Breeding a redtail to a rainbow???

I was wondering if its even possible to do such a thing(breeding a female Red-tail to a Male Brazilian Rainbow boa) and if its happened before with positive results.

I was hoping to breed one of my future red-tails other than poprocks to a male Brazilian rainbow, but I wanted to ask to see if there was any professionals about mix breeding and hybrids. google hasn't been kind to me anyhow.

~Kaala

probably not, they are a different species inside of a different genus. your red tail is a Boa constrictor (ssp) while your rainbow boa is Epicrates cenchria cenchria.

Completely different species. I doubt they would breed. Even if they would, I have to tell you that hybrids of this nature are generally strongly discouraged in the reptile industry - to the point that you could seriously damage any reputation you might want to build. There are a few hybrids that are considered acceptable, such as carpondros (carpet x chondro), but these are MUCH more closely related - both are morelia sub-species and could and have bred in nature. To cross a boa constrictor imperitor or constrictor with an Epicrates of any species would be seriously frowned upon.

Not trying to discourage you from breeding. If I were you, I'd look at picking up a nice pair of BCIs that compliment each other well and offer you additional genetics and go from there. Or if you want to work with Rainbows, there are pearls, hypos, anerys, and a few other morphs in rainbows that are seriously stunning. You might pick up a nice pair of BRBs that are het for anery or something else cool. You'd be much better off. :gj:

Hm why would it be frowned apoun though? I mean even if it worked whats so bad about that?


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Because it is not considered ethical. They would not breed together in the wild. Many types of boas and other reptiles are threatened in the wild and it is imperative that we keep them pure and not "muddy the waters" with mixing species.

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Originally Posted by Evenstar

Because it is not considered ethical. They would not breed together in the wild. Many types of boas and other reptiles are threatened in the wild and it is imperative that we keep them pure and not "muddy the waters" with mixing species.

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What she said ^

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I understand what you are saying, but if I were to breed them together for my own personal pleasure, as pets, then no one should care. Now, if I were to start breeding to make money and then they get around and start making everything lose its origin, that's different.


0.3 Normals (Coilette, Athena and Mary Jane)
1.0 Pastel (De Sol)
1.0 Spider (Zeus)
1.0 Mojave (Prometheus)

0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Stella)
0.1 BCI (Kiyoko)
0.1 Dumerils Boa

try it. you might be the creator of a new hybrid. whats the worse that could happen? they dont cross, or the offspring are sterile. if youre wondering, then try it! the two could theoretically meet in the wild. idk if they would breed but im pretty sure their range and habitat mixes. who knows maybe theres already rainbow x rosy boa hybrids out there.

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Originally Posted by hypnotixdmp

I understand what you are saying, but if I were to breed them together for my own personal pleasure, as pets, then no one should care. Now, if I were to start breeding to make money and then they get around and start making everything lose its origin, that's different.


0.3 Normals (Coilette, Athena and Mary Jane)
1.0 Pastel (De Sol)
1.0 Spider (Zeus)
1.0 Mojave (Prometheus)

0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Stella)
0.1 BCI (Kiyoko)
0.1 Dumerils Boa

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Whether or not you are breeding for fun, or for money, unless you were to keep all the offspring, the "mutts" will still get out there in the gene pool.


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Is it weird that when Evenstar said "muddy the waters" the first thing I did was say "filthy little mud blood" like Malfoy?

That's what I'm saying, keep them ALL!!!!


0.3 Normals (Coilette, Athena and Mary Jane)
1.0 Pastel (De Sol)
1.0 Spider (Zeus)
1.0 Mojave (Prometheus)

0.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boa (Stella)
0.1 BCI (Kiyoko)
0.1 Dumerils Boa

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Originally Posted by mr~python

try it. you might be the creator of a new hybrid. whats the worse that could happen? they dont cross, or the offspring are sterile. if youre wondering, then try it! the two could theoretically meet in the wild. idk if they would breed but im pretty sure their range and habitat mixes. who knows maybe theres already rainbow x rosy boa hybrids out there.

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You do realize that rainbows and rosies live on different continents, right?

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Originally Posted by gsarchie

You do realize that rainbows and rosies live on different continents, right?

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

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I giggled...

________________________________
London, UK
1.0 bumblebee (Hachi-C)
0.1 normal (Kali)

"Just because you CAN, doesn't mean that you SHOULD..."

Biologically speaking...the definition of two separate species would imply that no offspring....thus breeding....would be possible.

Let me get this straight, it's okay to line breed ball python color mutations, and it's even considered acceptable to sell them with known physiological and neurological issues (because they look pretty) but it's unethical to breed a red tail and a rainbow?

Whatever.

Aspidites ramsayi can be cross bred to python regius, so there goes someone's genus to genus theory....

Skip, breeding ball python mutations is still breeding ball python to ball python - you're not mixing species. And for the record, I firmly believe that any snake with neurological issues or physiological defects should not be bred. I will never have a spider gene in any breeding population of balls I would ever have. And for that matter, the high instances of birth defects in balls is one big reason why I doubt I'll ever breed balls in the first place - I plan to stick with my boas and Angolan pythons one day.

I also said I DOUBTED they would breed - not that they wouldn't. There is always a possibility. But as Xfenrir said, "just because you CAN, doesn't mean you should....."

Skip, I have a LOT of respect for you and I know you can be direct, but please, you don't have to be rude. Ok? K.... ;)

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Originally Posted by mr~python

try it. you might be the creator of a new hybrid. whats the worse that could happen? they dont cross, or the offspring are sterile. if youre wondering, then try it! the two could theoretically meet in the wild. idk if they would breed but im pretty sure their range and habitat mixes. who knows maybe theres already rainbow x rosy boa hybrids out there.

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What's the worst that could happen? You could have an entire clutch that fails to thrive and all have to be put down...

In my personal opinion I don't agree that making hybrids qualifies as unethical. If it does and the reasoning for it's "unethical-ness" is not keeping good blood lines in captivity then ALL back breeding/line breeding/inbreeding/close breeding and morph breeding should also be deemed unethical.

Just trying to follow the logic, as I stated previously, I don't agree that producing hybrids is unethical or that doing so would damage your reputation.

Now after that little disclaimer, I looked into the chromosome numbers of both Boa constrictor and Epicrates cenchria both have 36 chromosomes. The number of chromosomes does not necessarily need to match up for you to get offspring, however, if you do get offspring the hybrids have a good chance of being fertile.

I don't personally know of any rainbow boa, boa constrictor hybrids.

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Originally Posted by Evenstar

Skip, breeding ball python mutations is still breeding ball python to ball python - you're not mixing species. And for the record, I firmly believe that any snake with neurological issues or physiological defects should not be bred. I will never have a spider gene in any breeding population of balls I would ever have. And for that matter, the high instances of birth defects in balls is one big reason why I doubt I'll ever breed balls in the first place - I plan to stick with my boas and Angolan pythons one day.

I also said I DOUBTED they would breed - not that they wouldn't. There is always a possibility. But as Xfenrir said, "just because you CAN, doesn't mean you should....."

Skip, I have a LOT of respect for you and I know you can be direct, but please, you don't have to be rude. Ok? K.... ;)

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Kali, the intention was not to be rude, but to point out that comparative ethics are a slippery slope.

We have epicrates to eunectes crosses, lampropeltis to elaphe crosses and python to aspidites crosses. It's nothing new and the ethical dilemma is a big jump for someone like me who believes in attempting to preserve locality animals.

However considering that this discussion is taking place on a ball python forum, I am amused that some people don't see that ethical jump between breeding regius for morphs to produce unique and aesthetically pleasing color or pattern combinations is spitting distance from doing the same thing with species outcrosses.

Claiming that it's acceptable to line breed within a species for the sole benefit of aesthetics is not morally superior to doing the same thing outside of a species.

Somewhere, a long time ago on a forum far far away, some video game playing, porno addicted, self appointed know it all decided to decree that "if it can't happen in the wild, then it shouldn't happen in the rack." You have quoted the basis of the anti-hybrid argument for the last decade. Problem is, is that most of captive herpetoculture doesn't adhere to that rule. We have people breeding ball python morphs that do not occur in the wild, we have boa outcrosses that do not occur in the wild and now we have people doing the same with countless other "pure" species.

I am not a fan of hybrids. I just get a laugh at the morph crowd in their crystal mansion tossing rocks at the hybrid mob in the waterford palace.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Kali, the intention was not to be rude, but to point out that comparative ethics are a slippery slope.

I understand, but it did come across that way. We can all keep things friendly here. This post is much better, thanks! :gj:

We have epicrates to eunectes crosses, lampropeltis to elaphe crosses and python to aspidites crosses. It's nothing new and the ethical dilemma is a big jump for someone like me who believes in attempting to preserve locality animals.

However considering that this discussion is taking place on a ball python forum, I am amused that some people don't see that ethical jump between breeding regius for morphs to produce unique and aesthetically pleasing color or pattern combinations is spitting distance from doing the same thing with species outcrosses.

I do not consider myself a member of the ball python community to be honest. I only have 2 balls - both of which will never be bred as they were rescues. A member of THIS community, BP.net, absolutely - because it is the best, most informative, helpful, and KINDEST community for herp-lovers on the internet. I do not agree with the over-breeding of balls to produce these "unique and aesthetically pleasing" color morphs that have all these issues. It sickens me. Am I a locality purest who feels hybrids should NEVER be bred? No. I do not agree with hybrids, but I'm not a purest who preaches it on the hilltops. I just simply expressed my opinion here.

Claiming that it's acceptable to line breed within a species for the sole benefit of aesthetics is not morally superior to doing the same thing outside of a species.

I have never made that claim - although I'm sure there are some folks who have, unfortunately.

Somewhere, a long time ago on a forum far far away, some video game playing, porno addicted, self appointed know it all decided to decree that "if it can't happen in the wild, then it shouldn't happen in the rack." You have quoted the basis of the anti-hybrid argument for the last decade. Problem is, is that most of captive herpetoculture doesn't adhere to that rule. We have people breeding ball python morphs that do not occur in the wild, we have boa outcrosses that do not occur in the wild and now we have people doing the same with countless other "pure" species.

I am not a fan of hybrids. I just get a laugh at the morph crowd in their crystal mansion tossing rocks at the hybrid mob in the waterford palace.

I will certainly agree with you on this point. And if this is what you meant by your last post, then I appologize for misunderstanding. One cannot convey the intonations of voice in text, which is why it's important to be careful. Thank you for the explanation! ;)

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Be careful, Kali. There is a difference between judgment and opinion. It's my opinion that condemning hybrids while approving morphs is questionable, but I do not think less of people who do either. As long as they provide the proper care for their animals, I could care less about what animals they prefer to keep. In other words, I do not judge their choice(s). To do so would be hypocritical since I am the proud owner of a beautiful super hypo false water cobra and a beautiful piebald mussurana.

There are a lot of excellent and conscientious keepers who breed/keep morphs and their are a lot of excellent and conscientious keepers who breed/keep hybrids. What I question is the moral or ethical condemnation, or better yet judgment, of advocates of one side over the other.

It all depends on where you want to place your ethical bar.
The lowest point is where a person would look at keeping any type of wild animal in a plastic or glass box unethical.

There is always a person with a different view. Who's to say one view is better over the other?

I think there is enough room in the hobby for everyone. I think it becomes unethical if and when a breeder tries to sell a cross, hybrid, mutt as something it wasn't. That's when it hurts the hobby. Even a pure bloodline can get mislabeled somewhere down the line of owners.

When you start pointing fingers and start saying things shouldn't be done, be ready for the people to start telling you their opinions. There are huge groups out there that think it's unethical to have pets in the first place.

I'm all for hybrids, mutts, morphs, pure bloodlines. I have animals sitting in plastic for my enjoyment and might even make money off of them one day. I'm in no position to judge a person If they want to cross A with B.

Is it important that we keep pure bloodlines? Yes!
Are those pure bloodlines kept in captivity on the same path as the wild animal? No! So in a way that pet, money maker, project has already been changed.

How many wild caught animals have died from the stress of shipping just so we can own a life? In a way we are all a bit guilty of being unethical.

There is room for all of us. We should all work together and make sure we always have the right to enjoy our hobby.

I appreciate what you both are saying. And I agree with you both as well. To be honest, I think I am trying to express the same views. I have been pretty sick for the last few weeks with a ruptured appendix and on some pretty good narcotic pain killers. I doubt I am expressing myself as eloquently as I might otherwise. LoL..... ;)

To be clear, what I tried to express in the first place was my opinion only. I am anything but judgmental. As you said, Skip, that would be hypocritical. Thanks to my wonderful drugs, my opinions may well have sounded as though I was being judgmental - and for that I do apologize. I don't look at morphs of any species in the same way as hybrids though - just making that distiction. A hypo false water cobra and a piebald mussarana are still pure of their species. But that's neither here nor there - your point is well recieved.

As one example (and PLEASE no one jump all over me for using this example!!!), I disagree very strongly with same-sex marriage. Yes, I am pretty conservative. However, two very close friends of ours are gay and are attempting to marry. I do not judge them or condemn them for their choices - these are their choices and only they can make them. They are still and always will be our friends. We love them no matter what.

The same is true for me in this situation. I never said that I would look down on the op if he/she attempted that breeding. But the unfortunate reality of our culture is that there are people who will. The op should be aware of that if they should go ahead with it. But the choice is theirs and it is not for me to say what they should do.

I hope all that made a bit more sense. 3skulls, very well stated!! I am bowing out of the conversation now as I think I ought to be healthier and a bit more clear-headed before attempting such serious debate and/or advice. :rolleye2:

If the offspring of any hybrid can live and thrive, then that's the best we can hope for since there will always be hybrids. And I hope that if someone does successfully cross a BRB with any sort of RTB and the offspring turn out to be sickly/cannot thrive, that people won't keep attempting it.

As human beings, we're curious people. We need to KNOW if we can do it. Granted, that's not always a good thing. I mean heck, everyone watched Jurassic Park, right?

Whoaaaa now, LOOL I leave this post for I don't know how long and I get three pages to read, while I enjoy some of the positive feedback I didn't quite mean to start an argument or rather a heated debate. However,I kinda feel sorry for the snakes that are cross-bred and successful at creating babies, its like a royal bloodline gone bad and everyone shuns upon the poor little baby(ies). I don't intend to cross-breed until I find out if its safe, not whether its going to make people hate it/me just cause it has two different breeds for parents.

As for reputation, I don't think it matters whether I have a reputation of the most successful breeder out there or the most crazy and low for breeding two beautiful snakes, not only that but if it were a successful attempt, I'm pretty sure it would be more positive than negative in the sense that I or someone else created a new hybrid (for those who care). "Just because you CAN, doesn't mean that you SHOULD...", Now, that comment didn't stop many people from mix-breeding many other animals, look at the liger for instance, I don't claim to be a genius but those are two different species, no? But yes snakes are different, I would much rather have the babies live and thrive rather than have to put them down because they were all defective. Its called Trial and Error, and as for selling the litter, I probably wouldn't unless I found people who were interested, not everyone hates hybrids, nor would I release them into the wild, that's pure idiocy, they were born in captivity and although instinct is natural I am to much like a mother to my snakes to want to throw them out into the world like that.

My choices in words and persuasive conversation are small however, lack of sleep will do that to a person, I just thought I would ask a question in hopes of getting something entirely different, if at some point I do breed two different species of snake, I now know not to throw it around like a basket of shiny gems on here.

Hope you all had a wonderful Christmas and have a even happier New Years!

~Kaala

On a side note, hybrid whales live and have been around. They still play a major part to our oceans.

I don't see this as a heated debate. I do see a passion behind the views stated here.

That's a good thing for the Herp community. One of the reasons I enjoy this forum as much as I do.

Well I am glad, I enjoyed finding more positive comments back on this, at least I'm confused as to what is a good response and what isn't. All these scientific names for snake breeds are making my brain hurt LOL.

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Originally Posted by 3skulls

I don't see this as a heated debate. I do see a passion behind the views stated here.

That's a good thing for the Herp community. One of the reasons I enjoy this forum as much as I do.

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Same here. We can debate and keep it friendly. Many reptile keepers are just very passionate. ;)

I forget what site I was on but just last month someone bred their RTB to their BRB. They copulated. They even had a picture of the pairing so they will copulate but it is yet unknown if the female has become gravid.

edit: found it! Link- http://www.hybridhaven.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=881

They are both Boa's, and the fact that they are from different Continents doesn't matter lol The fact they are both Boa's makes it possible for them to breed, they have descended from Boa Constrictors, and there are many sub-species of the Rainbow Boa's, including one from Columbia. It would be more about if you were able to get them to breed, they may not see the other sub-species as a attractive mate, but the problems don't end there. A lot of the eggs may not come to term or fertilize, at least not as many as a normal clutch. I don't Kno why all the female are getting all worked up about this, like its some unethical animal experiment. I consider the breeding of Ball Pythons for colors unethical.

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Originally Posted by 13OA Hen

They are both Boa's, and the fact that they are from different Continents doesn't matter lol The fact they are both Boa's makes it possible for them to breed, they have descended from Boa Constrictors, and there are many sub-species of the Rainbow Boa's, including one from Columbia. It would be more about if you were able to get them to breed, they may not see the other sub-species as a attractive mate, but the problems don't end there. A lot of the eggs may not come to term or fertilize, at least not as many as a normal clutch. I don't Kno why all the female are getting all worked up about this, like its some unethical animal experiment. I consider the breeding of Ball Pythons for colors unethical.

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:rolleyes:

I have no idea if they can breed to produce viable offspring. Personally I'm not a fan of the idea, but I'm also not so strong in that feeling that I would prohibit it. Part of that is because I can't reconcile within myself my acceptance of some hybrids but not others. ;)

I do find the views in the herp community interesting. In the wild, animals can and do hybridize. It is more likely to occur within the same genus. Off the top of my head without doing any searching, I know of one incidence of two different Vireo species hybridizing in the wild, and I also know wolves and coyotes can and do hybridize in the wild. In both cases, the species involved are part of the same genera. In captivity people hybridize animals, even across genera. A very well known example of hybridization in captivity are mules and hinnies, crosses between donkeys and horses (both belonging to the genus Equus). Other hoofstock species have been hybridized. People have also crossed lions and tigers, and other wild cats. Domestic dogs and coyotes have been crossed, domestic cats and several species of wild cats have been crossed (including species not belonging to the genus Felis). Different birds have been hybridized in captivity too. Some people in these different hobbies frown upon it, others don't. It is very widely accepted in the equine world (though I'm sure there are some purists who would prefer not to see mules, hinnies, and other equine hybrids).

Well, yellow anaconda/Boa constrictor hybrids exist, as well as a Colombian rainbow boa/yellow anaconda hybrid also exists. I don't see why it wouldn't work. It would just be a similar equation without the yellow anaconda part lol

As for if this is going to be done or has been done, just don't mis-market them. The last thing I want to see is carpet pythons 2: electric boogaloo where pure specimens are rare as hell. It's one thing to breed distant hybrids - you can tell those apart from pure specimens easily. But it's a different ball game trying to tell apart sub species integrades, or even closely related species. (Bredl/carpet hybrids, and blood/short tailed hybrids anyone?) Hybrids like those are hard to identify even in F1 generations.

Hybrids = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abomination_(Bible)

But hey, that's just my opinion...

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Originally Posted by Slim

Hybrids = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abomination_(Bible)

But hey, that's just my opinion...

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Yeah and opinions are like buttholes. Everybody has one and most of them stink. :P

I think if you kept them all, I'd say do it. Some ppl keep burmballs and the like that they have produced themsleves, as well as other hybrids, and if for some reason they were to ever leave your hands, make sure it were as pet only.

I'm a fan of naturally occurring hybrids/integrades. My favorite being green/yellow cross anacondas. Happens in the wild, easy to distinguish from pure stock, and look cool as hell.

I might even produce some :)

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 3

In terms of ethical behavior, to me it seems wrong if the following conditions are what you are basing your breeding on.

1. You are breeding to produce hybrids to sell.
This results in snakes that are not pure, producing all sorts of other cross overs and muddies up the general gene pool. It's easy to see people not keeping track of all the genetic details of their snakes when breeding. So when the time comes to breed them and they don't know it's a hybrid, you've got the beginnings of a gene pool pollutant.

2. If upon breeding a hybrid, it has physiological issues due to being a hybrid.
This one is a blurry line as we have the spider wobble in BPs and that is clearly a physiological issue that people don't mind and put up with. If you have done this in the past, and your hybrid had issues, public knowledge would benefit anyone possibly considering the same hybrid as they would have forewarning of possible issues. This also results in less snakes needing to be euthanized at an early age due to defects or deformities.


So far, those are the only things I can think of off the top of my head that would be problematic if you were to produce hybrids. If they can physically mate, I don't see why they wouldn't do so in the wild aside from being geographically separate.

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Originally Posted by 13OA Hen

They are both Boa's, and the fact that they are from different Continents doesn't matter lol The fact they are both Boa's makes it possible for them to breed, they have descended from Boa Constrictors, and there are many sub-species of the Rainbow Boa's, including one from Columbia. It would be more about if you were able to get them to breed, they may not see the other sub-species as a attractive mate, but the problems don't end there. A lot of the eggs may not come to term or fertilize, at least not as many as a normal clutch. I don't Kno why all the female are getting all worked up about this, like its some unethical animal experiment. I consider the breeding of Ball Pythons for colors unethical.

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Deborah already caught the lay EGGS part,

But lets clarify one more point. Rainbow boas from Brazil and boa constrictors, with the exception of boas from Mexico (North American) and the boas from Central America, also technically part of the North American continent, ARE from the same continent. The South American continent.

As already stated, boas don't lay eggs, and the 2 species mentioned are from the South American continent.


Everybody has there opinion on the hybrid topic. People will do what they do, good or bad, but IF somebody does create the hybrids, I'd hope they have enough sense and genuine love for both species to actually research where they come from, what they actually do in nature and go from there. Far to many people learn nothing more than the genetic possibilities for breeding and basic care sheet knowledge for breeding and keeping.

A lot more people should take a page from Gus Rentfro's practices. He has had boas that lived for longer than 20 years that were still capable of reproducing. He LOVES the BC species and is interested in what they do in nature. He was not into morphs or hybrids yet somehow has produced some of the most beautiful, healthy BCs out there. If you let his collection back out into the wild where they came from, they'd thrive.

Fancy colors, hybrids and whatever else is for our enjoyment and that's fine because keeping snakes as pets is also for our enjoyment as well.

We should use caution if there is something we are doing that will have negative consequences to the animal.

As humans we change things in nature many times faster than they would naturally occur, if ever.

VERY well said Gio!! :gj:

Redtails have bred with yellow anacondas, rainbows have bred with yellow anacondas, I don't see why redtails could not breed with rainbows.