Feeder Rodent Businesses Closing?

For awhile now I've been hearing "there's a shortage in rodents because a few big time suppliers have gone out of business." I know about Rodent Pro's issues with the zoonotic disease outbreak, but I haven't heard a peep about anybody else. There does seem to be a shortage out there, though. One website I went to posted that they're only accepting orders from current customers because demand is so high. Anybody know anything about this?

Right when I started breeding my own my buddy said I picked a good time to start cuz lot of businesses are going under he listed a few off

I know the site you're talking about.. I buy from local people at shows so I haven't been paying attention to the big people

Rodent breeding as a business seems to go in cycles(like most things). While there's usually a few big names that stay around... and some small ones that also stick around... there's always some people who get into breeding rodents, figure they have enough to sell extra... need to expand because of demand... get too big, get overwhelmed, get tired of it, don't make enough money... and they leave. So for a while there will be lots of breeders and tons of available rodents. The price might drop some, because breeders are competing for business. As the price drops, the profit margins shrinks, and businesses shut down because they have to put too much money and effort into producing rodents that they barely make any profit off of. As some businesses close, the demand goes up, the price increases, and there's a shortage of rodents, and new people think "Hey, I should breed some extra rodents..." and the cycle begins again.

It's easy to see it locally, where I think about 4 different large breeders have come and gone in my general vicinity. None of them had a catastrophic issue, it was just that cleaning/feeding/etc for the lower profits just didn't make economic sense and they closed down. Some of the big companies tend to have contracts supplying places like zoos too, and that's a good steady income.

IMO one of the reasons there is a shortage is because the reptile/snake industry has grown exponentially for years now and the feeder business has not. In other words every year you have more and more folks who get into snakes and start collections but you don't have the same growth with feeder rodents.

Breeding rodents takes a lot of work and there are no days off. They need food and water every day even if you have rack systems and watering systems they must be checked everyday or you could loose large numbers of rodents from floods or clogged lines or temperature spikes, etc.. I breed rodents and Christmas day before I went to see family I had to see my rodents, there are no days off. Luckily I have a partner so someone is always making sure everything is OK. As mentioned before many times someone new pops in and drops prices to pick up business only to soon realize it's a lot of work and isn't worth it. Costs of food and bedding keep rising but yet everyone wants the cheapest prices. I have heard of breeders who build up clients only to loose them to someone else who under cuts them and eventually both of them go out of business because the work is endless and the profits just aren't there. And again the demand keeps growing so in the long run the cheap prices aren't necessarily good when no one wants to do it anymore and rodent suppliers start vanishing.

Rodent breeding is a nightmare because the consumer is cheap. Everyone is thinking it. I said it.

If anyone knew what it cost to raise a rat from a pink to Jumbo size they would poop right in their pants.

The only way to be successful and profitable in breeding rodents is to put animals together when they are way to young to be breeding, keep them pumping out babies in the most high density system you can, accept a high mortality rate under those conditions, and then replace your breeding stock every four or five litters to keep up with the people that want large and jumbo rats.

It is a disgusting industry. FILTHY disgusting.

If you had any idea what a large scale, profitable rodent breeding facility looked like a lot of you would cry.

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Originally Posted by PatriotPythons

Rodent breeding is a nightmare because the consumer is cheap. Everyone is thinking it. I said it.

If anyone knew what it cost to raise a rat from a pink to Jumbo size they would poop right in their pants.

The only way to be successful and profitable in breeding rodents is to put animals together when they are way to young to be breeding, keep them pumping out babies in the most high density system you can, accept a high mortality rate under those conditions, and then replace your breeding stock every four or five litters to keep up with the people that want large and jumbo rats.

It is a disgusting industry. FILTHY disgusting.

If you had any idea what a large scale, profitable rodent breeding facility looked like a lot of you would cry.

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Have you got any personal experience with rodent raising or are you just passing along what you've gleaned off youtube? Do you or have you ever raised large number of rodents? How many for how long, if you have?

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Originally Posted by PatriotPythons

Rodent breeding is a nightmare because the consumer is cheap. Everyone is thinking it. I said it.

If anyone knew what it cost to raise a rat from a pink to Jumbo size they would poop right in their pants.

The only way to be successful and profitable in breeding rodents is to put animals together when they are way to young to be breeding, keep them pumping out babies in the most high density system you can, accept a high mortality rate under those conditions, and then replace your breeding stock every four or five litters to keep up with the people that want large and jumbo rats.

It is a disgusting industry. FILTHY disgusting.

If you had any idea what a large scale, profitable rodent breeding facility looked like a lot of you would cry.

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You're complaining about the one or two exceptions.
And I really don't think you know what you're talking about either.


More than half the people here on this forum breed their own rodents.
And while I don't do this, the most preferable method is harem breeding. No one has had any of the issues you are saying regarding the health of the animals in general(give or take the stray exception here and there). I'm inclined to say, the rats probably live better than most pet rats. And general rule of thumb is to breed a female for about a year or until you see a decrease in her litter size.

And Wrong! It is not the most profitable to start animals too young for breeding. Quite the opposite really. Smaller and younger rats don't produce enough pups or any at all. And if they do, you're right, the mortality rate is high. No body wants a breeder that isn't producing any feedable feeders. That's counter productive. Breeding larger females is always better. They have larger litters more successfully. The pup mortality rate is low.

I don't breed on a huge scale, but its large enough that requires me to have a litter once a week or two. I breed pet quality animals and specialize in certain coats,colors, and ears. I never had issues selling my rats. I refuse to sell my rats at feeder prices actually. My asking price is reasonable and still cheaper than pet store pet rats, but people still pay more. The last guy who picked up 2 dumbos gave me $30 when I asked for half of that.

I sell pet rats to pay for my breeding operation. Selling $30 worth of pets is enough to pay for the supplies and food. 50# bag of food is $27 a month. Bedding is $3 a month. The rats pay for themselves, thus my snakes eat for free(not including my time and effort maintaining the colony).

The rest of the rats not sold are fed to my snakes and ferrets. I breed my own rats because its easier and cheaper than buying from a supplier. Plus I feed live. I also choose to breed my own because I want my snakes to get quality food. I know what goes into my rats, thus I know what goes into my snakes.


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I agree with satomi,

We breed out rats on a small scale, well I guess you can say its growing... At the moment we have about 150 pinkys, and about..... 25 breeders, (about 1.4 ratio)
Each mom is placed in an individual tub once she is recognizably pregnant.We believe this to definitely lower the mortality rate and stress level on both the babies/mom.

My wife sells rats (colors, hairless, dumbos, you name it she probably has it). She sells them locally as pets. We also have enough to feed all 17 of our snakes. Plus,i just got my little ASF project started. :P

We (when I say we, I mean I :) clean out all the cages once a week. Which usually takes about two hours altogether. Not bad for being able to enjoy our snakes :)

All this started off as a way to save money and its really really helped. I can GUARANTEE if I did not breed rats, we would not be able to keep snakes. I also think we benefit because we know what the rats are eating, what conditions they are kept in and what is eventually going into our snakes, instead of just hoping the rodents you just bought we're properly taken care of and don't carry something. :/


Every Month 1/2:

Aspen --(4.38 compressed cubic feet)
$14.00

Bag of quality dog food (40 lbs)
$20.00

We do just fine on a small budget. I have never paid attention to the big time rat breeders. (Except for Rodent Pro's outbreak it was all over the forum). I guess we just have no need to, the rats pay for themselves.

I had a whole big long post typed out, but its not worth posting. If you guys want to kill the messenger than so be it.

Just remember, I didn't name names. I didn't call anyone out. I just pointed out what I've seen with my own two eyes.

I went out to Pennsylvania dutch country a few years back to buy a guy out of rats. He was keeping them on turkey bedding, about the dirtiest pine known to man, and all he fed them was hard corn. That is not an isolated incident. It happens all over the place.

Has anyone ever bought frozen jumbos and thawed them out to find out that they had their throats slit? I won't say all, because I can't verify it, but a lot of those rats are from labs. They experiment on them, then they give the carcasses away if you know who to talk to. These rats are very often sold as feeders at reptile shows. Its not cool in my book, but I don't have to live with the guilt of doing it because I don't do it.

Its a thankless industry and highly competitive and people cut corners all the time for the sake of making an extra ten cents per rat.

I am at full production if I have 180 pairs running. That would be 30 racks full of rats for me. I don't venture into the sales end because of what I have seen. I could never compete with the factory farms.

I thank you guys for your concern, but please don't shoot the messenger. I'm not the bad guy here.

I breed just enough rats to feed my retics and supply a few close friends with food for their snakes, bird, dogs etc and some people do buy rats from me as pets. I only breed them in pairs. I probably do it the least cost efficient way that there is LOL, but I like to keep track of the production and improve the species while I am at it.

I used to breed all of my own rodents for years and I can tell you it's a major PITA, if you don't have the time to keep up with it properly your productivity can go WAY down. Eventually I was spending more time babysitting rodents then I was spending with my snakes. I just got so sick of spending so much of my valuble time cleaning/feeding and watering feeders that I ended up getting rid of most of my rodents and now I just buy frozen. Yes the prices have gotten ridiculous, but I'd rather have the extra time. I do still keep a few colonies of mice for hoppers to feed my babies, and a couple colonies of rats for those stubborn live feeders, but mostly I'm enjoying being a little poorer but with more time on my hands.

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Originally Posted by PatriotPythons

Has anyone ever bought frozen jumbos and thawed them out to find out that they had their throats slit? I won't say all, because I can't verify it, but a lot of those rats are from labs. They experiment on them, then they give the carcasses away if you know who to talk to. These rats are very often sold as feeders at reptile shows. Its not cool in my book, but I don't have to live with the guilt of doing it because I don't do it.

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May I ask where these rats came from? I'd like to find out which labs they came from.
I work in a research lab and it is illegal to resell laboratory rats as feeders. All research subjects must be terminated humanely (Co2, cervical dislocation, or anesthesia overdose) at the end of a study, then processed as bio hazard waste (usually burned). That is seriously a violation of public safety and should be reported.

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Originally Posted by PatriotPythons

I had a whole big long post typed out, but its not worth posting. If you guys want to kill the messenger than so be it.

Just remember, I didn't name names. I didn't call anyone out. I just pointed out what I've seen with my own two eyes.

I went out to Pennsylvania dutch country a few years back to buy a guy out of rats. He was keeping them on turkey bedding, about the dirtiest pine known to man, and all he fed them was hard corn. That is not an isolated incident. It happens all over the place.

Has anyone ever bought frozen jumbos and thawed them out to find out that they had their throats slit? I won't say all, because I can't verify it, but a lot of those rats are from labs. They experiment on them, then they give the carcasses away if you know who to talk to. These rats are very often sold as feeders at reptile shows. Its not cool in my book, but I don't have to live with the guilt of doing it because I don't do it.

Its a thankless industry and highly competitive and people cut corners all the time for the sake of making an extra ten cents per rat.

I am at full production if I have 180 pairs running. That would be 30 racks full of rats for me. I don't venture into the sales end because of what I have seen. I could never compete with the factory farms.

I thank you guys for your concern, but please don't shoot the messenger. I'm not the bad guy here.

I breed just enough rats to feed my retics and supply a few close friends with food for their snakes, bird, dogs etc and some people do buy rats from me as pets. I only breed them in pairs. I probably do it the least cost efficient way that there is LOL, but I like to keep track of the production and improve the species while I am at it.

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So you are saying that almost all (big) feeder breeders cut corners and do not provide their animals with what they need, based off of seeing a handful of opperations!? opperations which you won't even name? I haven't heard these accusations concering any of the top dogs before, so yes, I would think that small opperations might cut corners to try and out-do the top dogs. But that is why they don't stay around very long.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

May I ask where these rats came from? I'd like to find out which labs they came from.
I work in a research lab and it is illegal to resell laboratory rats as feeders. All research subjects must be terminated humanely (Co2, cervical dislocation, or anesthesia overdose) at the end of a study, then processed as bio hazard waste (usually burned). That is seriously a violation of public safety and should be reported.

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A batch of frozen mice I bought one time all had numerical tattoos on their tails.

I don't know where they came from originally and I got them from some guy at an expo as my regular supplier had no rodents to sell.

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Originally Posted by Salamander

A batch of frozen mice I bought one time all had numerical tattoos on their tails.

I don't know where they came from originally and I got them from some guy at an expo as my regular supplier had no rodents to sell.

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I wonder where they came from.

Though we don't use tattoos to mark animals. Usually we do ear notches or ear tags. Notches in certain places of the ear is a specific number. I guess the tats are a clue. I'll ask my supervisor about it.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Salamander

A batch of frozen mice I bought one time all had numerical tattoos on their tails.

I don't know where they came from originally and I got them from some guy at an expo as my regular supplier had no rodents to sell.

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I have heard of some small rodent hobbyists tattooing their animals. Idea being it would be easier to identify them and/or harder to prevent theft/forgery of paperwork. Not sure how well that worked out for them, but just came to mind when you mentioned this. I have no idea what labs do, since the only lab I have worked in had spiders not rodents.

I can confirm that some of the biggest reptile breeders source rats from laboratory leftovers.

What exactly are the rules pertaining to laboratory specimens? I would imagine that they frequently have excess stock that they need to get rid of that have never been used in tests but I'd be pretty upset to get rodents that have been exposed to some disease pathogens or given injections of some experimental drug.

Hi,

I'd have hoped the only ones distributed would have been the control group?


dr del

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Originally Posted by PatriotPythons

I had a whole big long post typed out, but its not worth posting. If you guys want to kill the messenger than so be it.

Just remember, I didn't name names. I didn't call anyone out. I just pointed out what I've seen with my own two eyes.

I went out to Pennsylvania dutch country a few years back to buy a guy out of rats. He was keeping them on turkey bedding, about the dirtiest pine known to man, and all he fed them was hard corn. That is not an isolated incident. It happens all over the place.

Has anyone ever bought frozen jumbos and thawed them out to find out that they had their throats slit? I won't say all, because I can't verify it, but a lot of those rats are from labs. They experiment on them, then they give the carcasses away if you know who to talk to. These rats are very often sold as feeders at reptile shows. Its not cool in my book, but I don't have to live with the guilt of doing it because I don't do it.

Its a thankless industry and highly competitive and people cut corners all the time for the sake of making an extra ten cents per rat.

I am at full production if I have 180 pairs running. That would be 30 racks full of rats for me. I don't venture into the sales end because of what I have seen. I could never compete with the factory farms.

I thank you guys for your concern, but please don't shoot the messenger. I'm not the bad guy here.

I breed just enough rats to feed my retics and supply a few close friends with food for their snakes, bird, dogs etc and some people do buy rats from me as pets. I only breed them in pairs. I probably do it the least cost efficient way that there is LOL, but I like to keep track of the production and improve the species while I am at it.

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This just doesn't sound right. Or maybe it's a little right, but not to the degree you seem to be implying. I have never, in decades of rodent feeding, seen a rat with its throat cut. That I'd like some proof of before I actually believe it.

Not everyone is just shoveling rat crap to make a dime more. Some do it the best they can, this I personally know. I also know that it IS a crappy business with some really reprehensible people in it, which is why I am willing to believe what you say provided you produce some proof. Short of that, sounds a lot like sour grapes to me.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

This just doesn't sound right. Or maybe it's a little right, but not to the degree you seem to be implying. I have never, in decades of rodent feeding, seen a rat with its throat cut. That I'd like some proof of before I actually believe it.

Not everyone is just shoveling rat crap to make a dime more. Some do it the best they can, this I personally know. I also know that it IS a crappy business with some really reprehensible people in it, which is why I am willing to believe what you say provided you produce some proof. Short of that, sounds a lot like sour grapes to me.

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???

I can personally say that is have got a bunch of jumbo rats with their throats cut. I no longer feed frozen so I do not have any to take a picture of but I have seen them, just never put much thought into it.

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Originally Posted by EAC Reptiles

I can personally say that is have got a bunch of jumbo rats with their throats cut. I no longer feed frozen so I do not have any to take a picture of but I have seen them, just never put much thought into it.

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How many and who did they come from? In all the years I've been doing this I have never heard of throat cut rats being sold as feeders. Ever try to hold an adult rat? Ever imagine trying to hold one of those slippery buggers down while slitting it's throat? Umpossable. I suppose there could be a device or machine for such, but it's just so far fetched and impractical.

I think there were close to 10 or so. I don't know who they came from, it was awhile ago. I also have had mice from rodent pro with no heads.

I can't breed my own rodents as I live in a small apartment, and my landlords would freak. I even had to pay a deposit to have my snakes, (and lizards), and they made me promise in writing to only feed F/T to the snakes and mealworms to the lizards.....no crickets allowed, (specifically so I would not try to breed my own, I had to promise so they would allow me to have the critters). Though I could try to do it on the sly, it's not worth an eviction notice. So, I'm always looking for a better mousetrap so to speak. The chain pet stores are hugely overpriced on F/T IMHO, but I found a locally-owned mom & pop who breed their own and charge about a third less than the biggies do. Only problem is they are occasionally out for weeks at a time, so I have to stock up when I can. I will probably give Layne Labs or Rodent Pro a try one of these days, but the shipping costs are brutal and it's only cost effective per-rodent if you order upwards of a hundred at a time. It just so happens that the mom & pop sells F/T mice so cheap I can buy three mice for the cost of one rat of any size, (even teens and fuzzies). Therefore my snakes, even the adults, get fed large mice most of the time. It costs me less to feed three large mice than one med rat, so other than my biggest female, (who gets a med rat usually), all the snakes are usually fed smaller, more frequent meals, (shhh, don't tell the snakes, they just think I'm spoiling them!). I pay $1.89 for mice, while any rat is $5.99

As to cleanliness when breeding rodents, like all things it depends how it's done. I've seen large-scale pet-specific rodent facilities that smelled like an ammonia factory, mainly because they just didn't bother to keep it consistently clean. However, I have also seen large-scale lab facilities that were breeding rodents for scientific purposes where you could eat off the floor and couldn't smell much of anything. I bred my share of rodents in past decades, and if cleaned regularly the smell can be managed, but it is labor intensive. I agree with whoever suggested harem breeding, that's the way to go.

S

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Originally Posted by wilomn

How many and who did they come from? In all the years I've been doing this I have never heard of throat cut rats being sold as feeders. Ever try to hold an adult rat? Ever imagine trying to hold one of those slippery buggers down while slitting it's throat? Umpossable. I suppose there could be a device or machine for such, but it's just so far fetched and impractical.

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I was completely with you until I was browsing the feeder section on Fauna and low and behold someone is selling cutthroat mice, rats, guinea pigs and rabbits! Apparently the drain the blood for the plasma. So my guess would be they have some kind of a device they mount the rodent in to slit the throat and drain the blood.

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Originally Posted by C&H Exotic Morphs

I was completely with you until I was browsing the feeder section on Fauna and low and behold someone is selling cutthroat mice, rats, guinea pigs and rabbits! Apparently the drain the blood for the plasma. So my guess would be they have some kind of a device they mount the rodent in to slit the throat and drain the blood.

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hmmmmm, I seem to have missed that one. got a link?

Many years ago I did get a load of frozen mice shipped to me with the thoats cut. I can't remember the name of the place I ordered them from, but I believe they were from AZ and they went out of business a long time ago. The cuts were not side to side but from chin to sternum. I assumed that these had been lab mice that had been euthanized and something removed from their throats to study under a microscope or something like that. I never really thought much about it until reading about these throat cut rats.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

hmmmmm, I seem to have missed that one. got a link?

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Sorry about that, I thought I posted the link but obviously forgot to.
Here it is.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...d.php?t=368230

I did see that one but I thought he misspelled rate as rat.

I sent him a pm for clarity and will let you know if he answers.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I did see that one but I thought he misspelled rate as rat.

I sent him a pm for clarity and will let you know if he answers.

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It's quite clear he cut the throats of the animals. It said they were bled for plasma and repeatedly said they were cut throated or whatever.

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