Dreamsicle mission

Im in no way new to snakes, but breading is killing me. For now i ultimately want to learn about piebalds and my mission, the beautiful Dreamsicle.

So my problem is i was thinking a 100% het piebald x 100% het lavender albino woud enentually get me the desired snake right? Or am i even on the right track?

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A 100% het pied x 100% het lavender will produce animals that are 50% possible het for both genes. Statistically speaking, only 1/4 (25%) of the hets produced will actually be carrying the gene.

I recommend at least using a visual pied, so you can increase each animal's chance of being a true double het to 50%.

... But if you can't afford that, the best strategy is to make as many female possible double hets as you can, hold those back, and then purchase a 100% x 100% guaranteed double het male. (Guaranteed double het dreamsicle males are still expensive, but nothing like the double het females.). It's very difficult to prove out possible het females with a possible het male.

So im confused. Ok so say i breed the 100% pied het n lavender albino het n get 2 females. Would i breed each to father to increase chance or?

Sorry starting on low budget/maximum enjoyment thrill ride. Cant afford much at first but also wanting to fully understand this. Looked at guide on forum for genetics, just still fully not understanding it.

What would the easiest morph to start and learn on be by using only het x normal to achieve visible piebald... Sorry if im asking to much

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If you breed the 2 daughters to the father, you can prove them out for whichever gene the father is carrying. Let's assume Mom is a het pied and Dad is a het lavender, because that's probably cheaper. If you breed the daughters back to their father, they might produce some lavender albinos. But you still don't know for sure if either of the daughters (or the offspring they produce) are het for pied. And you won't produce a dreamsicle with the daughter/father pairings.

The only way to produce a dreamsicle is to breed an animal that is carrying at least one copy of both genes to another animal that is carrying at least one copy of both genes.

Some of the brothers from that original breeding might be true double hets (again, you'd expect 25% of them to be), but which one is the real deal? You have no way to tell, and you can only test one male at a time by breeding to either the mother or the sisters. (A single 100% het or visual male can "prove out" multiple possible het females in one year, but a single 100% het or visual female can really only "prove out" one male per year.)

So that's why I recommend saving up and buying a guaranteed double het male the year after you produce the possible double het females.

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Sorry, recessive genes are a pain to work with, aren't they? And possible hets just make it harder.

So for instance I already have my eyes on 1 100% het piebald female and 1 100% het lavender albino male and a normal female. F/ M/ F. With only using these 3 snakes what would maximize my chances of success.

Het to het breeding is a long process. Lots of variables. If a dreamsicle is your goal I'd save up and buy a visual piebald and a visual lavendar albino to breed and then all of the off spring are 100% double het. Keep in mind that whichever one is the female you would want to buy it a year before the male so they mature about the same time if you are buying hatchlings. Then you breed brother to sister for your chance at getting the dreamsicle. Worldofballpythons.com and owalreptiles.com both have genetic calculators that will let you see the odds of what x what = what. Also vmsherps.com has some good materialon genetics that I found very helpful. Also john berry's book guide to ball python morphs volume 1 is a cook book for breeding morphs. Not sure I got the title right though. Good luck and doing your home work is the biggest factor at getting where you want to be.

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Originally Posted by H.o.F.R

Also john berry's book guide to ball python morphs volume 1 is a cook book for breeding morphs. Not sure I got the title right though.

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The full titles is Designer-Morphs, Volume One: Ball Python and Boa Constrictor, A Guide to Mutations and Variations by John Berry! Not sure where to buy it but on Amazon, it's priced about $60 which to be honest, I think there are sites that will provide the same info for free, like WorldofBallPythons.com and right here on this forum!

The normal female doesn't help you at all with the dreamsicle project, because you're working with two recessive genes. All she'll produce is lots of possible het lavender albinos if bred to that male. (Which could help you produce a visual lavender, if you breed those daughters back to the dad. And having a visual lavender will make the project quite a bit easier. So she could help you several years down the line.)

It's fine start with those two hets and make the 50% possible het girls. It's a hard way to do it, but it does get your foot in the door. But you then need to find a double het male to breed the girls to, and their brothers aren't very good bets for that job.

But that's 3 or 4 years down the line, if you're starting with a hatchling female het pied. By the time you hatch those possible double het girls, it's likely that 100% guaranteed double het males will have come down in price. Come back when you hatch them, we'll tell you your options.

Ty misterkyte the book is also out dated with all the new morphs that pop up seemingly weekly. But it is good reference material for the beginner.
Also to the op: consider the years of growing possible hets and feeding and maintanence of them and the frustrations of waiting to hit the genetic lotto by choosing to go the het to het route. Honestly I think you would save money in the long run buy buying a visual pied female this year and a visual lav albino male next year buy the time you raise up an army of possible hets and another thing to consider is that possible hets from an unknown breeder are about as valuable as normals so I really urge you to think on this for awhile before diving head first onto this path.

If you are on a strict budget then I would start with a male 100% het pied and a female 100% het pied. Breed them together until you produce a visual pied. Then get a male 100% het lavender Albino and a female lavender albino and breed them together until you get a visual lavender albino.

Once you have a visual pied and a visual lavender albino that you can breed (a male female pair: doesn't matter which is which) breed them together. This will produce a clutch that are all 100% het for pied and 100% het for lavender albino (aka 100% het dreamsicle) Breed a pair from this clutch together (or multiple pairs to increase your chances) These pairings have the potential to produce a dreamsicle.

It may seem like a long process but this is the most direct route without purchasing a visual pied and/or visual lavender albino. These types of projects take time and resources that is why these snakes cost so much.

You need to become very familiar with the process of just a single recessive gene before you should start thinking about a double recessive gene snake.

Here, think of it like this.. You very likely carry the recessive albino gene. Many people do but the only way you would have an albino child is if you hooked up with someone else who also carried the albino gene.. Lets say you do carry the albino gene. You can not expect to have an albino child with someone who has "normal" genetics and does not carry the gene also right?

Same thing.. You can not make pieds by breeding a 100% het to a normal.

Visual x normal = 100%hets. All babies will look normal but will all be guaranteed 100%het for that gene..

Visual x visual = all visual. No normal appearing snakes at all..

100% het x 100% het = 66% possible hets. All babies will appear normal but each one has a 66% chance of actually being het for that gene. They can not be called hets until they are bred to another het, possible het, or visual, and actually produce a visual. Then they become 100% hets because they have been bred and proven to be so. Until then, they are just 66% possibles.

100% het x normal = 50% possible hets. All babies will be normal in appearance but each one has a 50% chance of carrying the gene. All the same rules apply as above..

Anything less is not worth mentioning. Like breeding 50% to 50% and so on.. Your odds of ever actually proving anything out and producing a visual drop down so low that its not worth the time or effort in my opinion to go lower than 66%hets. Plus, any baby you produce that did not come from an actual visual, which means any baby that is only some lower percentage of het NOT 100%, is only worth the price if a normal. They can not be sold for het prices unless they are 100% hets.


There is my laymen's terms to make it a bit easier hopefully. That's just for one recessive gene. When you start mixing two in there, it gets even more difficult if you can't afford to invest in at least one visual. I suggest in saving your money and getting a male pied. They have dropped down to as low as $600 now. Then a female het lavender. Or vice versa. Considering how many years it would take to produce an actual visual of each by starting with only a 100% het of each, which realistically could be 6 years or more, you can save up a few hundred dollars more in a much shorter amount of time and cut your project time in half.. You also would not need to hold back every single baby you produced, house them, feed them, then breed them 2-3 years down the road just to see if any of them are actually het for either of those 2 genes.

So many thanks guys. Think im finally gettin it. Just trying to readjust my thinking.

Ok so lets just say i purchase 2 100% het pied snakes and mate them. Basically all offspring are 100% as well but a certain percentage will be visual correct? But the only way to get 100% visual is vis x vis...

If this is correct u guys have shortened my dream substantially.

I want to breed lots more types of course but i dont really care how long it takes. Me n my dad are doing this project mostly for fun and bonding ;)

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Originally Posted by Lord_Rahl

So many thanks guys. Think im finally gettin it. Just trying to readjust my thinking.

Ok so lets just say i purchase 2 100% het pied snakes and mate them. Basically all offspring are 100% as well but a certain percentage will be visual correct? But the only way to get 100% visual is vis x vis...

If this is correct u guys have shortened my dream substantially.

I want to breed lots more types of course but i dont really care how long it takes. Me n my dad are doing this project mostly for fun and bonding ;)

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Not quite, and that's one thing I left out of my explanation.. 100% het pied x 100% het pied CAN produce a visual. Or more than one if you're lucky enough. Then any normal appearing babies are NOT 100% het pied.. They would only be 66% possible het..

The only way to produce guaranteed 100% het pieds is if one of the parents is a visual pied.

Yeah. I went back and re-read all the info again. So with what i understand so far i think what i need to do is just purchase 2 het pied and breed them, breed first clutch cross fingers for visual and then im set for pied.

Try same with het LA and take 2 visuals (one from each recessive) and get my dreamsicle.

Lastly dance a lil jig. Done

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Ok. I have been looking and best price i can find for 100% het pied is $350. I kno this cant be the best price... I thought a while ago i saw them for 50/75 m/f... Can anyone help me out with a reputable dealer who wont hamstring u.

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Still not quite.. Breeding a visual pied to a visual lavender will give you all normal appearing babies that are all 100% double het for pied and lavender. Remember, both parents have to be carrying the genes that you want before you have any chance of producing a double recessive of those genes.

Then you'd hold back all the double het females from that pairing and one male. Grow them all up and breed the male to all the females. Then hope and pray that you hit the combo. You might get a pied. You might get a lavender. You might get super lucky and hit the combo.

It is not easy to create double recessives. That is why they cost thousands of dollars.

You might get nothing.... Many people breed pairs of proven 100% hets and get no visuals the first time. It's happened with me. It's all a game of odds. It's a gamble and there is absolutely no guarantee when only working with hets.

Not scared of the work or time needed to acquire this. When im actually doing it id say it will be easier to wrap my head around right?

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Thnx so much guys. At least now i have a place to begin.

Now looking for reputable breeders who are affordable!!

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My next one after i achieve dreamsicle will be a clown x ultramel. Only thing is when running against wizard het is the only thing i find....
Surely after 4 years there is a morph... If not maybe a compatability issue?

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I did buy a pair of 100% het lavender albinos. And the comment about "raising up an army of possible hets" is no joke: I've gotten a bit unlucky, and hatched 4.4 66% possible hets and only 1.0 visual lavender albino. The males are basically only good as pet snakes, so I sell them to friends for $30. The females are theoretically worth something, but so far only one has sold. I might have to use their visual brother to prove them out, so I can sell them as either 100% hets or true normals.

On the bright side, the visual lavender albino has turned out to be a total studmuffin, and he really digs the low-white pied female I put him with this year.

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Originally Posted by loonunit

I did buy a pair of 100% het lavender albinos. And the comment about "raising up an army of possible hets" is no joke: I've gotten a bit unlucky, and hatched 4.4 66% possible hets and only 1.0 visual lavender albino. The males are basically only good as pet snakes, so I sell them to friends for $30. The females are theoretically worth something, but so far only one has sold. I might have to use their visual brother to prove them out, so I can sell them as either 100% hets or true normals.

On the bright side, the visual lavender albino has turned out to be a total studmuffin, and he really digs the low-white pied female I put him with this year.

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Do u ship them, and if so how much would u sell a 100% het for?

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The best way to go at this breeding on a budget is...

A 100% DH Lav Albino Pied male...Breed him to a couple Normals...Keep all the females and breed the DH male back to them...You could prove some females to bet Het Lavs, some to be Het Pieds and some that are Het for Both! Of course some could be Normals too...

Thnx for the advice. Im very much wanting to do this, I just cant find any place to purchase a het that is a reasonable price with a reputable dealer or someone who wont hamstring me....

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Originally Posted by Lord_Rahl

Thnx for the advice. Im very much wanting to do this, I just cant find any place to purchase a het that is a reasonable price with a reputable dealer or someone who wont hamstring me....

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Check out Justin Kobylka Reptiles.

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Double het males are still pretty expensive. But Kobylka is totally reputable, and he has hatched his own dreamsicles. So if he says he's got a guaranteed double het for dreamsicle, he's not scamming you.

I did find an ad on kingsnake for a double-het dreamsicle male for $500. That's not THAT much more than you'd be paying for het pied female + a het lavender male... I just don't know the breeder, and can't tell you if he's the real deal or not.

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Originally Posted by coldbloodaddict

The best way to go at this breeding on a budget is...

A 100% DH Lav Albino Pied male...Breed him to a couple Normals...Keep all the females and breed the DH male back to them...You could prove some females to bet Het Lavs, some to be Het Pieds and some that are Het for Both! Of course some could be Normals too...

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This is what I'm currently doing. Putting my DBL Het for DS male to normal girls and holding back all females. I will prolly pick up a couple het pieds, het lavs, or visuals of the 2 this year to continue to speed things up. Or may just take my time and play the odds game :) I'm in no hurry :D

I just wanna take my time with it. Theres alot of learning to do and time to get all the results im looking for.

That being said, thats why im specifically looking for a het of each trait seperately. I want to be able to mix any outcome later on with my base hets i am attempting to acquire.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Rahl

That being said, thats why im specifically looking for a het of each trait seperately. I want to be able to mix any outcome later on with my base hets i am attempting to acquire.

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Pardon me for saying, but your logic doesn't make any sense to me. Why wouldn't you want a parent to DEFINITELY carry both genes (I.e. double het male and then maybe a female het of each gene)? Doing it your way, you'd be breeding only possible hets on both sides when you go for dreamcicles with the offspring.

Because eventually if i get one or the other i can breed with norms and proof them out. I dont have alot of money for the time being. Im starting with two 100% het pied. M/F group.

After this i can get my vis by mating several times. Do the same with 2 100% het lav alb. Get a vis breed with pie vis. mate male from clutch with all females from clutch get my prize.

Even with 1 of each het i can still breed with the norms i have to eventually get desired results...

I wanna do my first one the long way. Logically not sound from a direct POV but i want the time with the breeding process for other reasons.

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Ok, that makes a lot more sense. I definitely misunderstood you - thought you were talking about a male het lav and female het pied. Apologies, and best of luck! :)

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Originally Posted by Annarose15

Ok, that makes a lot more sense. I definitely misunderstood you - thought you were talking about a male het lav and female het pied. Apologies, and best of luck! :)

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Your fine. Thank you!

I am new to husbandry in snakes, but in lizards and lizard-like amphibians, I have bred many. I never really got into designers in lizards simply b/c snakes are my thing.

The reason for starting so small with just 100% Hets is b/c I am wanting to try a Quad Recessive morph one day or even a double recessive, with a pastel and a co-dominate tied in.

If i have a good base breeding stock and can prove them out, I can eventually make some great morphs, and the time spent doin it will be nice. Its a father/son thing!!!