Question for those who know how to palpate

I've been practicing palpating with my large female, not expecting to feel anything, but just trying to get the hang of things since this is my first year breeding. I tried this a couple days ago and thought I could feel tiny things inside her. Now, to be honest, it could just be my imagination from being so excited. Or could it possibly be some undigested food? She had eaten maybe 6 days before I tried this, though, and had pooped since then. She's also still tail wagging when I put my male with her and she's eating anything I put in front of her (more if I'd allow it). She's also about to shed.

My main question is, when (if I'm able to at all) will I start feeling eggs if I keep palpating her? Will I feel them before the pre ovy shed if she has one? Or is it generally after that that I'd feel anything?

It is all extremely variable with each snake. If they are building follicles you will feel tiny bumps like a string of pearls with spaces between them throughout the length of the snake starting about midway and down. They will continue to get larger and when they hit around the size of a ping pong ball (approx. 44 mm if I remember right), they will will ovulate, the follicles will move down into the oviduct, become fertilized, and begin to be shelled. At this point they will feel more like water balloons than hard bumps. It may be hard to feel eggs and I wouldnt even try to palpate at this point because there is no point, it is stressfull, and you may do harm, palpating is used for guaging when a female is about to ovulate and when she should be paired. Safest bet is to just be patient and watch for ovulation unless you are experienced and know what your feeling for. Good luck to you:D

Okay, thank you so much for the info!

Any time:) you can also try using a pillowcase or nylon stockings while palpating so it slides smoother. Some people find this makes it a little easier especially if just learning.

I feel them VERY clearly in the 3-4 weeks leading up to ovulation. The follicles turn into eggs and begin shelling shortly after ovulation, so they are already HUGE---usually 40mm across---in the days right before ovulation. They feel like golf balls, or even large-ish plums inside her. They're hard to miss. I was able to count the exact number of eggs for all five of my clutches two months before they were laid, and the counts were spot-on in all cases.

And then, immediately AFTER ovulation, I can't feel them anymore. It's totally bizarre, that objects that size could suddenly be hidden. But apparently the muscles around the oviduct really protect them.

Most females don't do a reliable pre-ovy shed. My Lois does do one, and then she skips her pre-lay shed... but usually the pre-lay shed is what you set your calendar by. The pre-ovy and pre-lay sheds don't really affect what you feel for palpating very much. There are increasingly LARGE things in there right up to ovulation.... and then there's nothing, and even the visible bulge in her middle kind of disappears. You start to wonder if your female somehow faked it. But that disappearance was ovulation.

(And then you come home and find Lois is sitting on eggs a full week before you expected them, and you have to run around looking for vermiculite and tubs.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by loonunit

Most females don't do a reliable pre-ovy shed. My Lois does do one, and then she skips her pre-lay shed... but usually the pre-lay shed is what you set your calendar by. The pre-ovy and pre-lay sheds don't really affect what you feel for palpating very much. There are increasingly LARGE things in there right up to ovulation.... and then there's nothing, and even the visible bulge in her middle kind of disappears. You start to wonder if your female somehow faked it. But that disappearance was ovulation.

(And then you come home and find Lois is sitting on eggs a full week before you expected them, and you have to run around looking for vermiculite and tubs.)

---

The fact that not all females are reliable with their sheds, and I'm actually worried that I'm going to miss the ovulation as well, has me sort of panicking (which is normal for me). lol. So my plan is to set up the incubator and tubs as soon as I even suspect she may lay eggs. I'd rather have everything set up too early than after I actually find eggs. But I'm sure that once this season is done and I try again next year, it'll be easier and I'll have a better idea what to look for.

Actually, I have another question that has nothing to do with what I previously asked. If people see it, great! If not, ohh well. I just don't want to start another thread..

The first couple of times I put my male with my female, they locked within a few hours. But the last few times I put them together, the male doesn't seem to have any interest. I haven't noticed any tail wagging by the female but I also wasn't watching as closely. She's been peeing in there when I introduce the male, but I don't know if she's scenting the tub at all.. I tried putting another male's sperm plugs in the tub and on her, but nothing. Could she be rejecting him? She's still eating everything I put in front of her. Or is it the male that's just not interested? If it is the male, is there anything else I can try to get him going again? Or should I just give them a longer break (maybe instead of 4-7 day break, give them a month)?

Thanks!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ally.

The fact that not all females are reliable with their sheds, and I'm actually worried that I'm going to miss the ovulation as well, has me sort of panicking (which is normal for me). lol. So my plan is to set up the incubator and tubs as soon as I even suspect she may lay eggs. I'd rather have everything set up too early than after I actually find eggs. But I'm sure that once this season is done and I try again next year, it'll be easier and I'll have a better idea what to look for.

---

Like you said, once you see everything happen the first time it gets alot easier and you know what to look for. As far as missing a prelay shed, those girls are the exceptions, I have yet to have a girl not have a pre lay shed. Also, if you look at your girl every day its almost impossible to miss an ovy. I can tell days before mine actually ovy, then it looks like they ate a football and are going to pop. Ovies can last for days so you shouldnt miss it. In addition a female that is about to lay should be massive, sitting on the hotspot constantly in a perfect coil and will start laying inverted and contorted in the weeks leading up to laying while they are trying to position their eggs for laying and will get what some people call "puff butt" where their is a bulge near their cloaca a day or two before actually laying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Domepiece

Like you said, once you see everything happen the first time it gets alot easier and you know what to look for. As far as missing a prelay shed, those girls are the exceptions, I have yet to have a girl not have a pre lay shed. Also, if you look at your girl every day its almost impossible to miss an ovy. I can tell days before mine actually ovy, then it looks like they ate a football and are going to pop. Ovies can last for days so you shouldnt miss it. In addition a female that is about to lay should be massive, sitting on the hotspot constantly in a perfect coil and will start laying inverted and contorted in the weeks leading up to laying while they are trying to position their eggs for laying and will get what some people call "puff butt" where their is a bulge near their cloaca a day or two before actually laying.

---

That actually helps a lot, thank you so much!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ally.

Actually, I have another question that has nothing to do with what I previously asked. If people see it, great! If not, ohh well. I just don't want to start another thread..

The first couple of times I put my male with my female, they locked within a few hours. But the last few times I put them together, the male doesn't seem to have any interest. I haven't noticed any tail wagging by the female but I also wasn't watching as closely. She's been peeing in there when I introduce the male, but I don't know if she's scenting the tub at all.. I tried putting another male's sperm plugs in the tub and on her, but nothing. Could she be rejecting him? She's still eating everything I put in front of her. Or is it the male that's just not interested? If it is the male, is there anything else I can try to get him going again? Or should I just give them a longer break (maybe instead of 4-7 day break, give them a month)?

Thanks!

---

It sounds like everything is going right with them especially if the female is peeing and tail wagging and the male has already locked with her. One thing is that if you introduce them too often they will stop showing interest or the female may believe that she is good to go and has stopped trying to attract the male. I only put a male in every 2 weeks and you only need 1 good lock a month. I personally think people put their male in too often. A longer break may be in order to get them going again. 4-7 is too soon.

Yeah, give them a couple weeks off this time. It's still early in the season---once you start feeling golf balls inside your female, THEN you want to get more aggressive about frequent pairing. He should show a lot of interest then, too, because he can tell she's getting ready to ovulate.

Like Domepiece said, ovulation isn't a sudden thing. She'll get brighter and brighter and you'll start to see a bulge. And the follicles will get very obvious. The period of time when she's really hard and swollen and miserable is only a few hours long, but she'll be swelling and glowing for days before and after.

She'll also shift from cold-seaking behavior to heat-seaking around ovulation.

As long as you mark down your best guess for the ovulation, you should have a pretty good estimate for when she's going to lay. Most females are pretty good about the pre-lay sheds. And even if she fakes you out the way Lois does to me every time, you still won't be off my more than a week. Just keep the incubator warm and check on her every day or so, and it'll be okay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Domepiece

It sounds like everything is going right with them especially if the female is peeing and tail wagging and the male has already locked with her. One thing is that if you introduce them too often they will stop showing interest or the female may believe that she is good to go and has stopped trying to attract the male. I only put a male in every 2 weeks and you only need 1 good lock a month. I personally think people put their male in too often. A longer break may be in order to get them going again. 4-7 is too soon.

---

This is good to know. I thought the 3 day on, 3 day off routine most people do was throughout the season. I didn't realize that it's not as important as it is when she's closer to ovulation. Once I take him out tomorrow evening, I'll keep them separated until after Christmas, and then only introduce them once or twice a month.

Thanks again for all the information Domepiece and loonunit. It helps a lot!

Wow, how did I forget to mention the glow, lol, Thanks loonunit:D Yes as mentioned above females will go through drastic color changes getting very bright and light in the dark areas, especially around the neck. They will also go off feed a couple months to a couple weeks before ovy. I offer several times after 1st refusal and if they keep refusing 3-4 times I stop offering.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Domepiece

Wow, how did I forget to mention the glow, lol, Thanks loonunit:D Yes as mentioned above females will go through drastic color changes getting very bright and light in the dark areas, especially around the neck. They will also go off feed a couple months to a couple weeks before ovy. I offer several times after 1st refusal and if they keep refusing 3-4 times I stop offering.

---

In one of the links I've been reading, it says the colour change is pretty drastic and almost looks like a completely different snake, so I'm thinking this is something I won't be able to miss (hopefully).

I know it's really early but I have a girl that looks like a different snake. She shed about a week ago and Wow, she is super bright now. I'm hoping this is a good sign :)
Her first lock was 10-30 and has locked almost every week after, besides when her mate was is shed.

Fingers crossed for everyone :)