Need help with hatchling ID

I'm confused by my results with my new clutch of hatchlings...
I'll include some photos. These were just taken off my phone.
I'll include what the breeding was after i get a few educated guesses. I would appreciate it.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/12/06/tameveby.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/12/06/vu8evuhe.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/12/06/vumajasa.jpg

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What was the pairing?


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They look to be normals.

Yeah should just say what the pairing is. Especially seeing as how they look like normals. No sense in making it a guessing game for normal looking ball pythons.

Agreed. If you're stumped and asking for help, it's like dropping your car off at the mechanic and saying "There's something wrong with it, I'll give you symptoms after you narrow it down."

The pairing was a silver bullet (cinny x cinny x pastel) to a normal.
This is why I'm confused

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Originally Posted by mues155

The pairing was a silver bullet (cinny x cinny x pastel) to a normal.
This is why I'm confused

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Oh that's any easy one, the silver bullet wasn't the father.

Oopsie on records or retained sperm? (assuming she was not a virgin) Either that or the silver bullet was created by crossing two of the most normal looking cinni's in cinnamon history. One of the two. :( Sorry

Maybe they'll shed out and magically change to super sweet cinni's? One can hope? :please:

Unless she retained sperm for 5 years, that's the last time she was bred. Since then she hasn't come in contact with another male even for a second.


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When they pipped their heads through i even told my boyfriend those are the ugliest cinnys ever seen. Lol
this is just my luck that something like this would happen

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That sucks adriane! I would definitely say those are normals though unless you've developed a new line of ugly cinni's lol.

Let's just go with normals and it being a phenomenon...No one wants to be known for creating a new line of ugly anything :rofl:

Seriously though, I'm sorry! :( That sucks big time. But at least they're healthy babies! :)

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

Let's just go with normals and it being a phenomenon...

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I don't want to discount the possibility, but, genetically, shouldn't a silver bullet only produce cinny's and pewters?

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Originally Posted by swansonbb

I don't want to discount the possibility, but, genetically, shouldn't a silver bullet only produce cinny's and pewters?

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Yea thats the dilemma.

She must have retained sperm. Thats a longggg time though lol.

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Originally Posted by swansonbb

I don't want to discount the possibility, but, genetically, shouldn't a silver bullet only produce cinny's and pewters?

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Hence the "Phenomenon" part :P ;)

Long retention or BP parthenogenesis.

They kinda look like the mailman.

Could you have possibly switched labels on clutches by accident? What was she bred to five years ago? Are they all females by chance?

Maybe mom is a genetically dominant normal morph. Or a Super Normal!

Sorry about your odds, but the babies are cute classics. I'm glad you documented this because now we know just how long they can retain sperm, unless its some sort of ball python immaculate conception. (I think some lizard species can self-propogate, but IIRC they're clones, not genetically diverse offspring).

Couldn't have made a mistake, this was the only clutch i was incubating.
Amazing that this happened

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Originally Posted by Chkadii

(I think some lizard species can self-propogate, but IIRC they're clones, not genetically diverse offspring).

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Snakes can do this too. It's called parthenogenesis.


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Originally Posted by satomi325

Snakes can do this too. It's called parthenogenesis.

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Which means all babies would be female, and exact copies of mom.
I'm not sure I've heard of it happening with a multi gene combo female.

I'd like to see a picture of the silver bullet sire ...

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Snakes can do this too. It's called parthenogenesis.


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Sorry about that- I missed the earlier parthenogenesis comment (tapatalk behaves strangely on my phone) and my biology classes failed me. Have there been cases of ball pythons doing it? I thought it was more reserved for situations (evolutionarily) where it was next-to-impossible to find a mate to breed with (all lizards eventually female, next individual may be miles away, etc.). I suppose sperm-retention would be the likelier scenario because while ball pythons are mostly stationary in their burrows, they seem common enough to be able to find viable mates. Still, that's an exceptional example!

Edit: just to clarify, when I said "eventually female" I meant due to the ability to clone themselves rather than mate with a male, not individuals changing gender within their lifetime. Though we could open this up to fishes...

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

I'm not sure I've heard of it happening with a multi gene combo female.
...

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But the female is a normal:confused:

But yes. I've never heard of it with a multigened animal either.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

Which means all babies would be female, and exact copies of mom.
I'm not sure I've heard of it happening with a multi gene combo female.

I'd like to see a picture of the silver bullet sire ...

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http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/12/07/equtege2.jpg

Now I'm interested in what sexing the babies will show. I'll do it after they shed.

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I agree they look like normals, I would have to say he wasn't the sire or she made copies of herself. That would relaly suck.

Was she a virgin?

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Originally Posted by Capray

Was she a virgin?

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No. The OP said she was bred 5 years ago.

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Originally Posted by SlitherinSisters

I agree they look like normals, I would have to say he wasn't the sire or she made copies of herself. That would relaly suck.

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Thanks lol it does suck.
I want expecting this to happen

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She has some 'splainin to do.

After a quick Google search, I found this...

The Artis Zoo in Amsterdam contains three adult female Burmese pythons but no males. One female was born in 1993 and has been separated from males since 1995. She has produced a single clutch every spring starting in 1997 up to 2002. Healthy embryos have been observed in 25-30% of the eggs every year. No material of the 1997-2000 clutches had been saved for later use in a genetic study. Seven embryos were isolated from eggs of the 2001 clutch after a 24 day incubation period. The results of this test showed that six out of seven microsatellite loci were monomorphic and all individuals were homozygous for the same allele. All seven young had identical fingerprints, and all the markers of the offspring were also found in their mother. So the young are genetically identical to their mother and do not show markers that suggest the involvement of a father. These observations then suggest that this female python is parthenogenetic. (Groot et al, 2003).

There is also a member here who had a Rainbow Boa litter via Parthenogenesis. The thread is called 'Rainbow Boa Miracle Litter' or something like that.

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Originally Posted by swansonbb

She has some 'splainin to do.

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Lol. Be interesting to see if they are all girls. Keep us all updated.

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Fascinating... I look forward to finding out if they're all females :cool:

if it was parthenogenisis which means they would be clones wouldn't they have the exact pattern at mom has?
they all have different patterns.
with the exception of the head and tail stripe nothing really stands out as a match.

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Not necessarily.

When they clone horses, they won't have the same markings.

The pattern can be altered by incubation, so I would say no.

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Originally Posted by mues155

if it was parthenogenisis which means they would be clones wouldn't they have the exact pattern at mom has?
they all have different patterns.
with the exception of the head and tail stripe nothing really stands out as a match.

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Nope.
They would only be identical in genetics. Think how identical twins can have different pattern of freckles or something.

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Ok, just checking.
Well i will update you all once the hatchlings are sexed

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Originally Posted by mues155

Ok, just checking.
Well i will update you all once the hatchlings are sexed

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Wow. Seriously want to knowing this is momma clones.

thats kind of interesting, I am wanting to know the sexes as well

Well the other issue is what if they are all female...still doesn't prove its parthenogenisis. still could be an amazing coinsidence, holding sperm for years then producing 3/3 females. I'm assuming short of doing a dna test there's no actual way to say for sure.

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No, it wouldn't prove anything. But it would mean that it's a possibility, however small the chances.

If they are all females, you can send sheds of hatchlings and mom to someone who is doing research on the subject. They can DNA test from that.

Statistically speaking, it's more likely you accidentally put one you your other males in with her then parthenogenesis...

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Originally Posted by coldbloodaddict

Statistically speaking, it's more likely you accidentally put one you your other males in with her then parthenogenesis...

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Besides hatchlings i don't own any other males.
She had not been in contact with any males since she was last bred

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Originally Posted by aldebono

If they are all females, you can send sheds of hatchlings and mom to someone who is doing research on the subject. They can DNA test from that.

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Does anyone know of such a person?
If they do sex female i wouldn't mind trying that out.

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Originally Posted by mues155

Does anyone know of such a person?
If they do sex female i wouldn't mind trying that out.

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I forgot who the member was, but the one the Partho Rainbow Boas did send their sheds to a herp researcher. I would find that thread and contact the OP.

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How did these sex out?