Ball python, pink belly, but no shed??

Greetings, all - Hoping someone has seen this odd behavior in a BP before, so far I've found nothing in my internet searches... I have a female ball (proven female, had her probed over the summer), almost 3 years old, and my question is this: Has anyone had a ball who seemed insistent upon over heating itself, and if so, why would she do that and how do I make her stop? She's never behaved this way before, the temps in her enclosure are the same as always, I've not turned the heat up or down, but recently, she continually keeps digging in under her warm hide, coiling in circles until her belly is directly on her heat pad. She's shown pink belly on at least 3 separate occasions in the last several weeks, but does not go into shed - After a day or two, the pink subsides and she's just her normal off-white belly color. Only once have I pulled her out of the tank where I actually thought her body felt too warm, but all other times she's just felt normal (I handle her almost every day), and as I stated, her tank temps are unchanged. She has no apparent damaged scales, no blisters, nothing like that. She's currently on a hunger strike (last accepted food September 26), but considering her age, size and time of year, I assume it's breeding season related and since she's not losing weight or having any other apparent health issues, I'm unconcerned. I've had her since September of last year, so this is only my second breeding season with her, and she was so young and small last year, I think this is the first *real* season for her, and maybe this strange behavior is part of that and I should stop worrying so much.

I assume anyone attempting to help me answer this will want to know her setup, so here goes:
- typical 45 gallon long tank, sliding locking screen lid
- coco husk substrate
- under tank heating pad on one end, covers about a third of the underside of the tank
- heat lamp over same end (I've found the combination of the pad and the lamp has been the best for maintaining ambient temp, without the lamp, it's just too chilly) - I do not use day bulbs at all, just a simple black night bulb, and she gets normal daylight hours according to season.
- large water dish, but not large enough for her to coil into (she's pretty big, I'd need a much bigger tank!)
- hide rock on warm end, plastic plants to hide in on cool end, homemade PVC pipe climbing stick across middle
- probe thermometer on warm end, and probe thermostat to control heat - I keep both probes on *top* of her substrate, right where she coils inside her hide, so that I'm reading temperature of the ground she's actually laying on. Max temp set for 88, the thermostat shuts off when it reaches max and it'll go as low as 82 before it kicks back on.
- digital hygrometer and ambient thermometer attached about mid way up on back side of tank

I recently purchased an infrared temp gun, specifically because of my concerns over her behavior, so that I can verify that the probes are in fact accurate. They are, within a couple degrees. Her ambient air usually reads around 76, which I realize is cooler than recommended, but any time I've turned up the heat to increase that temp (which I attempted to do the first weeks I had her and was still learning), the warm end gets waaaay too warm, she overheats, and since I've been maintaining her tank at this level for over a year with zero issues, I've just not made a lot of effort to mess with it. I suspect it's more to do with the position of the hygrometer/ambient thermometer anyway, if I move it lower toward the substrate, it does read higher temp, and the infrared gun tells me all's well. Plus, at this point, if I turn up the heat, I'm concerned she's really going to burn herself!!

I've heard of gravid females doing this coiling/digging into the substrate right before they're about to lay their eggs - However it's totally 100% impossible that my girl is gravid, as she's never even met another snake. But, I was wondering if it's possible that even though she's not gravid, if she might pick up some of the instinctive breeding behaviors like that? I have no idea if that's at all feasible, but I'm baffled - She's my favorite because she was my first snake, she's beyond tame and sweet tempered, I just adore her and would be devastated if something happened to her, so I really want to make sure she's healthy and uninjured. Suggestions?

Thanks in advance for your help,
Phoenix

They can and have reproduced themselves and laid a clutch of identical offspring without seeing a male. It is rare, but can happen. It's called parthenogenesis.

I would place the temp probes under the substrate over the heat mat and adjust accordingly to get temps where u want them. Otherwise you could end up having to deal with burns.

It's likely she is doing this behavior because her ambients have dropped due to winter being upon us. Chances are she wants to be warmer and that's how she does it.

On a side note, you may want to consider buying a new tstat. A tstat that allows it to drop more than 7 degrees before coming back on is inefficient and makes for too cold of a hot spot. The most it should vary is 1-2 degrees between cycles. The snake may also be on a hunger fast because the inconsistent temps are stressing her out.

It sounds like you are doing a pretty good job. Just gotta get the temps stabilized and make sure the ambient and cold side temps aren't dropping too low :)

Hi,

A snake can move loose bedding around at any time really - and older mats can also develop "hot spots"

I'd triple check the temps under the substrate and at several places on the mat.

Also if a cold snake lies on the thermostat probe it will raise the heat - this and peeing on it are the main reasons why it is better to have the thermostat probe outside the enclosure.

Also make sure the humidity is not high enough that the bedding has become wet in places - this can also cause a pink belly before it turns into scale rot.


dr del

Thanks, really appreciate your response! I've been thinking I don't like my thermostats (I use the same kind on all my animals and they're functional, everyone is healthy, but I do feel they should have tighter control. Do you have one you'd recommend? I think the ones I have now are Reptitherm 500R, or something like that. I have to rely on the temp probes for numbers, the thermostats only do hot to cold, I can't just set the temp and go...

If I put the probes outside the enclosure, I don't see how it's possible for them to monitor the temps *in* it... ? The mat is far from old, less than 6 months - I'm pretty confident it works fine, and when I run the temp gun back and forth along it, it's consistent. It's a matter of adjustment, I think...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PhoenixFyre

Thanks, really appreciate your response! I've been thinking I don't like my thermostats (I use the same kind on all my animals and they're functional, everyone is healthy, but I do feel they should have tighter control. Do you have one you'd recommend? I think the ones I have now are Reptitherm 500R, or something like that. I have to rely on the temp probes for numbers, the thermostats only do hot to cold, I can't just set the temp and go...

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Those are rheostats (dimmer switch), not tstat. Basically it doesnt control the temp at all. You adjust the amount of power going to the heat mat with the dimmer dial. Its the same as a dimmer light switch. So if your temps get too hot or too cold it doesn't automatically adjust for them. That's what a tstat does. A tstat will either turn the heat source on or off depending on temp or automatically adjust the power output to keep it at the proper temp (depending on if its an on/off tstat or proportional).

You should look into getting helix, herpstat, or VE tstats. Even a hydrofarm would be better for now. A good tstat is gonna be your best friend.

If you put the probes on the outside of the tank, u adjust temps until they are what you want on the inside of the tank. So if you want 92 on the hot side, you may have to set the tstat to 95 to a achieve it. Make sense? You just have to be diligent about checking temps.

What about placing reptile carpet or something of that nature under the substrate, so she can't get directly on the glass?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zombie

Those are rheostats (dimmer switch), not tstat. Basically it doesnt control the temp at all. You adjust the amount of power going to the heat mat with the dimmer dial. Its the same as a dimmer light switch. So if your temps get too hot or too cold it doesn't automatically adjust for them. That's what a tstat does. A tstat will either turn the heat source on or off depending on temp or automatically adjust the power output to keep it at the proper temp (depending on if its an on/off tstat or proportional).

You should look into getting helix, herpstat, or VE tstats. Even a hydrofarm would be better for now. A good tstat is gonna be your best friend.

If you put the probes on the outside of the tank, u adjust temps until they are what you want on the inside of the tank. So if you want 92 on the hot side, you may have to set the tstat to 95 to a achieve it. Make sense? You just have to be diligent about checking temps.

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Okay, thanks for the tip. Would I attach the probes on the side of the glass or something? I check on them all several times per day, but clearly I need to make changes. :-)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PhoenixFyre

Okay, thanks for the tip. Would I attach the probes on the side of the glass or something? I check on them all several times per day, but clearly I need to make changes. :-)

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You would put the probes directly on the UTH. Also, make sure you use the little footies that came with the UTH mat on the corners of the tank. You have to make sure there is adequate air flow under the tank...

Also, you should cover 3 sides of the enclosure with foam or something like that to help insulate. You can also cover half to 3/4 of the top screen with foil or a towel to increase humidity if need be.

The hygrometer probe needs to be inside the enclosure for obvious reasons. Just attach it to the side of the glass on the inside...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zombie

Also, you should cover 3 sides of the enclosure with foam or something like that to help insulate. You can also cover half to 3/4 of the top screen with foil or a towel to increase humidity if need be.

The hygrometer probe needs to be inside the enclosure for obvious reasons. Just attach it to the side of the glass on the inside...

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Yep, thanks - I do keep a towel over 2/3 of her enclosure, the warm end is open as that's where the heat lamp is. So I took her out to night to inspect her belly really closely, as it was quite pink again earlier today, though her body didn't feel overly hot. It's difficult to get a long look at her underside, cuz ball pythons love so much to lie on their backs, not... Anyway, on closer inspection under a light, she doesn't look quite right. She's got some scales that look like the edges are turning brown, she's pale pink up most of her middle, and when I stretch her out straight, her belly scales look like they have faint verticle wrinkles in them. She's also got 2 tiny sections where it looks like a bit of scale has come off, they're like tiny dull spots, not shiny like the rest of her tummy is. At this point, I'm concerned about scale rot, I have to say. I literally *just* replaced her substrate last night, and it is quite damp in there right now, though it'll dry out in a few days. I buy the substrate in bricks, and add water to break it down, so it's always damp when it goes in, but never ever have I had any issue. I'm thinking one of these times her belly's been pink - Likely the day I mentioned before, when she actually felt too warm to the touch - She may have had a mild burn, and it's now showing the results? Also on occasion when I pick her up and my fingers push into her abdomen, a little whistle will come out of her nose - It's not consistent, she has no discharge or rattling or anything, but she's very "nosey", and has been rooting around in her substrate, I find her with her nose sprinkled with it often. But of course now that I'm concerned about her temps and scale rot, I'm going to freak out about this occasional sound too - Are there other signs of respiratory illness I can watch for, just in case? Thanks for all your advice, super appreciated.

I'm trying to post pics of her belly, but it looks like I don't have permissions to do that. :(

Sounds like her substrate is too damp. Try switching her to a cypress mulch. Or make sure you dry out the substrate before putting it in her enclosure.

I'd take it out and take a hair dryer to it or just spread it out and get it dried. The moisture on her belly will cause belly rot, and that's a whole other can of worms you don't wanna open :).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zombie

Sounds like her substrate is too damp. Try switching her to a cypress mulch. Or make sure you dry out the substrate before putting it in her enclosure.

I'd take it out and take a hair dryer to it or just spread it out and get it dried. The moisture on her belly will cause belly rot, and that's a whole other can of worms you don't wanna open :).

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Yup, that's my thought exactly. I actually think she's got a mild case of scale rot already - And when I say mild, I mean really mild, *nothing* like the pics that come up when you Google it. So last night, I opted to remove all the new substrate, cleaned out her tank, lined it with newspaper and put her hides and water dish back in. Then washed her (just with warm water though, I've seen some folks say they used soap, but since I'm not sure what kind of soap is best, I opted not to use it), and put a thin layer of non-medicated Neosporin on her. The biggest thing I've noticed thus far, is that since the newspaper is thinner than the coco husk was, then the heat comes through it better and she's able to get warm without burrowing. Not that she can burrow anyway, into newspaper, I don't think... But, I don't really put anything past a snake, sneaky little buggers. I'm going to keep her this way until she sheds again, and in the meantime, I'll keep working on balancing out her temps better, to encourage her to eat. Does her fasting impact her ability to shed? I have assumed so, since if she's not eating, she's not growing, but since her scales are mildly damaged, I'm hoping that'll prompt her body into a shed soon and we can heal her up. I believe I've caught it very early, and I still think that funny whistle she does thru her nose sometimes is substrate caught in there - It is totally intermittent and like I said, there are NO other signs of RI, so I'll watch her, but I think she's okay. She's been a really sturdy animal, even thrived during my earliest rookie days in Sept. 2011, when I was pretty clueless - I mean, I'd read a lot, of course, but I had no hands on experience, so had to learn with her. Honestly, I'm sorta proud of myself - I've even helped her out of being head shy, and she's had nothing but perfect sheds since Oct. of last year, only her very first one was rough. I keep records on all of my animals, and noted that she slowed down in feeding early this year, from January to April she only accepted food 3 times. From May thru September, she ate consistently every 10-14 days, no problem. Right up to the start of breeding season - So I think I see her pattern, and while I need to continue to be diligent, I think overall she's doing well. I've never enjoyed a pet as much as I have my snakes, many people think I'm strange for it, but I don't really care. They're soothing, fascinating, and I love them. :)

Zombie, thank you a hundred times over for all your help, I'm a major worrywort and your advice has been really valuable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PhoenixFyre

Yup, that's my thought exactly. I actually think she's got a mild case of scale rot already - And when I say mild, I mean really mild, *nothing* like the pics that come up when you Google it. So last night, I opted to remove all the new substrate, cleaned out her tank, lined it with newspaper and put her hides and water dish back in. Then washed her (just with warm water though, I've seen some folks say they used soap, but since I'm not sure what kind of soap is best, I opted not to use it), and put a thin layer of non-medicated Neosporin on her. The biggest thing I've noticed thus far, is that since the newspaper is thinner than the coco husk was, then the heat comes through it better and she's able to get warm without burrowing. Not that she can burrow anyway, into newspaper, I don't think... But, I don't really put anything past a snake, sneaky little buggers. I'm going to keep her this way until she sheds again, and in the meantime, I'll keep working on balancing out her temps better, to encourage her to eat. Does her fasting impact her ability to shed? I have assumed so, since if she's not eating, she's not growing, but since her scales are mildly damaged, I'm hoping that'll prompt her body into a shed soon and we can heal her up. I believe I've caught it very early, and I still think that funny whistle she does thru her nose sometimes is substrate caught in there - It is totally intermittent and like I said, there are NO other signs of RI, so I'll watch her, but I think she's okay. She's been a really sturdy animal, even thrived during my earliest rookie days in Sept. 2011, when I was pretty clueless - I mean, I'd read a lot, of course, but I had no hands on experience, so had to learn with her. Honestly, I'm sorta proud of myself - I've even helped her out of being head shy, and she's had nothing but perfect sheds since Oct. of last year, only her very first one was rough. I keep records on all of my animals, and noted that she slowed down in feeding early this year, from January to April she only accepted food 3 times. From May thru September, she ate consistently every 10-14 days, no problem. Right up to the start of breeding season - So I think I see her pattern, and while I need to continue to be diligent, I think overall she's doing well. I've never enjoyed a pet as much as I have my snakes, many people think I'm strange for it, but I don't really care. They're soothing, fascinating, and I love them. :)

Zombie, thank you a hundred times over for all your help, I'm a major worrywort and your advice has been really valuable.

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It's no problem, I like helping.

You shouldn't use Neosporin on her tho. It's become taboo to use because of the petroleum jelly factor. It could actually do more harm then good. I would use paper towels over newspaper if you have them, otherwise NP is fine. Just don't put anymore neo on her, she should be good :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zombie

It's no problem, I like helping.

You shouldn't use Neosporin on her tho. It's become taboo to use because of the petroleum jelly factor. It could actually do more harm then good. I would use paper towels over newspaper if you have them, otherwise NP is fine. Just don't put anymore neo on her, she should be good :)

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Hi, Zombie, just a quick update - I only treated her with the neosporin twice, and within 2 days of putting her on newsprint, she went *super* pink belly (my girl's underside always goes an alarming shade of hot pink when she's going into shed, it's crazy), so once I saw that and her blurred markings, I just left her alone. As of last night, she's in full blue, so thankfully here pretty soon she's going to be rid of her damaged scales and we'll be back in normal business. I've replaced her thermostat with one that I can set to a specific temperature, which is indeed helping level out her temps. I've never known her to turn down a meal after a shed (her last shed was 3 days before her last meal, in late September), so hopefully, she'll break her fast, too. Of course, now that I've said it out loud, she'll probably snub her rat, LOL! But since her weight is stable, if she still refuses to eat, then I'll just keep trying every couple weeks till she takes it - I really honestly think the fasting is breeding season related, she's ideal size and age, and well... she's a ball python. That's how they roll. :)