BP moving from Hot to Cool side A LOT! What does this mean??

My 4 month old BP is moving from one hide to another a lot.

I have a 75watt heat lamp and a UTH on the hot side in a 10gallon tank....should I have both or just one of the heat sources??

This is a temporary set-up as i am awaiting receipt of 2 V221 Vision Tanks.

Thanks in advance for your input!

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Originally Posted by Ldag32

My 4 month old BP is moving from one hide to another a lot.

I have a 75watt heat lamp and a UTH on the hot side in a 10gallon tank....should I have both or just one of the heat sources??

This is a temporary set-up as i am awaiting receipt of 2 V221 Vision Tanks.

Thanks in advance for your input!

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Hit the thanks on accident, stupid phone :P


What are your cold/ambient and hot side temps? What are you using to measure them?

Using Zilla thermometer with probe directly under lamp on floor of tank..it's reading 94degrees...

I am for any suggestions you have.

94 is a little too hot, try to get it down to 90.

What is the temperature in the room that the cage is in?

Does the UTH have a thermostat regulating it?

What's the cold side?

94 is a bit too high IMO. I prefer it more around 90-92. Those Zilla thermometers aren't very good. Actually most you buy specifically for reptiles suck. Try getting an Accurite indoor/outdoor thermometer with probe from Walmart. They are only about $13 and work well.

What are you using to regulate your UTH?

What's the humidity in the enclosure?

My first thought is your hot side is too hot for him, and your cold side is probably too cold which is why he is moving back and forth so much. The cold side should be 80-82 or so...

If your probe is directly on the bottom surface of the tank with a UTH and lamp running, I'd say it's not picking up temps accurately...75 watt heat lamp with a UTH in the same spot is too hot.

68-70 degrees in the room!

no thermostat yet... Awaiting Vision tanks and Herpstat 4....

thinking I should keep heat lamp on opposite side of UTH.

humidity also low.... I keep spraying the tank and refilling water bowl.

going to Walmart to buy accurite thermometer.... Do you use two thermometers? One for hot side and one for cold side?

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Originally Posted by Ldag32

going to Walmart to buy accurite thermometer.... Do you use two thermometers? One for hot side and one for cold side?

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No. Indoor/outdoor style with the head unit on the cool side and the wire outdoor probe on the heat mat

i use a 75w in my 20l tank. its 12 inches tall and have it about 2 inches off the top of the tank. it keeps my hot side around 86-88. id say that tank is way to hot. you are prob close to 96* if not more. try dropping the bulb down to a 50w

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Originally Posted by nick654377

i use a 75w in my 20l tank. its 12 inches tall and have it about 2 inches off the top of the tank. it keeps my hot side around 86-88. id say that tank is way to hot. you are prob close to 96* if not more. try dropping the bulb down to a 50w

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Thanks!! Thats been the consensus…I thought that initially and also bought a 50w. I will switch them out. Still don't think I am getting accurate readings from my thermometer. Going to get that thermometer 1st.

Also, given this set up, if using heat lamp, should I keep the UTH on the same side?? Will I get a better gradient if I keep them on separate sides??

My room is 68-70 Degrees.

Appreciate all the help!

LD

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ldag32

My 4 month old BP is moving from one hide to another a lot.

I have a 75watt heat lamp and a UTH on the hot side in a 10gallon tank....should I have both or just one of the heat sources??

This is a temporary set-up as i am awaiting receipt of 2 V221 Vision Tanks.

Thanks in advance for your input!

---

For your 'temporary setup' I think the easiest thing you can do is disable the heat lamp and make sure you have a neonate sized suitable hide over the Uth (hot side) a neonate shouldn't be roaming the 10 gallon but once a night or if he/she just pood.

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Originally Posted by Vilenica

For your 'temporary setup' I think the easiest thing you can do is disable the heat lamp and make sure you have a neonate sized suitable hide over the Uth (hot side) a neonate shouldn't be roaming the 10 gallon but once a night or if he/she just pood.

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Thank you!

Would you consider 103 grams a neonate??

I have my spider (86 grams) in a very small set-up with a UTH, a small RBI hide and a water dish….she ate for the 1st time yesterday and her eyes turned clear today as she is going into shed.

Keeping a close eye on both as I want to make sure they don't get stressed.

Thanks again for all of your help.

LD

If you don't have a thermostat for your UTH then I would unplug it and just use the heat lamp. Unregulated UTH's are dangerous, and your 75 watt heat lamp should be enough on its own. And in a room that cold a UTH on its own cannot get the air temperature in the cage high enough.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nick654377

i use a 75w in my 20l tank. its 12 inches tall and have it about 2 inches off the top of the tank. it keeps my hot side around 86-88. id say that tank is way to hot. you are prob close to 96* if not more. try dropping the bulb down to a 50w

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86-88? The hot side of the cage should be between 88-92 degrees.

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

If you don't have a thermostat for your UTH then I would unplug it and just use the heat lamp. Unregulated UTH's are dangerous, and your 75 watt heat lamp should be enough on its own. And in a room that cold a UTH on its own cannot get the air temperature in the cage high enough.

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Even those zoomed ones?? It's not flexwatt.... Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Ldag32

Even those zoomed ones?? It's not flexwatt.... Thoughts?

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can run 130 degrees +;)
Think of it as rubber coated flex:gj:

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Originally Posted by Ldag32

Even those zoomed ones?? It's not flexwatt.... Thoughts?

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Those can get hot enough to give a BP brain damage in a matter of hours and hot enough to kill a BP in only a short time longer.

All UTH's cannot change the temperature of the air inside the cage. They only heat the floor of the cage. This is why you have to have a probed thermometer, otherwise you cannot tell how hot the UTH is actually making the floor of the cage.

Unregulated UTH's are also a pretty big fire risk.

Not all UTH are made the same there are hi density and low density units zoo meds are in between I personally an not a huge fan of them but that is me. UTH should not be unregulated. that said unplugging it is also perhaps not a good idea if it is required to hold the temps in a reasonable range and unplugging it drops them below an acceptable range then no do not remove the heat. If it stays ok then yes unplug it.

A while back a young girl from my area had a BP with an ultratherm unregulated (limited heat low density heater) and hot spot temps that were around the 83º range in a cool room. The advise from this forum was to unplug it. The temps dropped to 66º across the board and the snake developed serious RI and upon all the best help (vet and the agency I am on the board of) did not recover. SNAKES NEED HEAT removing heat and allowing temps to drop below 80º will end badly.

The zoo med if the instructions are followed carefully will not cause a fire why would they? This is the (stupid) way they are designed to be used. Unregulated is exactly that out of control. You have a great T-stat on the way make sure you temps are ok between now and then and everything will be fine.

Is the snake eating? How long have you had the enclosure this way 4 months? If the answers are yes and the surface temps are 94 and do not get much hotter then there is no great issue you have a minor problem and the solution is in transit. Removing heat sources and dropping temps from slightly high to potentially dangerously low is not good advise or ideas. The easy solution may be to place a tile on the area where the pad is (ceramic or stone) to drop the temp and insure the snake cannot contact the dead bottom where the temps could be higher.

Out of curiosity I plugged in an old zoo med pad and am going to check the temp in a bit...

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

Those can get hot enough to give a BP brain damage in a matter of hours and hot enough to kill a BP in only a short time longer.

All UTH's cannot change the temperature of the air inside the cage. They only heat the floor of the cage. This is why you have to have a probed thermometer, otherwise you cannot tell how hot the UTH is actually making the floor of the cage.

Unregulated UTH's are also a pretty big fire risk.

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What UTH are you using? That are running so hot. :O

In all honesty I'd ditch them and get something that does not run so hot like an ultratherm, intelliheat or Kane, so even in a complete failure of everything the temp will never be able to get beyond 110º max too hot to be sure but not the dire results you clearly have experience with. There is no reason to have a UTH that is a high wattage unit not a single one of mine in current use has ever hit more than 110ºF when I run a wide open test on it that is also direct surface temps taken fro the pad.

It only takes 108 degrees to to give a BP brain damage. The zoomed UTH's can get the floor of a glass tank that hot in a few hours.

When a UTH is unregulated and does't have any airflow over it they will keep on getting hotter and hotter. I've measured the floor of a 10 gallon glass tank with an appropriately sized zoomed UTH at 147 degrees F. It took less than a week to get that hot.

I personally don't use them but 99% of new owners who get a UTH do and chances are they aren't using a thermostat. That is why I did my "worst case" test to see what happens.

I use AP cages with flexwatt. I can't use anything like ultratherms because they don't get hot enough to heat through the 1/2" PVC floor. But for glass tanks/single tubs I would use and recommend something like an untratherm.

That would be internal body temp for HHS correct? It is unlikely to occur if the ambient if correct and surface is in the mid 90s, failure to digest is first. It is not like a bit of contact to 109º is going to cause brain damage, if it were RHPs would be very dangerous. The body temp of a mouse is what 99º normal adding adrenaline it could reach 106º during trauma that is not an issue.

If it is set up according to the instructions air flow MUST be accounted for. My UTH is 110º sitting on the couch. I am not advocating unregulated but unregulated a couple of degrees high is better than no heat and far too cool. Simply turning off the heat is not a good answer there are far too many factors and if it is set up as per the instructions there is no fire hazard past any typical electrical heater. I have seen first hand the result of no heat for two weeks brings.

I don't think just suggesting turning off part of a heat system with out having any idea of what the impact might be is good advise. You know this Aaron, my suggestion is try it and see what happens but after 4 months with no more issues that lots of thermoregulating I would suggest either raising the bulb and/or placing something like a tile over the UTH slightly dropping the temp rather than (if the UTH is as warm as has been suggested) turning off much of the heat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Not all UTH are made the same there are hi density and low density units zoo meds are in between I personally an not a huge fan of them but that is me. UTH should not be unregulated. that said unplugging it is also perhaps not a good idea if it is required to hold the temps in a reasonable range and unplugging it drops them below an acceptable range then no do not remove the heat. If it stays ok then yes unplug it.

A while back a young girl from my area had a BP with an ultratherm unregulated (limited heat low density heater) and hot spot temps that were around the 83º range in a cool room. The advise from this forum was to unplug it. The temps dropped to 66º across the board and the snake developed serious RI and upon all the best help (vet and the agency I am on the board of) did not recover. SNAKES NEED HEAT removing heat and allowing temps to drop below 80º will end badly.

The zoo med if the instructions are followed carefully will not cause a fire why would they? This is the (stupid) way they are designed to be used. Unregulated is exactly that out of control. You have a great T-stat on the way make sure you temps are ok between now and then and everything will be fine.

Is the snake eating? How long have you had the enclosure this way 4 months? If the answers are yes and the surface temps are 94 and do not get much hotter then there is no great issue you have a minor problem and the solution is in transit. Removing heat sources and dropping temps from slightly high to potentially dangerously low is not good advise or ideas. The easy solution may be to place a tile on the area where the pad is (ceramic or stone) to drop the temp and insure the snake cannot contact the dead bottom where the temps could be higher.

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Thank you!!!

I have only had the normal female for about a month….she is 103 grams and as eaten readily every 7 days since… (3 feedings)

I just picked up the Spider female last week (86 grams) and she ate for the 1st time on Sat.

Bigger than anything else is the quality of the thermometer! I think the one i have is terrible. I have 2 thermometers: the zoo-med with the probe and the Flukers combo thermometer/hygrometer. The zoo-med probe is located on the UTH and reading 85.6 degrees. The Flukers is in the middle of the tank on the bottom and is reading 83.1 degrees.

Should I invest in a temp gun so I can be certain???

A temp gun is a better investment than a thermometer, but I have to remember to use a few times a day to make sure your temps are good...

Thermometers are a huge bug-a-boo. If there were a good one to recommend I would tell you there are only cheap and good. Good sadly are hugely expensive. You actually have a very good on on the way the herpstat is about the best for the money. the fact it is a thermostat is a bonus. The issue is most digital ones are 2º+/- of accurate some are 4ºF +/- the ones that are spec'd at closer (1º+/- or better) and are certified (traceable) are often more (much) that the cost of a herpstat (0.9ºF +/-) I usually suggest buying the cheap ones and a number and averaging them it is scary how different they can be. I suggest 5 you can sort of get away with three but 10+ make the average work better. I usually get these

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Mini-Aquarium...ht_2371wt_1165

IR guns are great tools however they too are about the same accuracy. They are super useful but I would rely on an accurate thermometer and use the gun and a quick check tool. One does not really replace the other.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Thermometers are a huge bug-a-boo. If there were a good one to recommend I would tell you there are only cheap and good. Good sadly are hugely expensive. You actually have a very good on on the way the herpstat is about the best for the money. the fact it is a thermostat is a bonus. The issue is most digital ones are 2º+/- of accurate some are 4ºF +/- the ones that are spec'd at closer (1º+/- or better) and are certified (traceable) are often more (much) that the cost of a herpstat (0.9ºF +/-) I usually suggest buying the cheap ones and a number and averaging them it is scary how different they can be. I suggest 5 you can sort of get away with three but 10+ make the average work better. I usually get these

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Mini-Aquarium...ht_2371wt_1165

IR guns are great tools however they too are about the same accuracy. They are super useful but I would rely on an accurate thermometer and use the gun and a quick check tool. One does not really replace the other.

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A herpstat is an excellent tstat, top of the line. It isn't going to really help him know all his temps tho. Temp guns are generally much more accurate than the thermometers that are sold at reptile stores.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Thermometers are a huge bug-a-boo. If there were a good one to recommend I would tell you there are only cheap and good. Good sadly are hugely expensive. You actually have a very good on on the way the herpstat is about the best for the money. the fact it is a thermostat is a bonus. The issue is most digital ones are 2º+/- of accurate some are 4ºF +/- the ones that are spec'd at closer (1º+/- or better) and are certified (traceable) are often more (much) that the cost of a herpstat (0.9ºF +/-) I usually suggest buying the cheap ones and a number and averaging them it is scary how different they can be. I suggest 5 you can sort of get away with three but 10+ make the average work better. I usually get these

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Mini-Aquarium...ht_2371wt_1165

IR guns are great tools however they too are about the same accuracy. They are super useful but I would rely on an accurate thermometer and use the gun and a quick check tool. One does not really replace the other.

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The one you provide an ebay link for looks just like the Zoo-med I have.

Thanks for all of your feedback!! :)

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...mage_thumb.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

It only takes 108 degrees to to give a BP brain damage. The zoomed UTH's can get the floor of a glass tank that hot in a few hours.

When a UTH is unregulated and does't have any airflow over it they will keep on getting hotter and hotter. I've measured the floor of a 10 gallon glass tank with an appropriately sized zoomed UTH at 147 degrees F. It took less than a week to get that hot.

I personally don't use them but 99% of new owners who get a UTH do and chances are they aren't using a thermostat. That is why I did my "worst case" test to see what happens.

I use AP cages with flexwatt. I can't use anything like ultratherms because they don't get hot enough to heat through the 1/2" PVC floor. But for glass tanks/single tubs I would use and recommend something like an untratherm.

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With your AP Cages do you use flexwatt and Radiant Heat Panels??? If so, does your thermostat control both??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ldag32

The one you provide an ebay link for looks just like the Zoo-med I have.

Thanks for all of your feedback!! :)

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...mage_thumb.jpg

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The zoo med is usually worse than the Exo terra tmeter. Mine were always very inaccurate

I have never really found a reasonably priced thermometer of any sort that was good, IR guns included, they are the same specs as the unit I posted. Most are +/-2ºF and some are worse. They are a useful tool as long as you keep the limitations in mind they do not really like shiny objects (smooth plastics for example) and do best pointed at something that reflects about as much light as a brown paper bag. They can give a good idea of gradients and spot temps but they cannot provide a precise measurement. They just do not work that way.

Sadly I calibrate instruments that require less than 0.5ºF in error and I have some very good thermometers and thermal couplers. The general thermometers used in the hobby are poor at best. This is why I suggest a number to be able to separate out the worst ones. I typically see a range of 2-3ºF from each other in a sampling group of 20 units the unit I linked earlier usually in 2ºF of correct (on the specs) the average is close to correct often being only 0.7ºF off.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

I have never really found a reasonably priced thermometer of any sort that was good, IR guns included, they are the same specs as the unit I posted. Most are +/-2ºF and some are worse. They are a useful tool as long as you keep the limitations in mind they do not really like shiny objects (smooth plastics for example) and do best pointed at something that reflects about as much light as a brown paper bag. They can give a good idea of gradients and spot temps but they cannot provide a precise measurement. They just do not work that way.

Sadly I calibrate instruments that require less than 0.5ºF in error and I have some very good thermometers and thermal couplers. The general thermometers used in the hobby are poor at best. This is why I suggest a number to be able to separate out the worst ones. I typically see a range of 2-3ºF from each other in a sampling group of 20 units the unit I linked earlier usually in 2ºF of correct (on the specs) the average is close to correct often being only 0.7ºF off.

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Isn't there a quick test you can do at home to check the variance of your thermometers? Something to the extent of getting a bowl of ice and then filling it with water, waiting a few minutes then checking temps of the water? This is how the local food health department says to check thermometers for food storage, etc....

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Originally Posted by Zombie

This is how the local food health department says to check thermometers for food storage, etc....

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All Health Department do;)

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

All Health Department do;)

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Just wasn't sure cause Kite is in Canada :)

Yes you can and be fairly confident of being in a 3º range. That is the kicker, water freezes at 0ºC 32ºF Ice is at or below this temp. Water with ice is likely close to freezing but not exactly. Better would be to place water into the freezer and when a skin of ice forms stir it and likely it will be with in one degree. The other problem with printed resistant sensors is that the variation at freezing will it be the same at 80ºF ? Maybe and maybe not.

Getting to +/-4ºF is easy an cheap simple tests can easily manage. +/-2ºF is a bit harder but no great stretch (why many thermometers are spec'd to this point) +/- 1ºF is much more difficult and costly and breaking the sub 1º error is very costly that is why the better proportional T-Stats (herpstat ecozone, herpkeeper and helix) are all in the just under 1º area (0.7-0.9º +/- I believe) they manage this by not trying to probe the sensor to electronics the probe contains the electronics reducing the error incurred by having a wire. (I have not seen written specs on the VE series just word of mouth that it is under 1º hopefully someday they will get around to a complete manual) To break the 0.5 requires different methods usually thermal couplers or RTD systems often made of platinum. These have the highest accuracy and repeatability and the greatest cost. The three I use are worth more than 2500$ total. The cheap ones are often in the 350$+ range.