Giant or Midget Leos?

Ok....as you know I got 2 leos one month ago(on Sat. it was). Now I'm not sure how old they were but both were the same size. Both are eating the same amount of crickets...but the normal is 3'' & the albino is 5''

So do I have a Giant Albino...or a Midget Normal!?

Just wondering! And abit concerned!

Thanks,

Don Meyer

don't the males and females differ in size? the chances of you having a midget or a giant are about as good as your burm staying under 8 feet.

Haha...good point...but I got a good explanation from a friend...here it is.

Quote:

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Hi Don
Leos like any other animal, whether or not raised with another animal can grow at different rates. You can buy two puppies, form the same litter, and have two separate growth rates going on. It depends on the eating habits and the animal itself. Doesnt mean you have dwarf or giant going on. I do find though that the albinos do tend to be a faster grower, but in the end all seem to end up the same size. Dont worry and good luck with your gang.

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Uhh, you have a baby and a juvenile, lol. They're nowhere near full grown. It usually takes 1-2 years for them to reach their maximum size.

BTW-Crickets aren't the healthiest prey insect. I have found the many available worms on the market (mealworms, waxworms, superworms, silkworms, butterworms) to be a much healthier and easier to use food source.

This is useful info comparing some food items, and this table is also somewhat useful. Grubco has a nice, concise chart. As you can see on these sites, crickets are a better choice than meal worms (and other larvae) because they're lower in fat and just as high or higher in protein and easy to digest, and there's no chance of crickets burrowing out of your herp. The true nutritional value will depend on what you use to gutload the insects, but crickets are generally nutritionally better.

All depends on where you get your crickets. Crix can carry nasty bio-loads of funky critters that can be passed on to your herps.

Also, for the love of all things good & holy, would someone mind proving with a factual account the urban legend of feeder worms/larvae actually burrowing out of the animal they're being fed to? I have talked to hundreds of breeders & keepers, from private individuals to zoological institutions & vets, and not one has been able to validate the claim that mealworms/superworms burrow through the intestines, much less the body, of an animal to which they've been fed. That one is getting really old.

K

sounds like total bs to me. i can't see a worm being strong enough to withstand the stomach acids of a reptile.

THanks guys....but David they are both the same age....

don, got a question for you... and im honestly not trying to stir anything up, so feel free to reply in pm if you'd like. but your website.. you claim to be a breeder of ball pythons and geckos, but you don't even know the sex of your leos... and you've never hatched a bp. im confused.

LMFAO......I'll give my whole collection of herps to anyone who can PROVE that mealworms "burrow" out of a lizard's stomach. Thats pure BS. Its physically IMPOSSIBLE folks. First off.....lizards CHEW their food.....they have TEETH......mealworms are not made of steel, LOL. Their food is DEAD by the time they swallow it.....don't forget that they have stomach acids as well. If mealworms ate your lizard from the inside out.....Big Foot and the Loch Ness Monster put them up to it. LOL ;)

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Originally Posted by DonMeyer

THanks guys....but David they are both the same age....

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But they're not full grown....how old are they exactly? Do you even know how big Leos get? Wait a couple of years before you decide whether your geckos are abnormally sized, ok? ;)

I sincerely hope you're not trying to breed them now.....please tell me you aren't!

Well, you can certainly prevent that by crushing the jaws before feeding. The point is that the larvae are fattier and don't present any better nutritional value than crickets, and in some cases are harder to digest because of the exoskeletons. I actually have both crickets and mealworms on hand for my geckos, but I gutload the crix for days before feeding them off and keep the mealies in grain. I don't know of an actual case of any larvae burrowing through intestine or body of a herp but many larvae are burrowing specialists, so if they're not adequately crunched or hit with digestive acids, I guess it is possible.

Its not possible. Its simply not. Crushing the jaws of a feeder insect is pointless.....unless you're feeding your lizard Stag Beetles, LOL. Crickets are made up of mostly useless chitin.....very little is actually of any nutritional value. I have raised many a lizard on a purely worm-oriented diet. None of my lizards ever had their insides eaten out nor were they unhealthy in any way shape or form. Ron Tremper, one of the nation's largest breeders of Leopard Geckos feeds his animals ONLY mealworms and other worms as treats.

I would like some hard pressed FACTS laid out before we go all willy nilly and start blurping urban legends as factual information.

What I presented as factual information was the nutritional analyses, David. The burrowing is beside the point. The point is nutritional value.

The burrowing isn't beside the point.

I did not say "larvae will burrow out", but that crickets won't. You want to tell me that's NOT a fact?

What were you tryng to convey with that "warning"? You were implying that there was a danger of that if you fed mealworms. If you really think about it, its just plain silly. Spreading false information does no good for anyone.

David, I merely referenced implications that it was possible found in other sources. Just because I haven't heard of something happening certainly doesn't mean it's not possible, and I know for a fact that cresties are lacking in jaw strength and don't crush their food particularly well. Therefore, because I don't know for a fact that it's not possible, I referenced the implication in case. Your saying it's not possible doesn't prove it to me, particularly since some larvae are perfectly capable of eating through wood, a much harder substance than gut. I DO know that crickets will not do it, so I included that information. If you have proof that it's not possible for a larvae to burrow through, by all means post it and I will retract my reference to other information suggesting that it is possible.

battle of the mods. how um, great.

Jeez......the fact that we're arguing over this disturbs me greatly. There should be no argument....it should be a mute point. *sigh*

Could you *please* tell me how a mealworm is going to eat though ANYthing if its DEAD? Unless they're zombie worms it AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

I fed my Cresteds mealworms quite frequently when they were adults.....and guess what? They lived!!! Have you ever been bitten by your geckos? Cuz I have....and a mealworm doesn't stand a chance in HELL of surviving that.

Yes, I've been bitten by a crestie and had to look to see I was being bitten. Repeatedly. There was nothing to it. I never said they wouldn't survive being fed mealworms, and I did say that I in fact have mealworms for them. The problem would obviously occur if they're not actually dead. This is so beside the point. The point was the nutritional value. Anything else is moot.

If anything else is moot, why did YOU say it in YOUR post? Sheesh.

Time for me to step in, lol. David is 100% correct on this one Marla, sorry to say. Think about this logically. Leos of all sizes have powerful little jaws. Ever notice how when they eat a mealie, they ALWAYS grab it up, then rotate it horizontally, crushing the head 100% of the time? This always happens, always. Secondly, lets say the head didn't get crushed. The mortal wounds inflicted on the body would kill it in a matter of seconds. The wounds added with the Hydochloric acid would definately kill it within a second or two. So, no air in the stomach, burning acid on open wounds, always head being crushed. It's simply impossible for a mealie to chew through their stomachs. Can't happen, wont happen.

Jeff, if you'll notice, this wasn't only referring to leos, which have more powerful jaws than, say, cresteds. But once again, the point was nutritional value.

Marla....I love you but please just admit you were wrong and move on. Stop trying to sidestep the issue....the mian focus of your post may have been nutritional value but YOU said something that was incorrect. Nothing bad about being wrong....arguing an impossibility takes away from your credibility though.

Marla, if you went ahead and read the rest of my post, you'll see that I did take into account the possiblity of the head not being crushed. You mean to tell me a crestie is so weak as to not break the meal worm at all? Quite doubtful.

okay two of you are arguing whether or not worms can live through the eating/digestive process - never was it directly stated that this was possible in Marlas post. It could be considered implied but implication isn't direct statement so thus an implication is not a statement of any sort and cannot be considered as such. Marla posted about nutritional content and also even though it does seem overwhelmingly obvious that worms could not live through such a process no scientific evidence has been stated to prove or disprove either side - thus not only was it never stated that worms could go through the digestive tract, it hasn't been proven here either way.

also if arguing the fact that "crickets cannot burrow back out of your herp" we're all agreed so there is no disagreement

Dude all I meant was that some things that seem perfectly logical do not work out the way they logically should. I think it is EXTREMELY unlikely that a worm could eat through but it could somehow some way in some situation be possible. And anything implied is what the reader takes away not what the writer writes.

but this whole thing has been exhausted so I say we agree to disagree or whatever and scrap it :)

"I think it might be helpful for everyone to remember that the purpose of a forum like this is to EXCHANGE IDEAS, not dictate what is right or wrong or good or bad. If you disagree with what someone else is suggesting, you can say so without being argumentative or completely slamming the guy (or girl)." - Smynx

I really regret not seeing this sooner, I should read more threads I suppose. And this is exactly why I have super mods also. I'm dissapointed, really. And Jeff, cut it out. I'd seriously expect mods to participate in a husbandry disscussion without it turning so sour.

Jeff, as a friend I'm 100% sure you knew that I'd be pissed when I finally found this. And the fact that you continued, pisses me off more.

Mods, great examples to set. I guess it's cool for mods to start flaming up a thread with a good husbandry disscussion going, great.

You all have access to the mod forum, I expect any further disscussion about this to be fowarded there. This thread is locked.