives. USARK has great expertise in regards to pythons; how to find them, where to find them, reproductive behaviors, predation, safe secure maintenance in captivity… etc. Unfortunately, in our view, the federal government has failed to capitalize on this vast pool of knowledge and experience to most effectively address the issue of feral Burmese Pythons in the Everglades National Park and South Florida.

Beyond the invasiveness of the Burmese Python, it is our fear that the issue is becoming overly politicized and media-driven, thus creating a situation where we've selectively interpreted the available science. This is an issue area, especially in this Committee, that isn't especially well-known, and thus it lends itself to misinformation and over-generalizations. The physical danger posed by pythons toward humans has simply been grossly overstated. Even in their native range of South East Asia, where human population densities far exceed that of South Florida, deaths attributed to pythons are extremely rare. As a general matter, pythons have never posed a real threat to humans. That's not to say however, they make the best family pet in every case, or that they cannot pose a threat when best handling practices are not followed or existing laws designed to ensure responsible ownership are ignored. Only that they are not the dangerous killers portrayed by activists in the media.

USARK estimates that today there are over 4 million Boas and Pythons in captivity in the United States. This represents about $1.6 billion in asset value and $1.8 billion in annual revenues. Of these in captivity today, 100,000 are Burmese Pythons or African Pythons. {None of these animals will be going anywhere, because there are no provisions in HR 2811 for the disposition of these animals.} USARK will continue to work on shifting the ongoing debate over these species toward policy resolutions based upon complete and solid science. The utmost of care should be taken in any attempt to mange the captive and feral populations. If mistakes are made, problems will only be compounded. Simply legislating animals onto the Injurious Wildlife List of the Lacey Act will not accomplish HR 2811’s stated intent. Rather, it will destroy the most valuable resource capable of effectively managing the millions of animals already here. If you reduce the value of these animals to zero and destroy the livelihoods of those most qualified to deal with the secure disposition of all of these animals, where will that leave us?

USARK has been developing and employing best handling practices and accreditation for many years and welcomes a more in-depth discussion in this regard with congressional and administration officials. It is our belief that best management practices and professional standards specific to certain reptiles is what is needed, not draconian measures that will only succeed in destroying a viable industry.

Not only is the reptile industry a viable component of the American economy, but we have made an unparalleled contribution to conservation; captive breeding as a conservation safety net. Captivity is now considered an important tool of vertebrate conservation. What is today being attempted around the world for amphibians through the International Amphibian Ark, and as proposed by the Great Cats and Rare Canids Act (H.R. 411 and S. 529), and many captivity programs for other rare vertebrates ranging from Sumatran rhinos to Guam kingfishers, has already been accomplished for reptiles. Today the vast majority of boas and pythons held in captivity are captive-bred animals. These are animals that have not been removed from the wild. Reptiles are today more securely established in captivity than any other vertebrate group. This is truly one of the greatest conservation accomplishments of the past 20 years.

Almost all species and subspecies of boas and pythons have been bred in the United States. There are now viable self-sustaining captive populations of several hundred species of reptiles being maintained in the United States. Most pythons and many boa species now exist in captivity as viable ancillary populations. This has been accomplished through a decentralized, non-governmental, economically driven model of conservation. It is American private enterprise that has achieved this very impressive modern goal, not a penny of American taxpayer dollars has been spent in this endeavor.

As the Subcommittee is aware, there is a scientific process underway at the US Fish & Wildlife Service which carefully evaluates the science prior to making an “injurious species” determination. I would note that one of the commitments of the current Administration was not to politicize the scientific process used to make some of these policy decisions. I ask that this Committee do the same. USARK is fully aware of the criticism that the Fish and Wildlife Service injurious species process takes too long and thus members of Congress are now being pushed into overriding this scientific process for the sake of political expediency. This is wrong. This was wrong when it was attempted before for other species, and it is wrong today. Ironically though, many of the groups backing HR 2811 have had decided to suspend their policy in order to fit their agendas on this issue. It is important to note that, historically, these same groups feverously have opposed other legislative and regulatory efforts that favored political policy over scientific fact.

I ask that the Subcommittee note and consider state-level legislation that is now in place in all but eight U.S. States. For example, last year legislation was passed in NC with the support of the NC Partners in Amphibian & Reptile Conservation to regulate the ownership and use of large constricting snakes. Similar legislation exists in the states of Texas and Florida, for reference. These measures insure that safe, secure, professional best management practices are observed to legally work with these animals. USARK is also currently working in VA and SC to introduce similar legislation in 2010. These best management practices embodied in existing state legislation could easily be adapted to a national USARK accreditation process insuring uniformity and professionalism across the country.

In conclusion, many of these species we are discussing today have been captive bred in this country for over thirty years and have demonstrated no evidence of invasiveness. It is our hope that this Subcommittee will choose to take a more measured approach than is set forth in HR 2811. USARK is committed to safe reptile ownership and welcomes the opportunity to work with Congress to that end.

Again thank you for the opportunity to appear before the Subcommittee. I am happy to answer any questions you may have.