Rat genetics

Are there any good web sites that can tell me which rat colors are dominant co dominant or recessive?

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All colors other than black and agouti are recessive.

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afrma.org has some good information. There are a few other sites out there but I would have to look them up again.

A quick run down of some genetics for you:

Dominant
"ticked" (agouti) - A
unmarked (self) - H
Downunder - Do? (not a gene I worked with, not very familiar with it)

Co-dominant
Burmese - Bu/bu ("double Burmese" gives you sable)
Pearl - Pe/pe ("double pearl" is lethal in utero)
Rex - Re/re ("double rex" is aka "patchwork hairless" and "mock hairless")

Recessive
"unticked" (black) - a
blue - g ("d" in UK)
Russian blue - d ("rb" in UK)
mink - m
"brown" (chocolate) - b
red eye dilute (beige) - r
pink eye dilute (champagne) - p
albino - c
colorpoint - c^h (the color point gene will create Siamese and Himalayan, Siamese has two colorpoint genes while Himalayan has one colorpoint and one albino)
recessive hooded markings - h with a variety of modifiers (two "h" genes will give you hooded markings, a heterozygote will have Berkshire markings, the variety of modifiers on this locus give you a variety of other markings)
dumbo - du
hairless - cu? (another gene I have not worked with, apparently there are a number of different hairless genes, but only a couple are in the pet populations)

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afrma.org has some good information. There are a few other sites out there but I would have to look them up again.

A quick run down of some genetics for you:

Dominant
"ticked" (agouti) - A
unmarked (self) - H
Downunder - Do? (not a gene I worked with, not very familiar with it)

Co-dominant
Burmese - Bu/bu ("double Burmese" gives you sable)
Pearl - Pe/pe ("double pearl" is lethal in utero)
Rex - Re/re ("double rex" is aka "patchwork hairless" and "mock hairless")

Recessive
"unticked" (black) - a
blue - g ("d" in UK)
Russian blue - d ("rb" in UK)
mink - m
"brown" (chocolate) - b
red eye dilute (beige) - r
pink eye dilute (champagne) - p
albino - c
colorpoint - c^h (the color point gene will create Siamese and Himalayan, Siamese has two colorpoint genes while Himalayan has one colorpoint and one albino)
recessive hooded markings - h with a variety of modifiers (two "h" genes will give you hooded markings, a heterozygote will have Berkshire markings, the variety of modifiers on this locus give you a variety of other markings)
dumbo - du
hairless - cu? (another gene I have not worked with, apparently there are a number of different hairless genes, but only a couple are in the pet populations)

I believe black is recessive too?

OP:
http://www.afrma.org/rmindex.htm

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

I believe black is recessive too?

OP:
http://www.afrma.org/rmindex.htm

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Is it? My mistake.
Then Agouti is the only dominant.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

I believe black is recessive too?

OP:
http://www.afrma.org/rmindex.htm

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That is true, black is recessive.
What confuses people is the dominant allele for many loci gives black coloration by default. Doesn't mean the black is dominant, just means by default there is no other color for the "non" (i.e. "non-blue", "non-mink", "non-biege", etc) to be.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Is it? My mistake.
Then Agouti is the only dominant.

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There are actually a couple colors that are dominant (or co-dominant) besides agouti, but for the most part the majority are recessive.

Sorry for the double post above. My computer was freaking out as I was trying to post.

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Originally Posted by sorraia

There are actually a couple colors that are dominant (or co-dominant) besides agouti, but for the most part the majority are recessive.

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What else would be dominant? You only listed agouti in your original post as the only color dominant. And I'm not talking about co-doms because those are different.



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Originally Posted by satomi325

What else would be dominant? You only listed agouti in your original post as the only color dominant. And I'm not talking about co-doms because those are different. Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

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I didn't list it in my original post, but there's a gene that causes Siamese, Himalayan, and albino to have black eyes instead of red. This gene is a simple dominant, but currently not very common in the US (more common in the UK). I listed Downunder (a marking) as dominant, but it looks like I might be mistaken on that. I recalled it being dominant according to what others in the rat fancy have said, but a quick search is listing it as an allele on the H-locus.

For the OP (and anyone else interested), here's another website besides AFRMA. It is a UK site though, so some of the colors and genes may be labeled differently from North America. For example, in the UK the blue gene is denoted "d" (for "dilute") while in North America it is labeled "g" (for "gray"). http://www.ratz.co.uk/genetics.html

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Originally Posted by sorraia

I didn't list it in my original post, but there's a gene that causes Siamese, Himalayan, and albino to have black eyes instead of red. This gene is a simple dominant, but currently not very common in the US (more common in the UK). I listed Downunder (a marking) as dominant, but it looks like I might be mistaken on that. I recalled it being dominant according to what others in the rat fancy have said, but a quick search is listing it as an allele on the H-locus.
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I understand that down under was a marking, which is why I didn't mention it since the topic was about colors. I only asked about more dominants because it sounded like there are more dom color types. Either way, still sound info. Thanks for the clarification.

Snakesrkewl(Jerry) who posted above is experienced in breeding Black eyed siamese.

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And just a quick FYI regarding Burmese and Black-eyed colorpoint varieties:
The described genetics for Burmese, sable, and black-eyed colorpoint listd on AFRMA's website is incorrect. AFRMA currently insists these genes are located on the c-locus. This hypothesis was created by a couple breeders who only worked very briefly with the varieties and did not even try out all the possible combinations. Myself and several other breeders have had a couple litters proving their hypothesis incorrect. This was something I tried discussing with them to correct, but the main breeder who came up with the idea refused to even talk to me about it.

The hypothesis followed by UK breeders is the correct one, as proven by multiple litters from the UK as well as some US breeders. That hypothesis is Burmese and the black-eyed gene affecting colorpoint are located on two loci separate from the colorpoint locus. This makes it possible to have multiple varieties in one litter from two self parents, as had been observed by myself and others.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Snakesrkewl(Jerry) who posted above is experienced in breeding Black eyed siamese.

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Yeah? That's exciting for me to hear! That was one of the varieties I worked with for awhile, as well as the Burmese. Makes me miss my rats that much more.

Are there patterns that are dominant co dominant or recessive

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Originally Posted by toyota89

Are there patterns that are dominant co dominant or recessive

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What do you mean by "patterns"?

Technically, you have colors, markings, and patterns. Colors are just that, colors: black, agouti, blue, beige, Russian blue, mink, etc.

Markings are white markings: hooded,Berkshire, Irish, variegated, capped, etc.

Patterns are color patterns: colorpoint patterns, merle, I think roan and pearl might be included in that as well.

Siamese and Himalayan (colorpoint patterns) are recessive, Burmese and pearl are co-dominant, I forget what merle is, and I think roan is recessive.

If you mean markings, it depends on the marking. I originally listed the H-locus markings (the more common and widespread markings) as recessive, but I actually should have listed them as co-dominant. The basic genes are "H" (self) and "h" (hooded), but there are a variety of other modifiers and genes on that locus too (hⁱ,H^ro, H^e​, and more).

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Originally Posted by sorraia

Yeah? That's exciting for me to hear! That was one of the varieties I worked with for awhile, as well as the Burmese. Makes me miss my rats that much more.

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I've not been able to breed rats for awhile now due to living arrangements, but we(my partner) still makes black eyed Siamese.
Unfortunately we keep losing the dwarf gene but here's one of the best black eyed Siamese I produced back when
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/PICT7776.jpg

and a full sized black eyed Siamese mom
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/a...e/SDC10259.jpg

I did make a few Burmese including a Burmese dwarf, but I've lost much of the genetics I was playing with when my partner took over the rat breeding.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

I've not been able to breed rats for awhile now due to living arrangements, but we(my partner) still makes black eyed Siamese.
Unfortunately we keep losing the dwarf gene but here's one of the best black eyed Siamese I produced back when


and a full sized black eyed Siamese mom


I did make a few Burmese including a Burmese dwarf, but I've lost much of the genetics I was playing with when my partner took over the rat breeding.

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Thank you for sharing! I know what you mean about losing it. When I stopped breeding rats (due to living situation at the time, nothing financial or regulatory, just physically, emotionally, and mentally didn't have the time to devote to it), most of what I was concentrating on was Russian blue Burmese and Siamese and self chocolate while trying to pull black-eyed Siamese and mink back out (an unsuccessful litter "buried" those for me). I really liked the Siamese and was producing some gorgeous animals with nice dark points and excellent shading, and I personally just think something about the black-eyed individuals was really stunning compared to the normal pink-eyes. And I absolutely loved the Burmese.

Would you say this is a mink sorraia?

http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/a...hare/Minky.jpg

As far as your statement up top ^^ I have always gotten 100% selfs from self X self, are you saying it's possible to get something other than selfs?

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

Would you say this is a mink sorraia?

http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/a...hare/Minky.jpg

As far as your statement up top ^^ I have always gotten 100% selfs from self X self, are you saying it's possible to get something other than selfs?

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Yes, that's an American Mink. :)

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/j...n/IMG_2327.jpg
Burmese and Black Eyed Seal Point Siamese. :)

Thanks Michelle, I was pretty sure but not positive.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

Would you say this is a mink sorraia?

http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/a...hare/Minky.jpg

As far as your statement up top ^^ I have always gotten 100% selfs from self X self, are you saying it's possible to get something other than selfs?

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Yup, looks like a mink!

Self (H/H) x self (H/H) should normally always give 100% self (no markings), but I have heard of some tricky genetics (not on the h-locus) that supposedly can allow markings to pop up out of unmarked parents. I don't really know much about those, and my understanding is those genes are uncommon in the pet population. I know a certain degree of white can be seen on the toes of supposedly genetic self rats, and is fairly common, but that white shouldn't extend past the toes or onto the belly (would then make the rat Irish, Berkshire, or whatever other names people are giving them these days). Briefly I worked with some funny markings quite some time back, I would have to dig up those records to see exactly what I had and what I produced. I don't think those parents were actual genetic selfs though, as I recall them having some small white spots on their belly and white feet.

I have what I call Burmese but your saying is mink? All with color points. I tend to breed for Burmese Berkshire Dumbo Rex and some have red eyes and some have black, but generally speaking they are most as light or lighter then Jerry's. Once in a while they throw a dark one like in the Burmese picture.
Stardust she dies the last spring : ( and Cronk
http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/...1E4A19C895.jpg
Blurry darker baby
http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/...1CE8A1C52B.jpg
Darkest baby, just a headshot tho : S
http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/...1D295E316F.jpg

I have black eye Siamese from Jerry's line, via Brian, love them! Definitely preferred over the red eyes.

Sama - Burmese will have darker colorpoints, where mink will not. Many American mink (as opposed to the UK minks) will have very dark, almost black, ruby eyes too, while a seal-point Burmese will have black eyes. The rat in your first picture does appear to be Burmese.

Here are a couple pictures of my own. This is one of my Burmese:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c8...mphidia4-1.jpg

Here's a fairly typical American mink. The camera flash makes the ruby coloration in her eyes obvious.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c8...tery/Hope3.jpg

Here's a darker shade of mink. As an adult his eyes darkened so much you could only just barely see the ruby coloration.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c8...ttery/beau.jpg

This one shows young mink and Burmese side by side. From left to right you see 2 mink, a Burmese, 2 Russian blue Burmese, and a Russian blue.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c8...-darkday10.jpg

Mink is highly variable too, ranging from very brown to almost grayish, from warm to cool, and light to dark. Some of the mink I had were so dark they almost resembled chocolate. American mink tends toward more brown, while UK mink tends more toward gray. The shades of mink I most typically had were the color of Swiss Miss cocoa. As babies the Burmese could be differentiated from the mink because their eyes were black not ruby (even before their eyes opened you could see the difference through their eyelids), and had subtle points and shading the mink did not. Once they shed their baby coats and grew in their adult coats, you could see the more obvious difference in point and shading.

Here's a UK mink male I had. This photo doesn't do him justice. In person he looked much grayer than this photo shows.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c8...ry/Varick2.jpg

Here's that same UK mink with a young Burmese, cuddled up on my husband's neck:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c8...ney-varric.jpg

The Burmese can have some variation in shading too. The Burmese I have pictured above is a pretty good individual, with a lighter background color and nice dark points. The Burmese pictured below was so dark he almost resembled sable ("double Burmese"). AFRMA insisted he was a sable, but genetically he was not.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c8.../tierney-1.jpg

Here is an actual genetic sable:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c8...ranuaile-2.jpg

For fun, here's a mink Burmese I produced. The color is funny, resembles beige, but isn't quite right. As babies their color looks like a muddied version of beige, but once they shed their baby coat and the adult fur grows in, you can clearly see mink-colored points. As is typical of mink, their eyes are a dark, almost-black ruby too.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c8...007-05-06M.jpg

And finally... here's a "black-eyed Siamese" girl I produced. What's funny about her, her eyes were neither truly black, nor the normal pink of a typical Siamese. They were a dark ruby, like a mink! And in fact, she was a mink-point Siamese. I suspect the black-eyed gene doesn't actually make their eyes black, but turns them the original color instead. I test mated her to a normal pink-eyed seal-point Siamese to see if I could produce any black-eyed Siamese. Sadly she died due to birth-related complications (one of the very few times
I had that happen in the 10 years I bred rats).
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c8...P/valrhona.jpg

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Originally Posted by sorraia

And finally... here's a "black-eyed Siamese" girl I produced. What's funny about her, her eyes were neither truly black, nor the normal pink of a typical Siamese. They were a dark ruby, like a mink! And in fact, she was a mink-point Siamese. I suspect the black-eyed gene doesn't actually make their eyes black, but turns them the original color instead. I test mated her to a normal pink-eyed seal-point Siamese to see if I could produce any black-eyed Siamese. Sadly she died due to birth-related complications (one of the very few times
I had that happen in the 10 years I bred rats).
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c8...P/valrhona.jpg

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I think one theory for Be was that is prevented the eyes from being diluted. Beautiful rats, by the way! :)

Still working on my rat genetics, better with my mice. Very cool write up, thanks for the information. I need to get pictures of my recent stock, I have some pretty cool babies : ).

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Originally Posted by Michelle.C

I think one theory for Be was that is prevented the eyes from being diluted. Beautiful rats, by the way! :)

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I hadn't heard anyone mention that theory before, but if that's the case, I would agree with it based on what I saw in that beautiful little girl! It kills me to this day she didn't survive. :(

And thanks for the complement. :)

Anyone know of a good book hard copy or Ebook that has the different genetics for rats in it? Just wondering cuz this is alot of info to remember and if I can't find a book I'm gonna make a word doc with info on it for myself as long as everyone is ok with me copy and pasting things.. Sorry just had to ask new to rat breeding so new to all this.

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Originally Posted by carlson

Anyone know of a good book hard copy or Ebook that has the different genetics for rats in it? Just wondering cuz this is alot of info to remember and if I can't find a book I'm gonna make a word doc with info on it for myself as long as everyone is ok with me copy and pasting things.. Sorry just had to ask new to rat breeding so new to all this.

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This is a book I had when I first started keeping rats as pets. Though not all inclusive, it does include some good varieties and genetic information. It is a good basis to start with. Keep in mind this book is using UK standards, so while the information is still good, the names of different colors may not be the same as those used here in the US.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Proper-Car...rats+nick+mays

I don’t know if there are any other good books out there, I would have to do some searching and then would have to read it myself before I'd feel comfortable recommending anything. AFRMA does have a genetics book that has pretty good information, but not all of it is completely accurate (such as their information about Burmese and BES varieties). That book can be purchased off their website, but may not be the best place to get started.

I personally like the information NFRS (UK based) provides. They do have publications, but I’m not sure where you might be able to find older issues. They have their standardized varieties posted on their website, including genotype (again some of the names will be different from what are used in the US). Once you get a basic understanding of the genes, you can look at their standards and figure out what gene combinations make what colors. Their standards are not inclusive of all possibilities, but do include a wide variety. Here is a link to their site with some information:
http://www.nfrs.org/sitemap.html

I think one of the best ways to learn is to just get in touch with experienced people and chat. You can see from this thread there are several individuals who have some great experience, and I’m sure some will let you pick their brains quite a bit. I would be happy to help out as well.