Desert Females : To Breed or Not To Breed

Hey Everyone,

Just wanted to get everyone's opinions about the desert gene, and what they think about proving females to lay viable clutches in the future? Really interested in the project, and in love with desert combos. I am planning on picking up a few females probably next season, just to raise up in isolated conditions and see what goes on. I am very aware of health issues for females, and how most slug out, or become egg bound and pass away, but I truly believe that they will be proven to reproduce in the not so distant future. What is everyone else's thoughts? Thanks.

-Keith Gronsbell
Balls of Steel Exotics

waste of time and I have no interest in ever spending a dime investing in anything desert

I would love a desert as a pet. As far as a breeding project I will not have one in my rack until they can be proven to lay a viable clutch

I have talked to a few big breeders, and they all say the same thing. That it is a total waste of time trying to breed them. If you want one for a pet that is one thing, but as for an investment I can think of many better ways to spend my hard earned money.

Not worth risking the lives of the girls IMO. When I start caring about the color of a snake more than its life, I'll get out of the hobby.

I just think its pointless for anyone to continue on with desert females from what I have read it is an oviduct issue, so why endanger or risk and animal for what when the issues are pretty well known

I would love a desert girl as a display ball in my living room cuz their colors are nice and I like a living room snake that gets people asking questions about them breeding tho no wouldn't try unless people figured out how to fix their problems then mayne

It is sad to say from a breeding stand point they just take up a tub that could be filled with something else. I was really hoping after the PE faculty burnt down, that following breeding season someone would finally get a desert female to lay eggs. I think that would have helped roybn and PE realize that all their efforts did not go down the drain.

My own personal stance on the desert would be they make great display animals but should never be bred. Putting a female in danger like that will never be worth it for me. The animals health always needs to come first.

Sent from my galaxy s3 on tapatalk2

If females werent dying/having severe heath issues it could be a project but they are. Personally, I wouldnt feel right about purposely risking my animals life just to dink around hoping maybe I find the fix. Unfortunately, the best way to know exactly what is going on would probably require lots of funds and professional research.

I myself ran across this dilemma a few months ago, and ultimately decided against it completely, deciding to avoid the gene completely (even though when I saw the Tiger Spider and Pin I fell in love with a few examples of the morphs) I came to the same conclusion as several others. It simply isn't worth the risk to the snakes for personal desires.

Not to breed.

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Originally Posted by kgronsbell

Hey Everyone,

Just wanted to get everyone's opinions about the desert gene, and what they think about proving females to lay viable clutches in the future? Really interested in the project, and in love with desert combos. I am planning on picking up a few females probably next season, just to raise up in isolated conditions and see what goes on. I am very aware of health issues for females, and how most slug out, or become egg bound and pass away, but I truly believe that they will be proven to reproduce in the not so distant future. What is everyone else's thoughts? Thanks.

-Keith Gronsbell
Balls of Steel Exotics

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The fact that you say you are aware of the issues, and know that it causes them serious harm and most times death, and you STILL plan on picking up not only one but a few females next season to try and " crack the code " makes me seriously sick to my stomach.

There are tons of information on the desert females available that strongly suggest not to breed them.

If your going to kill these females on purpose, then you shouldnt be alloud to keep them.

Seriously just grinds my gears big time that this is even still up for discussion.

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

Not worth risking the lives of the girls IMO. When I start caring about the color of a snake more than its life, I'll get out of the hobby.

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This. I'm shocked that people are still considering breeding desert girls. I want a desert male myself someday, but that's because there's no chance breeding will kill them

The morph isnt even *that* cool imo. So no i really dont have any interest in them and dont think they should be bred.

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Originally Posted by kgronsbell

I truly believe that they will be proven to reproduce in the not so distant future. What is everyone else's thoughts? Thanks.

-Keith Gronsbell
Balls of Steel Exotics

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You believe that a fix to the oviducts is going to happen in the not so distant future?
Please explain how your going to fix this issue :confusd:

How many viable clutches have been dropped in the 10 or so years that they've been around??


ZERO

Hmm we can send in super small worker robots to fix the problem! There just gots to make the tiny bots then ill make the first super form!

Well, if you had done a little bit more research upon the genetic issue and true problems with desert females, I am certain you would have read the problem is not a constriction within the oviduct which causes them to become egg bound. First, as stated by Chad from Pro Exotics himself, many females are not able to breed due to the stress they interpret from changing locations, from breeders to breeders and changing feeding habits. As well, I have talked to multiple breeders, including Brian of BHB who believe with a little bit of tweaking environmental conditions, such as temperature and humidity during breeding season, that females have a much better chance of producing not only eggs, but a viable clutch. The year of the fire at Pro Exotics, Chad was planning on proving out his second generation of female deserts to produce a viable clutch, and change the reptile world's view of desert ball pythons. Due to all of the research I have done in the past, I am inquisitive about attempting to prove out the Desert female problem, and will not contain my curiosity until there is scientific evidence that female Deserts will never be able to produce a viable clutch. And no, I do not want to kill innocent females, I am trying to just attempt in the near future to purchase a female or two, and see their activity physically, and sexually(breeding) to find a solution to one of the many wonders to the ball python world. Thank you all very much for your responses.

-Keith Gronsbell

Actually, I think you need to do a little more research. Stress, smaller body size, environmental tweaking were all theories BEFORE people started doing necropsies on dead females. They discovered that there are oviduct abnormalities with female deserts. The worst cases involve extra tissue forming a spiderweb like structure in the oviduct that prevent eggs from passing. This will not be fixed by anything environmental.

Google is your friend.

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Originally Posted by kgronsbell

Well, if you had done a little bit more research upon the genetic issue and true problems with desert females, I am certain you would have read the problem is not a constriction within the oviduct which causes them to become egg bound. First, as stated by Chad from Pro Exotics himself, many females are not able to breed due to the stress they interpret from changing locations, from breeders to breeders and changing feeding habits. As well,I have talked to multiple breeders, including Brian of BHB who believe with a little bit of tweaking environmental conditions, such as temperature and humidity during breeding season, that females have a much better chance of producing not only eggs, but a viable clutch. The year of the fire at Pro Exotics, Chad was planning on proving out his second generation of female deserts to produce a viable clutch, and change the reptile world's view of desert ball pythons. Due to all of the research I have done in the past, I am inquisitive about attempting to prove out the Desert female problem, and will not contain my curiosity until there is scientific evidence that female Deserts will never be able to produce a viable clutch. And no, I do not want to kill innocent females, I am trying to just attempt in the near future to purchase a female or two, and see their activity physically, and sexually(breeding) to find a solution to one of the many wonders to the ball python world. Thank you all very much for your responses.

-Keith Gronsbell

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Temps and humidity aren't going to change a thing! LOL

None of those excuses fly for a Morph that has been around close to 10 years and not one female has laid a viable clutch!!!

Have you seen this thread?...
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1990729,1990729

Yes I've seen the thread, and not to worry, and I don't want to seem like someone who changes their mind on a dime. I am not planning on breeding the deserts immediately when they are ready. I would like to obtain them, and research with fellow breeders to attempt to come to some sort of conclusion or method to allow female deserts to produce viable clutches. I do appreciate the warnings from everyone, and I truly thank you all for making sure I am aware of all that is occurring with the gene. I especially took Cold Blooded Addictions comments to heart, and he showed some true evidence to help me and everyone reading this out. I bid all who commented, with simply, thank you.

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Originally Posted by kgronsbell

Well, if you had done a little bit more research upon the genetic issue and true problems with desert females, I am certain you would have read the problem is not a constriction within the oviduct which causes them to become egg bound. First, as stated by Chad from Pro Exotics himself, many females are not able to breed due to the stress they interpret from changing locations, from breeders to breeders and changing feeding habits. As well, I have talked to multiple breeders, including Brian of BHB who believe with a little bit of tweaking environmental conditions, such as temperature and humidity during breeding season, that females have a much better chance of producing not only eggs, but a viable clutch. The year of the fire at Pro Exotics, Chad was planning on proving out his second generation of female deserts to produce a viable clutch, and change the reptile world's view of desert ball pythons. Due to all of the research I have done in the past, I am inquisitive about attempting to prove out the Desert female problem, and will not contain my curiosity until there is scientific evidence that female Deserts will never be able to produce a viable clutch. And no, I do not want to kill innocent females, I am trying to just attempt in the near future to purchase a female or two, and see their activity physically, and sexually(breeding) to find a solution to one of the many wonders to the ball python world. Thank you all very much for your responses.

-Keith Gronsbell

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Keith, if you truly believe the part in bold, then I have a bridge to sell you. As Jon pointed out, 10 years and NOTHING....temps and humidity have been tweaked. More time/size has been given. Why anybody would buy into those theories in the first place boggles my mind. To think that out of 100's of morphs, that only one would need different environmental conditions or more size to them is grasping at straws, IMO. Truth is, those theories only came into play because their is only so much we can control in captivity to begin with. And the info on deserts isn't really new...I passed on desert females nearly 2 years ago due to what had been seen at the time.

I just don't see any reason to attempt this project unless you have some kind of magical cure to fix oviducts that has somehow evaded every single other person who tried, and are trying to make money off it. I find it morally worng to attempt this knowing it will cause certain, and likely horribly painful deaths for the females. While I understand the drive to succeed and perhaps be the first person to accomplish a feat where others have failed, this is not the way to do it.

The only way I could really see anyone wanting to attempt to breed female deserts would be if they were going to invest the massive amounts of money and time to pretty much monitor every step of their breeding with an ultrasound/ xrays/ CT scans and basically perform a C section either when the eggs are ready or early if a problem is detected. Imo it couldn't possibly be worth it, wouldn't help us get any closer to them breeding on their own, and it would still be risking the animals life. I personally feel it also would border on cruelty putting the animal through that, but hey, ppl still breed English bulldogs and its kinna the same for them.

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2

I don't even want to breed my male.

Is the survival rate for a female you need to do a c section on high even? I've never looked up snake c section, seems like a waste going that far tho anyhow

I own a desert female (Tiger - Desert/Enchi) and bought her expressly as a pet. I love the morph. I loved them when they were 5k+ for combos and I love them now at $400 for a tiger female. I used to breed and always wanted to create a new morph or produce cool combos like many other small breeders. I even dinked with WC stuff and I enjoyed it, but at the end of the day, I wanted animals I could display and enjoy as pets.
We keep them in tubs and racks and never get to see them unless we're cleaning or feeding. My desert girl is my favorite animal and even if someone were to produce a viable clutch, I still wouldn't breed her. The odds are still low. After ten years, the numbers say that the risk is high and you're not going to get anything. If you were somehow able to produce a viable clutch, odds still say that your girl would be the exception, not the rule. You'd have to breed that line out successfully for two or three generations in order to prove it out and if it doesn't take, you kill a cool animal.

I've read all the research. I thought about the theory of multi-gene morphs washing out the oviduct problem but it's been tried and it has failed. I doubt there's anything you could concoct as a hypothesis that hasn't been done. There are only so many variables - size, age, temps, stable environment, etc. All that stuff has been addressed and nada.

Sorry to sound like the rest of the crowd, but you'd be better served to just pick a different project. Get a female desert and do what I do, just enjoy the hell out of her and have that be enough.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps95cf2838.jpg

FYI, my girl eats like a champ, is as sweet as any BP I've ever owned, and keeps getting better looking with each shed. She's a looker and I'm happy to have her as a pet. We love snakes and BP's , right? When did it become more about breeding and producing than owning and enjoying?

Completely True, Thank you.

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

Not worth risking the lives of the girls IMO. When I start caring about the color of a snake more than its life, I'll get out of the hobby.

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Took the words out of my mouth. Though I told myself when I stopped being able to name my snakes I would stop getting more. But desert females are not worth it to me. With that said next season I am trying a cinni x cinni pair. I was tempted to get a Desert female not too long ago but decided it wasnt worth loosing a gorgeous animal for greed of trying to make babies.

Here is my PET.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/SPJ01/002-26.jpg

The desert gene makes the crosses glow and IMO there is nothing wrong with having a beautiful pet ball python.
This girl will never breed but she is awesome to look at.