I'm a mouse breeding failure

I had this really great plan. I was going to get two mice and turn them into 10 mice....Easy!
Apparently, it doesn't really work like that. I started with four (I think). I usually buy feeders from the pet store. This means I have to make a stop once a week after work, spend almost $5, and then sign paperwork.

A couple of weeks ago I thought, "There has to be a better way," so I brilliantly bought extra mice and put them in a cage, thinking I'd have free food in no time. Genius!

Long story short- rodents are vile. I had a pet rat as a teenager and I don't remember him being so disgusting. The mice have been well cared for, but they have systematically taken each other out. My last hope for free snake food died this morning after a severe beating last night from her last remaining "friend".

I'm thinking making the switch to frozen/thawed is the most convenient, least expensive, best smelling, and most user friendly route to go at this point.

For my first order, should I start with a small amount? What do I want to look for in frozen rats? As far as determining quality, I mean. I read some online reviews of different sellers, but the information is so conflicting. One Guy loves it, the next says their rats are diseased.

What company have you used for an extended period with complete satisfaction?

Lol! I have heard mice are a pain in the patella to breed so I am sure you are not the only one who has failed in your mouse breeding endeavors! I have only ever ordered f/t from LLLReptile and Rodentpro. I have to say the way LLL packaged the rats was much tidier and the rats certainly appeared well cared for and were fuller too but I dont know how bulk ordering works if at all with LLL which is why rodent pro is more convenient for such needs IMO. I breed my own because I enjoy it and I know the quality of care put into my feeders. As for how big of an order to place its more cost effective to place bulk orders for up to (X) months because shipping is pretty spendy. I suppose if you order for a 6 month stock you could order a couple different sizes to keep up with the growth of your snake(s) depending on how many you have and how big they are, etc.

Rodentpro is one that I looked into. Someone on here who seems to give excellent advice said she uses them (I searched old threads first), so I checked them out. Apparently they had some problems in May of this year with diseased rats. Maybe an isolated incident?

I believe they addressed it and said that it was a disease among their mouse colonies and none of their rats tested positive for the disease. I cant remember where I read it but I believe it was a thread on here. Maybe a little more digging will be able to pull it up. I will see if I can find it.

I've bought from Rodent Pro in the past and my biggest complaint with them was sometimes my rats would be missing limbs that broke off while frozen. As for the disease problem they had, it's my understanding that it only affected their mice and they have taken care of the problem. Problems like that can spring up with any rodent breeder as large as Rodent Pro.

Given how they didn't disclose the information to any of their clients until one blew the whistle I will be trying MiceDirect with my next rat order in a week or two.

Anyone with mouse breeding experience care to comment on what went wrong here?

Is it typical for them to kill each other off?

What could have prevented it?

http://www.redtailboas.com/f75/roden...warning-62331/

This is what I read. You're both correct, it does say that only mice tested positive.
I'm not trying to spread negative feedback in an area I clearly know nothing about. I just don't want to feed my snake something that isn't healthy. Further, I don't want to support businesses that don't care for their animals properly. It might sound odd, but I believe that even animals that are bred to die should have a good life, however short it may be.

From what I've gotten here, it seems that Rodentpro is OK, and the name that keeps coming up. So, that's probably what I'll do.

If they weren't properly introduced, fighting will happen.

With my breeders, the best girls were the ones from pet smart. I have had a few fights, but the only deaths that have occurred were my own fault

I am wondering if the mice that you got were all males. Usually in pet stores the keep females in one cage and males in other to prevent breeding. If all mice were pulled from the male cage it could have been all males. If it was they were probably fighting and killed each other. Now I am not a mouse breeder and don't pretend to be one but that is my guess, a complete guess I might add.

Mice can be tricky. I'd suggest if you try again look into buying a group that were already kept together. Also a guy I know taught me a trick to get the females to not eat their litters, make a top for a cat litter box out of wood and small-gauge wire that baby mice won't escape from. When the preggo mice get big, put a water bottle on, and put them by themselves into one of these "brooding tubs" and let them raise their babies until the babies at least have fur.

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Originally Posted by MrLang

Anyone with mouse breeding experience care to comment on what went wrong here?

Is it typical for them to kill each other off?

What could have prevented it?

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In case someone wants to respond (if I get good info, I might try again), here's how this went down-

We bought three mice from the pet store, one male and two females (according to the employee). We put them in a traditional mouse/rat/rodent cage with paper towel, food (African grey pellets, cat food, and crackers), water, and a wheel. Within five minutes, they were squeezing through the bars. We transferred them into a large plastic tub. The original cage fits comfortably inside, so we took the door off and put it in there so there would be something to attach the wheel and water bottle to. Yes, there were holes, plenty of ventilation.

They were definitely doing what they were supposed to do, and often. About three days later, it was feeding day and I worked late, so I fed one of the females to my snake. A day or two later, we were in a city with a great snake store, so we bought two more females. The seller said he doesn't separate sexes, so there's a good chance they were already pregnant.

We put them in with the other two and it seemed fine for awhile. Got up one morning and they had offed one of the newer ones. I assumed it was because we had introduced new animals. So, next feeding day I fed the "new" male to the snake.

As of yesterday, I was down to an original male and female. Last night I noticed the female was lethargic and just "off" so I watched them for awhile. The male was biting on her and just being a jerk in general. Today is feeding day, so because it was so close, I fed the male to the snake. I was hoping I could save the female by getting rid of him, but she was dead this morning.

They've had their cage cleaned every single day. Always had fresh food and water. I put them outside during the day (it's still about 60* here during the day) and brought them inside in the evening.

I might be off on how many days between incident. My memory isn't stellar.

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Originally Posted by EAC Reptiles

I am wondering if the mice that you got were all males. Usually in pet stores the keep females in one cage and males in other to prevent breeding. If all mice were pulled from the male cage it could have been all males. If it was they were probably fighting and killed each other. Now I am not a mouse breeder and don't pretend to be one but that is my guess, a complete guess I might add.

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If she got all her mice from a petsmart/etc then this is probably what happened.

At the stores here, each store only keeps one gender. Although male mice are quite easily different from females ;)

And yeah, males kept together with slaughter each other

Sorry...I added male and female, not two females.

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Thank you everyone, I think what went wrong is pretty evident.
I don't want to kill 300 mice until I finally get it right, I think I'll just go to f/t :)

I can't comment on what went wrong (haven't bred feeders), but I can totally relate to caring to mice as horrid. When I was harboring a couple of females for my mojo boy's feeding strike they were the dirtiest pet I'd ever cared for. Didn't miss them after I fed 'em off!

As far as f/t suppliers go, I've used rodent pro and layne labs. I was satisfied with rodent pro's rats, but I was impressed by how clean and healthy looking the ones from LL were.

If you aren't sure if your BP will like the switch from live to f/t, Petco (and poss Petsmart?) sell frozen mice and rats from "Gourmet Rodent" which is pre-packaged and everything. They're a bit pricey but you could give it a try instead of buying a large quantity online. Call around to other local petstores, I was shocked that so many carried feeders and even frozen!

I personally second Layne Labs. Quality of the feeders has been superb and no broken limbs or tails, etc...

As someone already said, it's not normal at all for properly introduced mice to kill eachother.

60 degrees outside? Try to keep them indoors and at temps between, say, 68 and the low to mid 70s. They can slack off breeding for winter, anyway. Letting them reach about 75 degrees during the day seems to help.

Males, especially young males, will attempt to breed the does constantly . . . sometimes, even when they're already pregnant, like my last buck kept trying to do. Try not to get exited about pinks until the ladies start looking like golf balls. ;)

Dunno if this helps, but I've had crazy-good luck with mice, so here's exactly what I do:
Just use a plain old 10gal with a secure screen top. In this size of cage, use no more than 3 does to a buck -- I've actually had my very best luck with just a pair of mice in this kind of set up and there's only one doe to keep an eye on. Use aspen bedding (although alder works great, too, if you have access to it) and supply them with bathroom tissue they can tear up for bedding. Make toys out of cardboard rather than provide a wheel. Mice tend to love tp and paper towel tubes. I do partial cleans once a week and full clean outs once a week, a few days apart. When they have tiny babies, I spot clean. A properly kept cage with only does in it should have little to no smell -- it's the bucks that have an odor no matter what.

Keep water fresh (duh) and don't be shy about keeping the food bowl filled. A formulated diet is probably best, but I've been doing great with Kirkland Premium Dog Food and rolled oats. Feed what works for your mice!

For introductions, either buy all together or at least buy the does together. It really helps if they're sisters when it comes to not eating the babies. The very best thing you can do, is get your hands on sisters who have been in with their mom for a subsequent litter, because they're less likely to freak out with pinks.

If you're buying the boys and girls separately, qt the mice from eachother for at least a week (longer is always better), then introduce in a new/neutral cage. Make sure there's plenty of food and let them do their thing. The male will try to breed them, but these aren't productive matings. Not yet. That take a few days to a week or so, depending on the age of your mice.

The line of mice helps, but until you can start breeding them, you might not be able to do anything about that.

This might seem like overkill, but it works for me. They're tame and unbothered by me checking on the pinks, even right away. I haven't had an incidence of mousy cannibalism in my maternal line, which is the line I maintain and bring in new males for.

Hopefully some of that helps.
(Or Layne Labs . . . But breeding mice can be incredibly fun in its own right.)

Mice and rats have a rather complex social system. Throwing in random mice together and forcing them to live in close quarters will lead to killing/fighting

I know you already said you're not wanting to try again, but for future readers I wanted to add a little.

There were 3 major problems to it. First, as was stated before, males housed together with females present will kill each other. Males housed only with other males are generally ok. Second, introducing new mice to a group is generally a bad idea, as they will, as you saw, kill the newbies. Third, cleaning the cage every day would stress the crap out of them, especially the males. They like to smell themselves all the time, and when they don't, they stress because they think they're in a new environment, and will pee even more to make everything smell "right" again.

Anywho, hope this helps some! :)

Only thing I can volunteer up about the mice is that they are the stinkiest things EVER. We once picked up a feeder that was very clearly pregnant. My daughter wanted to keep her until she had the babies. So we did. Blech, no more mice for me. If you want to breed your own feeders, why not try rats? They can be super sweet too. I enjoy having our rats.

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I recently established a 1.2 mice colony and both girls are now nursing their first litters.

I am by no means an expert, but I did use a 10 gallon tank with sides darkened ( used to be my BP's tank til I moved him to a large tub ), aspen substrate, ample food ( used Diamond dog food which I feed my show dogs ) and water changed every 3 days. I also kept them in a small room with the temp @ constant 70. The male mice does give off a smell, but I change my substrate every 5 days so the smell isn't so bad.

If you are going to try to establish a new colony - start with 1.2 and make sure you sex the rodents yourself. Pick them up. Stay away from the nippy ones as they are more suited as feeders than breeders. Males do pull their balls up inside if nervous, but once they relax it'll come down. Girls also have nipples. It's fairly easy to sex mice or rats - you just have to get your hands on them. I found my mice from a local breeder via CL. And as always, be patient and let nature take its course.

Breeding mice is rewarding for me as I love the genetics that go behind it. The variations of colors and the rate of reproduction mice provide is indeed fascinating. But most importantly, they are a food source for my precious BPs and as a must, given proper care as well.

Don't be discouraged! :)

Breeding mice stinks! Literally. They smell worse than rats. I wouldn't do it simply because of the smell.

As for frozen rodents, I use Loxahatchee and really like them because their rodents are vacuum sealed and good quality. It may not be the best option for you because you are on the west coast and shipping may be more expensive. I've read that Big Cheese vacuum seals their rodents, so that could be another option. The reason I like vacuum sealed rodents is because they can last for up to a year without freezer burn. The bigger quantities you can buy at a time, the more you can save on shipping costs. Good luck!

I use rodent pro.

I've got 4 sisters and 1 male. Three of the girls just had their first litter, with #4 about to pop. Make sure they always have plenty of food or they will slaughter each other. They can be vicious, smelly creatures. I will be glad when I can do frozen only.

i thought about doing this... just because..

i got 3 snakes. 2 one months. but my norm.. where im at they only have 1 size. and they are $3.50 each and about 13g. and my male norm is roughly 225g.

it would imo save money in the long or switch to ordering f/t.

i just dont want the house to stink. and alot of mice be running around lol..

What about rats?

I picked up three females from the same store (assuming they're all sisters) and last night, I found one of the females with its head chewed off. There were plenty of food and the water bottle is 3/4 full.

I think maybe she was sick or already dead when they bit her. I have three males in another rack and they seem to be fine.

Any ideas?

BTW, I used to have pet rats and never had any problems.

I think a lot of what Alicia said is unnecesary work. Lol With a lot of mice, you just don't want to spend that much time every day. But if it works, it works.

I have a mouse rack. I use kiln-dried pine and feed hog feed. Mice are clean animals, unless they are sick. I think their health reflects their enviroment. You shouldn't put in or take out any mice once a colony is established. (except the feeders) Not even to let the females nurse. Tanks suck, they make the smell a lot worse. I have a 6-tub rack, and a single 10-gallon smells worse than the whole rack. I clean there tubs out sundays and wednesdays. Constantly messing with them will stress them out. 1 male per cage, I wouldn't put more than 4 females. (I use 3)

Honestly, when I first started out, I threw 3 mice together and I learned from that... I had 1 infertile in that group, but the other female has mothered (and grandmothered) over 300 mice. Not to mention the other colonies I have started.

P.S. Don't give up if the mom eats her babies, sometimes they'll do that the first few litters before they get a hang of it.

I have used RodentPro for a long time now. I live local so I pick them up instead of having them shipped. I picked up an order two weeks ago and I was very impressed. They were packed neater and were much cleaner than they were before. I think they must have cleaned up their act since all that stuff happened with them this summer. I'm going to stick with them.

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Originally Posted by Andrew21

I think a lot of what Alicia said is unnecesary work. Lol With a lot of mice, you just don't want to spend that much time every day. But if it works, it works.

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LOL Point :oops:
Numbers definitely have something to do with it . . . And I suppose I should admit that my breeders double as real pets :)

Breeding mice can be tricky, yes. it can also be a LOT of fun, smell or no.

Your best option, should you care to try again is to buy at least three females, preferably young females, which are already housed together. A dominant female can and will kill strange females and even males. I learned that the hard way. I try to get my males from a separate source. That's just me being weird. Watch them the first day or two. There will always be some squabbling, but there shouldn't be bloodshed.

Lack of water is one of the primary causes of cannibalism after stress. It is completely unnecessary to clean every day. I use rubbermaid tubs and shavings and I only clean once a week.

New groups almost always appreciate the addition of cardboard tubes and a small cardboard box. Toilet paper tubes and paper towel tubes are always kept for my mice. I use poptart boxes, soda 12 packs cut in half, cracker boxes cut in half, stuff like that. This gives the mouse being bullied a place to run while the aggressor cools off, and it gives them something to vent energy on other than each other. Usually you will loose most if not all of the first litter or two. This is normal in a young, new group. If babies disappear after the second litter, it's time to monitor the group and eliminate the culprit.

I've been successfully breeding my mice for about 2 years now. I average 18 groups of 3 or 4 to 1. I rarely have problems with cannibalism except occasionally in brand new groups or in my oldest groups if one gets sick before I feed it off. It can take a few tries before you hit on a good group, but once you get one going, adding more becomes easier because you know what to do and what to look for to indicate trouble.

Gale

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Originally Posted by digizure

What about rats?

I picked up three females from the same store (assuming they're all sisters) and last night, I found one of the females with its head chewed off. There were plenty of food and the water bottle is 3/4 full.

I think maybe she was sick or already dead when they bit her. I have three males in another rack and they seem to be fine.

Any ideas?

BTW, I used to have pet rats and never had any problems.

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"Our Pets' HEADS are fallin' off!"

After reading all of these.....I shall be clearing some space in my freezer :)