Very Disappointed....Is this normal?

Today I went to visit Family Reptiles in Lakeland, FL. I have enjoyed talking to them at the past couple of Repticons and I was very impressed with how nice and clean the facility was and how healthy all the animals appeared.

I was impressed until I asked if they had any frozen rat pups. One of the guys working, I didn't catch his name, told me they didn't have any frozen but I could get live. He then said he had just put some in the freezer but they weren't ready yet. I was under the impression that they had gassed the rats and they just weren't frozen yet. That was soooo not the case. He opened the freezer and opened a little storage bin and there were probably about 50 rats (from pinks up to almost weaned rats) that were still alive and half frozen.

They just threw the rats in the freezer to freeze to death.

It made me sick. How can you have so little respect for the lives of these animals? How can they think it is okay to just let these poor things have a slow death...

Is this common for people who supply frozen rodents? Is it an accepted practice to put live rodents in the freezer?

This just makes me even more thankful that I am able to produce almost all of the rodents I need to feed my collection.

I don't know, maybe I am overly sensitive.....but I can't support a business that does that once I know what goes on....I was literally crying in the store. It made me feel sick :(

If you were caught doing that in the UK you'd be looking at a stretch in jail!!

i did that when i was 15 when i was trying to get my ball on f/t. never would do it again. that was 10 years ago when i didnt know better.

There is no reason and no excuse for such cruelty. Have you posted a thread on BOI to let people know about this seller?

Not the norm at all CO2 is the right and only way it should be done. That's animal cruelty

Freezing any animal is inhumane...this is absolutely animal cruelty and most likely a crime in FL.

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Originally Posted by GoFride

There is no reason and no excuse for such cruelty. Have you posted a thread on BOI to let people know about this seller?

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No I haven't posted on the BOI. The bad thing is, apparently this guy is a police officer....even if I were to report them to animal control, I don't know what would actually be done. I don't know what all I can actually do since I don't have any evidence other than what I saw and what my boyfriend saw.

To be honest, I'm less than crazy about rats so I don't really have much in the way of sympathy but it's obvious that that is absolutely wrong.
I actually think that legally, you're only supposed to be allowed to cull feeders with Co2 chambers or cervical dislocation? Any other methods are considered animal cruelty. Not certain though, would need to find a source that can verify it.

I found out the pet store close to me does this as well.

I told them what to do, but I don't think they'll change.

Definitely wrong and horrible.. I just went to their site and saw their feeders section.. Just wrong :( Did they ask you why you were crying?

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Originally Posted by Flikky

Definitely wrong and horrible.. I just went to their site and saw their feeders section.. Just wrong :(

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I was going to buy some frozen because I feel like their prices are really good compared to anything I can get. I am just completely shocked. How hard is it to buy some dry ice or build a CO2 chamber?


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I believe freezing is considered humane by the Vet association for PINKIES... but not for larger ones. I don't know what size that cuts off at, but pinkies have such a low O2 need that trying to gas them doesn't work.

Freezing rodents to death in a typical freezer is inhumane and possibly illegal(dependent on local cruelty laws). Making a CO2 chamber is not all that difficult, time-consuming or expensive. No excuse.

Yes. Wolfy is correct. It is only humane when the animal is in the pinky stage (look at the IACUC protocols)
They have a high resistance to low oxygen and hypoxia. Due to this resistance, they can survive a gas chamber. It's more inhumane to put pinks through a gas chamber and have them live through it than freezing. And according to IACUC, cervical dislocation should not be used on pinks due to their fragile undeveloped tails. You can pull a tail off before their neck breaks. (Among the reptile community, it's somewhat common practice to flick their heads in order to humanely euthanize them)

Anything above the pinky stage (or 2 weeks of age) should be humanely euthanized with CO2 or cervical dislocation.

Anyway, that store sounds horrible. I would inform them of their inhumane practice. Hopefully they can be understanding. If not, I wouldn't return and give them business. Perhaps write a review on them.

I lived in lakeland for a while is it the one where the let the monitor walk around the store?

That's HORRIBLE! And not humane for anything with fur. You can put pinkies into a freezer but anything older than that is wrong. The Animal Welfare Act in florida excludes rats and mice (along with a few other animals) from protection, so it's all up to the person on how the rats are euthanize. but now knowing this, they will NEVER get business from me. It's unethical and anyone who cannot at least value a life, even if it is of a feeder animal, is garbage.

Here's what you should give a shot. My local pet store was doing this and it put a knot in my stomach. I bought a critter keeper dry ice a Rubbermaid and printed up the instructional from this site and physically brought it to them and showed the owner and workers the proper way to do it and left the supplies with them. I came back a month later and they were still using the correct method! 12 dollars out of my pockets and hundred on small animals no longer suffer. Try that, if they are given all the tools needed for t to be done right there are no excuses. They may change....

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Originally Posted by Ridinandreptiles

Here's what you should give a shot. My local pet store was doing this and it put a knot in my stomach. I bought a critter keeper dry ice a Rubbermaid and printed up the instructional from this site and physically brought it to them and showed the owner and workers the proper way to do it and left the supplies with them. I came back a month later and they were still using the correct method! 12 dollars out of my pockets and hundred on small animals no longer suffer. Try that, if they are given all the tools needed for t to be done right there are no excuses. They may change....

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Now that was well done.

That is horrible. I have heard such good things about them but I will not be doing business with them. I didn't think mice and rats were under those sort of laws, kind of like fish, but something needs to be done. I would definitely post on the BOI.

Even though mice and rats are feeders, we still should hold a standard to the way they are kept and euthanized. This goes for all food purpose animals.

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Originally Posted by amps daddy

I lived in lakeland for a while is it the one where the let the monitor walk around the store?

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I'm not sure... There was no monitor walking around when I was there! It is on the same road as the Krispy Kreme and just about a block or two away.


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Originally Posted by aldebono

That is horrible. I have heard such good things about them but I will not be doing business with them. I didn't think mice and rats were under those sort of laws, kind of like fish, but something needs to be done. I would definitely post on the BOI.

Even though mice and rats are feeders, we still should hold a standard to the way they are kept and euthanized. This goes for all food purpose animals.

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It very very disappointing.... Everything was perfect about the store, up until he opened the freezer :( next time I'm down that way I might swing by and see how things are. I feel bad posting on the BOI when I don't really have any other proof besides what I saw.


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Originally Posted by Ridinandreptiles

Here's what you should give a shot. My local pet store was doing this and it put a knot in my stomach. I bought a critter keeper dry ice a Rubbermaid and printed up the instructional from this site and physically brought it to them and showed the owner and workers the proper way to do it and left the supplies with them. I came back a month later and they were still using the correct method! 12 dollars out of my pockets and hundred on small animals no longer suffer. Try that, if they are given all the tools needed for t to be done right there are no excuses. They may change....

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You know what... I might have to try this. Or at least contact them and tell them how I feel about this issue. If enough people speak up they might change.


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Was the person you saw an owner of the store ? Or just an employee ? It is possible the owner does not know about this going on. I would at least try, as calmly as possible given the circumstances, to speak to the owner about it. Tell him how impressed you are overall with the store, tell him how much you were looking forward to being a regular customer, then mention how shocked you were to see this person doing this, and ask if that is a normal practice.

By approaching the owner directly, and also by giving the impression you are pretty sure the owner didn't know it was going on, you give the owner an out. If he DID NOT know about it, he should immediately step up and put an end to it. If he did, and he cares at all about his reputation, he'll fake being shocked and then change the practice anyway.

And if he IS so callus that he shrugs it off, or admits it's standard practice and what is the big deal ? Then you can inform him he will no longer be receiving your business, and that you will be spreading the word about his inhumane practices.

Gale

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Originally Posted by angllady2

Was the person you saw an owner of the store ? Or just an employee ? It is possible the owner does not know about this going on. I would at least try, as calmly as possible given the circumstances, to speak to the owner about it. Tell him how impressed you are overall with the store, tell him how much you were looking forward to being a regular customer, then mention how shocked you were to see this person doing this, and ask if that is a normal practice.

By approaching the owner directly, and also by giving the impression you are pretty sure the owner didn't know it was going on, you give the owner an out. If he DID NOT know about it, he should immediately step up and put an end to it. If he did, and he cares at all about his reputation, he'll fake being shocked and then change the practice anyway.

And if he IS so callus that he shrugs it off, or admits it's standard practice and what is the big deal ? Then you can inform him he will no longer be receiving your business, and that you will be spreading the word about his inhumane practices.

Gale

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No I'm pretty sure I was one of the owners, Steve. Sometime this week when they are open I will give them a call. I will keep you posted on what happens.


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Originally Posted by missriss2012

about 50 rats (from pinks up to almost weaned rats) that were still alive and half frozen.

They just threw the rats in the freezer to freeze to death.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Yes. Wolfy is correct. It is only humane when the animal is in the pinky stage (look at the IACUC protocols)
They have a high resistance to low oxygen and hypoxia. Due to this resistance, they can survive a gas chamber. It's more inhumane to put pinks through a gas chamber and have them live through it than freezing. And according to IACUC, cervical dislocation should not be used on pinks due to their fragile undeveloped tails. You can pull a tail off before their neck breaks. (Among the reptile community, it's somewhat common practice to flick their heads in order to humanely euthanize them)

Anything above the pinky stage (or 2 weeks of age) should be humanely euthanized with CO2 or cervical dislocation.

Anyway, that store sounds horrible. I would inform them of their inhumane practice. Hopefully they can be understanding. If not, I wouldn't return and give them business. Perhaps write a review on them.

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Ok, before anyone gets all in a huff about my post, I agree completely that freezing live rodents is inhumane and wrong. BUT! Before we go jumping on the wagon that this breeder is doing that, let us examine the possibility that they were doing what they thought best for these animals. Now, Marissa, you say you saw about 50 rats, from pinks up to almost weaned. This could be well in the range of 14days old (going off of the age ranges of laynelabs)

Compare Frozen Feeder Rats

Size	Weight (g)	Length (in)	Age (days)	Fur	Weaned
Pinky Feeder Rats	5-9	2+	1-5	No	No
Fuzzy Feeder Rats	14-19	2.5+	6-10	Little	No
Pup Feeder Rats	20-29	3+	11-15	Yes	No
Weaned Feeder Rats	30-40	3.5+	16-19	Yes	Yes
Small Feeder Rats	40-65	4.5+	20-26	Yes	Yes
Small/Med Feeder Rats	70-95	5+	27-30	Yes	Yes
Medium Feeder Rats	100-130	5.5+	31-35	Yes	Yes
Med/Lg Feeder Rats	135-175	6+	35-45	Yes	Yes
Large Feeder Rats	180+	6.5+	45+	Yes	Yes
X-Large Feeder Rats	250-325	7+	55+	Yes	Yes
Jumbo Feeder Rats	325-550	8+	75+	Yes	Yes

Now, taking this information, and that of which was provided of the humane ways to euthanize rats under 2 weeks of age, perhaps, JUST perhaps, we may be jumping the gun for throwing them under the bus. Now, my suggestion would be to call up, or make another trip, and ask how they euthanize small/medium rats or anything over 2 weeks (weaned and up). See what they say, if you're in the area, sometime in the future, stop by and ask to see the euthanasia process (not them doing it persay, but where they do it / how they do it) To avoid the over-the-phone "Oh yea, we do that...the uh..co2 thing..yea.."

Anywho, I hope it was just a case of shock / glancing and that the animals in the freezer were infact all under 2 weeks of age. If they do this to all ages of rats, they are scum, agreed.

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Originally Posted by angllady2

Was the person you saw an owner of the store ? Or just an employee ? It is possible the owner does not know about this going on. I would at least try, as calmly as possible given the circumstances, to speak to the owner about it. Tell him how impressed you are overall with the store, tell him how much you were looking forward to being a regular customer, then mention how shocked you were to see this person doing this, and ask if that is a normal practice.

By approaching the owner directly, and also by giving the impression you are pretty sure the owner didn't know it was going on, you give the owner an out. If he DID NOT know about it, he should immediately step up and put an end to it. If he did, and he cares at all about his reputation, he'll fake being shocked and then change the practice anyway.

And if he IS so callus that he shrugs it off, or admits it's standard practice and what is the big deal ? Then you can inform him he will no longer be receiving your business, and that you will be spreading the word about his inhumane practices.

Gale

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Perfectly said