Small But Cool Clutch

So when I started to build my collection, I was going to stay away from Pieds because everyone wanted one (so much for that), but then I saw a Youtube video of Pete Khal's Ghost Pied and Pastel Ghost Pied (posted by Ralph Davis)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXKxcsFLuzI

and decided to think about it. I found a 2010 female Pied possible het Hypo (bought from Josh at Outback Reptiles) and a 2009 male Pastel Hypo possible het Pied (bought from Adam Chesla) in December of 2010. I started my first breeding season in November of 2011 and did not think that the female Pied possible het Hypo would be big enough to go, but very late in the season, she surprised me and I thought "maybe I'll get lucky and get a few eggs." She laid 3 good eggs. This week they hatched out, and she proved to be het Hypo. So enough talk, here are the pictures:

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...7/imag0039.jpg
The Lock

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...7/imag0183.jpg
The Whole Cutch

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...7/imag0192.jpg
The Whole Clutch Clean

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...7/imag0188.jpg
Female Pastel Hypo het Pied

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...7/imag0189.jpg
Female Hypo het Pied

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...7/imag0190.jpg
Male Pastel Double het Pied/Hypo

Hope you guys enjoyed

Cool! Those pastel pieds...:D
Awesome. Are you keeping any to raise and breed again?

I think I am keeping all 3. The only male was the Pastel double het Hypo/Pied. Next season (2013-2014) I could pair him with his mom (Pied het Hypo). This season, I will do the same pairing trying to get more eggs to see if the male Pastel Hypo possible het Pied is het for Pied. With only 3 samples this year, I could have just missed the odds on him. Hopefully I will have more answers next year. I would really like to find someone willing to trade a 1 for 1 to out cross and avoid inbreeding, but don't know if I can find that (since I have not established a reputation yet).

Glad you got the ghost her pied.
Congrats!

Wouldnt the female ghost het pied to the father make pastel ghost pieds?

That'd be wicked...

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Originally Posted by sookieball

Glad you got the ghost her pied.
Congrats!

Wouldnt the female ghost het pied to the father make pastel ghost pieds?

That'd be wicked...

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

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Not for sure. The father is a Pastel Hypo possibly het Pied. Of the 3 eggs laid this year, none hatched out visual Pied, so the father has yet to prove to be het Pied. The mother is het Hypo (a Pastel Hypo het Pied & a Hypo het Pied hatching out proved that). But with only 3 eggs, I could have just missed a Pied, so I'll give the dad at least 1 more chance to see if he's het for Pied this season & then decide the best combination of the snakes I get to pair up. Of the babies I hatch next year, I'll be really selective & only keep a few & sell the rest.

Congratulations! The odds gods must love you! That is a gorgeous POG papa, too.

Thanks. You know how the odds are, they were really kind on this clutch, but on a few other clutches I missed what I was hoping for (female Cinnamon Pewter X male Mojave resulted in 5 eggs and no Savannahs) and some times genetics just end up confusing you like my 3 clutches sired by what I thought was an Orangebelly, but of the 18 babies, none look exactly like him, so is there another gene involved? Maybe, but that's all part of the fun.

Here is the clutch out of shed:

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...2_clutch_9.jpg

Male Pastel Het Hypo Het Pied

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...o_het_pied.jpg

Female Hypo Het Pied

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...o_het_pied.jpg

Female Pastel Hypo Het Pied

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...o_het_pied.jpg

Congrats! Great odds!

Congrats! Those hypo babies look amazing!
Good luck with your project.

congrats! glad she proved out for you!

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Originally Posted by slashlax99

I would really like to find someone willing to trade a 1 for 1 to out cross and avoid inbreeding, but don't know if I can find that (since I have not established a reputation yet).

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What's the guarantee that the traded animal you get in is 'as advertised'?

With your 3, you know exactly what you've got - Line-breeding is fine - Do it! :gj:

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Originally Posted by alan1

What's the guarantee that the traded animal you get in is 'as advertised'?

With your 3, you know exactly what you've got - Line-breeding is fine - Do it! :gj:

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I have thought about this, and I am willing to line breed, but had hoped to avoid it if possible. If I can find a reputable person who is willing to trade, that would be great. This is also about trying to establish my name as a person of quality and integrity. To establish yourself, you sometimes have to take risks, but by finding people with good reputations, that risk can be minimized. I probably will end up line breeding the male Pastel Double het to his mother in the 2013-2014 season. If the same male and female go for me this season (2012-2013), I would really like to trade some of those babies to diversify the blood line and that would be a lower risk since I would have these three babies. I will just have to wait and see what opportunities present themselves.

Wonderful little clutch you got there! Came wait to see some ghost pieds in the future, ghosts pieds are HAWT.

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Very nice. Cool project, keep us updated on it!

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Very nice. Cool project, keep us updated on it!

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Will do. I plan on pairing the same parents in January 2013. They were paired at the beginning of this year, and the female has already gained back a her prebreeding weight, but I want to get more weight on her in hopes of getting more eggs this next season.

That's a great clutch. Hope you hit something showing pied next year. "And may the odds be ever in your favor."

Just an update. In the 2012-2013 season, I repeated this pairing and got 1.0 Pastel Hypo het Pied, 0.1 Hypo het Pied, 0.1 Pastel het Hypo het Pied, and 0.1 het Hypo het Pied. So the 2009 male Pastel Hypo possible het Pied did not prove out that season. This past season, 2013-2014, I decided to repeat the pairing one last time to give the 2009 male Pastel Hypo possible het Pied a third season, and hopefully at least a total of 10 eggs. I got 5 eggs (a total of 12 for the 3 seasons that I have paired him with this 2010 female Pied het Hypo) this season and they all hatched out about 2 weeks ago. Unfortunately, the 2009 male Pastel Hypo possible het Pied did not prove out again, as there were no visual Pieds in this clutch. However, I got some pretty good results, 2.1 Pastel Hypo het Pieds, and 1.1 Hypo het Pieds. This season, 2014-2015, I plan on pairing the original 2010 female Pied het Hypo to her 2013 Pastel Hypo het Pied son. Hopefully I will see some good results in 2015. It's been a long project, as I got the original 2010 female Pied het Hypo in December of 2010 and have been working at this project since then.

Great small clutch! Congrats!

Nice clutch, hypo piers are awesome

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Originally Posted by alan1

What's the guarantee that the traded animal you get in is 'as advertised'?

With your 3, you know exactly what you've got - Line-breeding is fine - Do it! :gj:

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Sort of new to tall this so this may be an obvious question but are there any concerns or complications with line breeding? Other species of animals tend to eventually show development complications; but are snake different? BP's specifically?

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Originally Posted by Karokash

Sort of new to tall this so this may be an obvious question but are there any concerns or complications with line breeding? Other species of animals tend to eventually show development complications; but are snake different? BP's specifically?

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Reptiles are much more resilient to inbreeding than mammals. Inbreeding for a couple of generations (1 or 2) is generally acceptable in Ball Pythons. I have read that it takes 4 to 6 generations of inbreeding for genetic problems to show up. In the case of recessive projects, it is very common for parents to be bred to children. For double recessive projects, it is almost a necessity.

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Originally Posted by Slowcountry Balls

Reptiles are much more resilient to inbreeding than mammals. Inbreeding for a couple of generations (1 or 2) is generally acceptable in Ball Pythons. I have read that it takes 4 to 6 generations of inbreeding for genetic problems to show up. In the case of recessive projects, it is very common for parents to be bred to children. For double recessive projects, it is almost a necessity.

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The more I have read, the more I can understand the necessity when attempting to prove out. It just makes sense if you don't want to add the extra work of finding provens to buy or trade for. I was just wondering if they had less of a chance for complications. As one member stated, line breeding simply enhances genetic traits, whether positive or negative. So if there aren't negative traits there to begin with, line breeding isn't going to hurt anything.