Really, is the market getting that bad?

i was on KS today and just came across a male black pastel 100% het albino for $150! I had purchased mine in march and he cost me $450, is the market getting that bad for black pastel combos? He also had a albino black pastels for $750, i know the market is based on supply and demand but it seems like, this is not helping the market at all, i might just be going crazy since i just finished my Bio 2 midterm:O

This time of year seems like it slows down more than any other time, and with elections coming up it might further slow things down.
I saw the add you speak of and shook my head at how low the prices were, but things aren't moving much and people get restless.
It's not just black pastels, it's the market is slow at the moment.

I will say I think you over-paid for your male if you paid $450, I bought one last year for $325 shipped and he's the sire of our albino black pastels we just hatched.

I saw black pastel 100% het clown females on Kingsnake for $600 :rolleye2:

I don't think it's much about supply and demand these days. I agree with you that dropping the price just because its a new year or late in the season is just bad business. If they aren't selling for the asking price it's another story. The economy is not helping. Food, utilities, and the cost of living in general are ever increasing and income is stagnant. Times are tough.

hmm i dont know

i know its a different ball game but black pastels no hets are fetching twice that here

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

I don't think it's much about supply and demand these days. I agree with you that dropping the price just because its a new year or late in the season is just bad business. If they aren't selling for the asking price it's another story. The economy is not helping. Food, utilities, and the cost of living in general are ever increasing and income is stagnant. Times are tough.

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The problem is a lot of sellers are not in it for business, so they could care less about what is good and bad for business. Then some that are in it for business don't understand business.

Then yes the economy right now has been contracting for 4 to 5 years, you can see it by looking at our GDP growth. Fewer people are actually employed. A lot of people are making a lot less than they did before, resulting in a lot of people forced into selling animals at a low price since it is a supplimental income that they need to pay to upkeep their collections. Then a lot of college kids which accounts for the majority of this kind of businesses customer growth can't find work at all or work that pays their college loans.

I've noticed this too, so would you guys say it is a bad time to invest in snakes in general?

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Originally Posted by Gloryhound

The problem is a lot of sellers are not in it for business, so they could care less about what is good and bad for business. Then some that are in it for business don't understand business.

Then yes the economy right now has been contracting for 4 to 5 years, you can see it by looking at our GDP growth. Fewer people are actually employed. A lot of people are making a lot less than they did before, resulting in a lot of people forced into selling animals at a low price since it is a supplimental income that they need to pay to upkeep their collections. Then a lot of college kids which accounts for the majority of this kind of businesses customer growth can't find work at all or work that pays their college loans.

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I agree. But I have seen numerous breeders that do this for a living drop prices by 1/2 from one year to the next, even though they sold out the previous year...and we are not talking about common morphs. It honestly makes me reluctant to do business with them.

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Originally Posted by Ridinandreptiles

I've noticed this too, so would you guys say it is a bad time to invest in snakes in general?

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It all depends on where you think the economy is going to go. If a sharp recovery is on the way and you wait till the recovery occurs your to late buying in. If you think the economy will drag along for years like it is then probably buying into snakes as a short term investment is not the way to go.

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

I agree. But I have seen numerous breeders that do this for a living drop prices by 1/2 from one year to the next, even though they sold out the previous year...and we are not talking about common morphs. It honestly makes me reluctant to do business with them.

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I see a lot of it has to do with the fact that they are line breeding those morphs today right along with other breeders. By the time a morph drops to a couple thousand dollars in cost it is being line bred to every female 10 or 15 breeders have in their collection. That definately drops the price a lot quicker than the days when a lot of breeders didn't have 100 females up and ready to breed in a given year.

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Originally Posted by Gloryhound

I see a lot of it has to do with the fact that they are line breeding those morphs today right along with other breeders. By the time a morph drops to a couple thousand dollars in cost it is being line bred to every female 10 or 15 breeders have in their collection. That definately drops the price a lot quicker than the days when a lot of breeders didn't have 100 females up and ready to breed in a given year.

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Very good point about having a lot of females ready to breed at any given time, I plan on breeding for some black pastel albinos are one of my first 2 goals, and if the price to sell them is $150 its fine by me, seeing how this is a hobby for me, but its just sad knowing how bad the economy is effecting the Bp market/the breeders who solely rely on the market for income. I understand has bp have become one of the most know reptiles/probably the most common reptile now, and everyone is breeding them the market has to drop as their are more and more out there of certain morphs(pastels)

I wouldnt base market price on what one individual is selling a particular animal for especially on KS

Pyramid scheme.

Accept it. Work with it.

BPs are the corn snakes and leopard geckos of the future.

Frankly I don't care, I have my animals and enjoy working with them, and have breeding projects for the sake of personal enrichment. The current state of the market could have easily been foreseen. The future state of the market should be pretty easy to predict as well.

In a hobby where the collectible "items" are easily reproduced, what do you THINK is going to happen? The only thing that stabilizes prices for a short period of time is growth in terms of number of participants.

- - - Updated - - -

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Originally Posted by Ridinandreptiles

I've noticed this too, so would you guys say it is a bad time to invest in snakes in general?

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This is a great time to invest in certain species, but success only comes with hard work.

I think that one of the best investments someone can make right now is with boelens pythons. Hard work, experience, and knowledge to unlock the ability to breed them in captivity will bring someone some serious dollars in the not too far off future. However, there are always risks.

It's never a good time to invest in an over-saturated market for a particular species, and I think that ball pythons are approaching that point pretty fast.

Bp's are deff becoming to saturated for the reptile community. I love bps dont get me wrong, i have bp goals that i will be working for, and once i have some of those goals reached i plan to start my two other projects/goals, carpets and GTP. I would love to start my carpet projects right now but i do not have the space to get a breeding project going since adult carpets need cages, same with GTP's.
I really wish the market for reptiles would go back to 5-10 years ago, when you can go to a reptile show and see a lot more diversity. White plains show is amazing, but i really wish there was more diversity, i find myself talking with breeders of carpets/ bearded dragons more than breeders of ball pythons. Maybe because it seems like very ball python table has a lot of the same morphs. which is great if your looking for that certain morph, but if your looking for something different its harder to find.

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Originally Posted by Gloryhound

The problem is a lot of sellers are not in it for business, so they could care less about what is good and bad for business. Then some that are in it for business don't understand business.

Then yes the economy right now has been contracting for 4 to 5 years, you can see it by looking at our GDP growth. Fewer people are actually employed. A lot of people are making a lot less than they did before, resulting in a lot of people forced into selling animals at a low price since it is a supplimental income that they need to pay to upkeep their collections. Then a lot of college kids which accounts for the majority of this kind of businesses customer growth can't find work at all or work that pays their college loans.

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

I agree. But I have seen numerous breeders that do this for a living drop prices by 1/2 from one year to the next, even though they sold out the previous year...and we are not talking about common morphs. It honestly makes me reluctant to do business with them.

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Originally Posted by Gloryhound

It all depends on where you think the economy is going to go. If a sharp recovery is on the way and you wait till the recovery occurs your to late buying in. If you think the economy will drag along for years like it is then probably buying into snakes as a short term investment is not the way to go.



I see a lot of it has to do with the fact that they are line breeding those morphs today right along with other breeders. By the time a morph drops to a couple thousand dollars in cost it is being line bred to every female 10 or 15 breeders have in their collection. That definately drops the price a lot quicker than the days when a lot of breeders didn't have 100 females up and ready to breed in a given year.

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Originally Posted by iCandiBallPythons

I wouldnt base market price on what one individual is selling a particular animal for especially on KS

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This is all so true. I will say though that it is also do to supply and demand. Many people are mass producing morphs. We do this to produce the animals we like and want, but we also look forward to producing stuff to help recoup investments on morphs and money put into their maintenance. It really hurts to see a morph drop its value in half, from what you paid, the season before you can produce it. It's dumb to drop prices so much and so fast.

If you can't buy an "underpriced" snake and flip it for what YOU think is a fair market value.. is it really worth that price?

And if someone can, why aren't they?

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

If you can't buy an "underpriced" snake and flip it for what YOU think is a fair market value.. is it really worth that price?

And if someone can, why aren't they?

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Exactly my thoughts! If you think it's worth so much more, then buy it and flip it! Easy Money!

And I will also add that it is a serious risk to base your livelihood on a hobby business. Hobbies are the first thing that get dropped and sold off when times get tough. If i could sell off a toy, car, motorcycle, reptiles etc. to "feed the family" when needed, so be it! I think these situations rarely have anything to do with business ethics. This is where the unique market of animal breeding gets sticky. Mr. Joe Blow home breeder selling his goods right beside the biggest names in the game.

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

If you can't buy an "underpriced" snake and flip it for what YOU think is a fair market value.. is it really worth that price?

And if someone can, why aren't they?

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Some people breed for quality and only want their customers to get good quality animals. Not everyone believes in flipping. I primarily sell only animals I have made. Occasionally I do get animals in a trade that I only wanted one or two animals included in the trade. When this happens I feel I need to keep those unwanted animals long enough to know they are 100% and I am willing to put my name on the animal. Also I occasionally sell breeders that I no longer need, again those animals have been in my collection long enough that I will put my name on them. I also don't believe in selling other peoples Hets or Possible Hets until I have proven it regardless of the paperwork that comes with it!

Why would I want to buy someone elses garbage to sell it to my customers? That just does not make good business sense.

You have to keep in mind that those people who are listing their ball pythons so low in price are NOT BUSINESSMEN!! They are joe blow and janet blow who have ball pythons to sell and they are sick of waiting for a buyer who is willing to pay their asking price. They might be hurting for money, so they are dropping their price because to them, $150 would help them pay their rent.

The only way it would hurt the market OVERALL is if all of us saw that and said "Oh crap they are going for $150 now. I guess my price needs to be that low!" Get out of here! You don't need to drop your price to their level. That's what hurts the market! If we all ignore that lowball price, then eventually that breeder will sell out of his stock. When someone comes to you and says "But I saw one on KS for $150," you need to explain to them that this price is not really the going price!

Colin Weaver of ECRB has some awesome articles on this subject. Please take some time and read them. They helped me so much. Well worth the time if you are considering getting into reptile breeding.

http://ballpythonbreeder.com/2009/04...price-animals/

http://ballpythonbreeder.com/category/all-posts/

Seems like there was a huge influx in "fast cash hobbyist" that entered the market over the past 5 years and we get to see the demise of them with all kinds of ads selling their snakes at a ridiculously low price.

People have been talking for years about the BP market crashing. However, more and more people are getting into the market. The corn snake market crashed because the animals produce lots of babies (20 - 30 per clutch) and can be bred twice per year. BPs lay typically 6 - 8 eggs and can be bred once per year. It is a different type market. I agree with Mike Wilbanks (look at around minute six and above): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYrHOBB5zoY

"Ridiculously low prices" is a relative term. For example, you breed a pair of het pieds. You get 4 "normal possible hets" and 2 visual pieds. Let's say the market says your possible hets are worth $50 and the market says the visuals are worth $1000. When a majority of the clutch is worth $200 ($50 each), then even getting 1/2 market price, a quick $500 each for the other 2 sounds pretty good to a home breeder hobbiest! No laws against it!

The market value of a morph should also vary depending on reliability. Buying off some nobody on KS Classifieds SHOULD be cheaper than buying off an established breeder, because with the breeder you are (presumably) paying for quality and reliability, and the established breeder (hopefully) will provide some amount of guarantee for the ancestry, quality, and health of the snake in question, things which all may be lacking in the "Joe Blow on KS" transaction.

There's also to some degree an issue of accessibility. Only established ball python hobbyists are likely to frequent online classifieds, whereas established breeders with mass-market websites are probably also frequented by intermediate and beginning hobbyists, and thus can charge more simply by virtue of being more accessible. It's the same reason Petsmart can charge $80 for a normal - sure, an identical or better quality normal could be had at a reptile show for $25 dollars, but your average Petsmart customer does not know that, and even if they did probably couldn't be bothered to seek out their local show and wait however many months until it occurs. You pay for convenience and accessibility.

Bottom line, basing market value on the cheapest price you can find is not a good idea. Market value varies a lot not only depending on what product but what market, and the "pet store" market is distinct from the "breeder" market is distinct from the "dude on KS" market.

If only everyone went by this thought process. They don't. As soon as prices get slashed in half, everyone drops their prices. Just look back over the past year. Most morphs are dropping prices by half or more each year. Lavs went from 3-4.5k down to 1.2-2k this year and they are recessive, go figure. Pewters are now selling for about 300. The problem is too many are being MASS produced along with a weak economy and too many people out for a quick buck. They don't care that other people are trying to support their hobby.

Does anybody feel that the auctions sites/pages contribute to a lowering of the market value? Seems to me most people go there to dump an animal so others go to those sites looking for a deal. Maybe it's just me.

I have always felt that way about the auctions. It seemed at first it was mainstream stuff that can be tough to sell on auctions. Now people are willing to put up more mid level and even high end stuff and I think it drops the value on it.
The way things seem now is that too many people breed to breed and dont care about the quality of animal they produce. You can see that by some of the stuff coming up for sale these days. Pastels that start out brown...never mind brown out as they age and just poor examples of morphs in general. I do this as a hobby but still consider it a business. I enjoy doing it. However I take pride in the animals I produce and also take pride in trying to provide the best customer service I possibly can. I always keep in contact with customers and am available after the sale. You have to wonder if these people that are just pumping out snakes and selling them for rock bottom prices care about those same things. You get what you pay for and unfortunately alot of people dont realize that until they have a problem on their hands. Sometimes "Joe Blow on KS" will provide you with the best animals and service you could ask for simply because they are a smaller breeder with the customer in mind.

I can't tell you how happy I am to have seen this thread. (I know I haven't been posting on here much lately, real life has sort of gotten a hold of me and swung me around like a top). With that being said, I have been advertising my one and only clutch for the past few months. Let me give you a little background on this particular clutch. The Dad (Vanilla) came from Gulf Coast Reptiles who we all know is "The Vanilla Producer"...LOL. At any rate, after I had him for a while and realized just how special he was, I started looking for a female worthy of him. This was four years ago when Vanillas were a lot harder to come by. It took me quite a long time to find just the right female and I did. She came from a normal CH mother and a Super Vanilla Dad. I loved her reduced pattern and coloring. I grew these two slowly and they paired up last season and I was happy to find four eggs.
Fast forward to April and the night they started pipping. I literally looked like :O when I saw the first one's head...A SUPER! Wow, the odds were with me. The next one looked like a Vanilla but I wasn't too sure at that point. They sat in their little eggs peeking at me until the next day and I couldn't wait to see what the rest of them looked like. The next morning I leaped out of bed like a 6 year old on Christmas morning and hurried to the incubator. There was another little head peeking out at me and it was obviously a normal, which made #2 a Vanilla for sure. #4 was being sullen and did not want to come out. For two days they remained like this and it was driving me crazy!!!
The next day they were all out of their eggs and crawling around the tub. My husband found me dumbstruck and speechless staring into the tub about 20 minutes after I went to check on them. All four had extremely aberrant patterns and two were Supers!
I contacted the man that I had bought the female from and wanted to see if he still had the Mother of my girl and would he be interested in selling her. Unfortunately he had already sold her but from the one picture I saw of her, it was clear to me that the aberrancies came from her.
I plan on repeating this breeding to assure the genetics but this long story comes down to this one point...

I originally had a price that I was going to put on them and then someone advertised a male on KS waaaay below that price so I just sat back and waited a bit. Sure enough, a month or so later, GCR had some Supers advertised for 1250 shipped. I thought that was a fair price and advertised mine. Now GCR has dropped their price to 1000 and I'm not willing to go that low. Bear in mind, I MAY (may being the operative word here) have something special and I MAY not. I still think that whether or not this is genetic, they are both FINE looking Supers and I'm not dropping my price.

Of course I may still have them this time next year too.........Just my two cents.

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Originally Posted by Ridinandreptiles

I've noticed this too, so would you guys say it is a bad time to invest in snakes in general?

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Low prices is the best time to invest. you have 2 - 3 years to get females up to size and if that seems like a time frame you expect it might be the right time. That said, (This is purely my opinion) the market is saturated with morphs and breeders and you may see a bottoming out from over production or demand shifting away from what you choose to breed. I have heard enough complaints about the Tinley show having ball pythons on almost every table.

Ball Pythons are a very BAD investment. IMO. If you come into the hobby to make what you want for yourself, then by all means do it. If you are planning to enter the hobby to make cash..... run, run with the wind in the opposite direction. Seriously, unless you are investing hundreds of thousands of dollars, you are not going to make a significant return on your investment. Every year or even every 6 months prices get dropped. Every year most morphs are cut in half and some even more. There are too many breeders in the market and it's getting saturated.

Ball Pythons really are the next corn snake.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Ball Pythons are a very BAD investment. IMO. If you come into the hobby to make what you want for yourself, then by all means do it. If you are planning to enter the hobby to make cash..... run, run with the wind in the opposite direction. Seriously, unless you are investing hundreds of thousands of dollars, you are not going to make a significant return on your investment. Every year or even every 6 months prices get dropped. Every year most morphs are cut in half and some even more. There are too many breeders in the market and it's getting saturated.

Ball Pythons really are the next corn snake.

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I agree. You can't come into this hobby thinking that you'll make a profit. Sure, there are breeders that do it full time for a living, but for most of us who have day jobs, it's a money losing hobby. That's what hobbies are though. We spend money on it for our enjoyment, not necessarily for a profit. Breeding and selling just helps offset the cost of maintaining the hobby. Morph prices drop so quickly too. Look at bumblebees and lemon blasts. They're beautiful 2-gene combos, but by next year you'll see males going for $200 and females for $300, if not lower.

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Originally Posted by collrak

I agree. You can't come into this hobby thinking that you'll make a profit. Sure, there are breeders that do it full time for a living, but for most of us who have day jobs, it's a money losing hobby. That's what hobbies are though. We spend money on it for our enjoyment, not necessarily for a profit. Breeding and selling just helps offset the cost of maintaining the hobby. Morph prices drop so quickly too. Look at bumblebees and lemon blasts. They're beautiful 2-gene combos, but by next year you'll see males going for $200 and females for $300, if not lower.

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Breaking een in 2-5 years is realistic.... But hog nose for the win!!(;

The thig is is even though prices are dropping any they will be the next corn snake a person can still make their money back if they are passionate about te hobby. Hell, if pewters drop to 50 and you paid 400 in 2-3 years you should have 100% of your money. So I don't think we should be shy about spending for a hobby. I think people making money days are over unless you have millions of lil snakies

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Originally Posted by Ridinandreptiles

The thig is is even though prices are dropping any they will be the next corn snake a person can still make their money back if they are passionate about te hobby. Hell, if pewters drop to 50 and you paid 400 in 2-3 years you should have 100% of your money. So I don't think we should be shy about spending for a hobby. I think people making money days are over unless you have millions of lil snakies

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You still have to factor in the upkeep of said snake. If you breed your own rodents, bedding and food adds up. You cant get into this hobby with the intent of making money. It just isn't going to happen unless you are working with 4-5 gene combos or new morphs.

I don't think it's going to stay this way. Rumor has it, from another breeder who has seen some of these, that there is at least one breeder in particular who has a LOT of new morphs that have yet to be released. Along with a couple other breeders who also have unreleased morphs. I'm hearing that there are even some new genes. Actual co-doms/doms and recessive morphs.

I believe it's only a matter of time before things get out and the market picks back up again.

Bad for breeders; good for collectors. :-)

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

You still have to factor in the upkeep of said snake. If you breed your own rodents, bedding and food adds up. You cant get into this hobby with the intent of making money. It just isn't going to happen unless you are working with 4-5 gene combos or new morphs.

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I did not invest hundred of thousands, I do not own 4 or 5 genes animals. My collection started very modestly with a pair of het pieds, a spider, a pastel, a black pastel and a normal.

The first 2 years I was in the hole, broke on my third year, made my first profit on year 4 and it has doubled every year.

I don't make hundreds of thousands but I make a very nice supplemental income plus re-invested $5000 in a few animals this year.

So yes a small breeders can make money if they have a plan, of course breeding a pastel or a mojave to 20 normals is not going to make you money.

Now what kind of money and how fast will one make will depends on their plan and initial investment, not everyone wants to be a professional breeder, some people want to break even and have a hobby that pays for itself, some want a little extra incomes and some want to turn this as a full time job.

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Originally Posted by sharkrocket

You have to keep in mind that those people who are listing their ball pythons so low in price are NOT BUSINESSMEN!! They are joe blow and janet blow who have ball pythons to sell and they are sick of waiting for a buyer who is willing to pay their asking price. They might be hurting for money, so they are dropping their price because to them, $150 would help them pay their rent.

The only way it would hurt the market OVERALL is if all of us saw that and said "Oh crap they are going for $150 now. I guess my price needs to be that low!" Get out of here! You don't need to drop your price to their level. That's what hurts the market! If we all ignore that lowball price, then eventually that breeder will sell out of his stock. When someone comes to you and says "But I saw one on KS for $150," you need to explain to them that this price is not really the going price!

Colin Weaver of ECRB has some awesome articles on this subject. Please take some time and read them. They helped me so much. Well worth the time if you are considering getting into reptile breeding.

http://ballpythonbreeder.com/2009/04...price-animals/

http://ballpythonbreeder.com/category/all-posts/

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^ SPOT ON [in my opinion] !! its these people breeding out of their basements and then sticking their animals up for sale for WAY less than everyone else to try and make a quick sale for quick cash.

Upkeep per snake is what? Maybe 120 in rats each year (52 weeks times $2 a rat plus some change) plus some amount of electricity, which coukd be either negligible or significant depending on your set up, plus any vet visits or other one time expenses.

Lets call It $200 a snake.

So if you get six babies per female, and keep one male per four females, that means 5 snakes cost you $1000 a year and produces 24 babies. Meaning if you can sell them for a bit over $40 each on average you break even on regular expenses.

I may be drastically underestimating upkeep, but I feel like this generally indicates keeping and breeding ball pythons is a hobby that roughly pays for itself IF you can move all the babies and possess a morph male.

Of course paying for itself is not the same as making money in the least, but I'm more than happy for my hobby to be revenue neutral.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

I did not invest hundred of thousands, I do not own 4 or 5 genes animals. My collection started very modestly with a pair of het pieds, a spider, a pastel, a black pastel and a normal.

The first 2 years I was in the hole, broke on my third year, made my first profit on year 4 and it has doubled every year.

I don't make hundreds of thousands but I make a very nice supplemental income plus re-invested $5000 in a few animals this year.

So yes a small breeders can make money if they have a plan, of course breeding a pastel or a mojave to 20 normals is not going to make you money.

Now what kind of money and how fast will one make will depends on their plan and initial investment, not everyone wants to be a professional breeder, some people want to break even and have a hobby that pays for itself, some want a little extra incomes and some want to turn this as a full time job.

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Over how many years and when did you start? Not to mention that it was a lot different when you started up. Imagine you just now starting up. Do you think it would end up being the same way now? I doubt it. The economy plus the prices are so drastically different now days. Like comparing apples to oranges. Not to mention Deb, you also have some stuff that you proved out yourself don't you? That helps out your collection a lot. :D

Prices are not dropping in half for most morphs every year and even if they did, there is still money to be made. Suppose you buy a female morph for $2000. The next year, prices drop to 50% and you pick up a male for $1000. The third year, you breed and produce six babies that you sell for $500 each (notice the drop of 50% each year). You have recouped your initial investment and next year if you get a clutch of six babies and the price drops to $250, then you profit $1,500. The upkeep is not that expensive. I breed my own rodents, so that helps keep cost down. Even if you figure in the cost of upkeep of the three breeders, you will still make a profit after the third year.

Now, if you keep investing in your collection you can do exactly what Deborah did. Get to a point where you are making a good profit and re-investing in your collection. You do have to be smart about it and pick some good genes and quality snakes. You also have to provide great customer service, work at establishing a solid reputation and making good business decisions.

Thanks everyone for the the responses. I did not expect this to turn into such a long thread, i do believe if you are just starting to get into the "ball game" for money you will become burnt out. I also do believe that if you just get into the game now you can become in the profit side of this hobby. it just may take 3+ years as Deb said.
I am in the ball game as a hobby, but when purchasing my snakes i did take the business side also. I looked at the animals, the price, the quality, and what type of project it could fit into. I plan to breed and hold back anything i do like or i feel that will work into my future projects, but also i want to have the quality in the animals i do not plan on holding back so that they can be offered for sale, and not just be another pastel for sale that is starting to brown at 400 grams, i want the best or closest to best example of the morph. And if i just break even over the course of 20+ years i will be happy, since it is my hobby.

Figure this you buy a male phantom for 1000. Next year they are 300. You produced two. 600. Next year they are 50 you breed to a mojave and sell the one baby you produce for 400. EVEN!!! And those are crappy odds and not real prices. People say they're the next corn snake but the last time I checked people can still have a self sustaining hobby with corns. I have balls and will invest in ball no matter how crappy prices get. Same with hog nose those will e the next ball python (ithink) and I'll stick with balls and that ghi I'm gonna buy for 5k, I can make $ selling the babies at 50 if I do it long enough. PLUS there is still new morphs like the battery acid and ghi tht have massive potential. If you are passionate and do not lose hope in balls they can be a good self sustaining hobby forever, just like corns were if you investe in those a few decades ago

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Originally Posted by Don

Prices are not dropping in half for most morphs every year and even if they did, there is still money to be made. Suppose you buy a female morph for $2000. The next year, prices drop to 50% and you pick up a male for $1000. The third year, you breed and produce six babies that you sell for $500 each (notice the drop of 50% each year). You have recouped your initial investment and next year if you get a clutch of six babies and the price drops to $250, then you profit $1,500. The upkeep is not that expensive. I breed my own rodents, so that helps keep cost down. Even if you figure in the cost of upkeep of the three breeders, you will still make a profit after the third year.

Now, if you keep investing in your collection you can do exactly what Deborah did. Get to a point where you are making a good profit and re-investing in your collection. You do have to be smart about it and pick some good genes and quality snakes. You also have to provide great customer service, work at establishing a solid reputation and making good business decisions.

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I agree with Don and Deborah 100%.

In 2009 I purchased a male albino for $275. Last year I produced male albinos and sold them for $250 - $300 and pretty much the same this year. Prices will drop and that is expected as the supply becomes greater than the demand but I would also expect that prices come to a plateau. Use the example of the albino, I don't think they will come down much more from where they are today.

They key is to produce quality animals, provide excellent customer service and produce animals that others will desire to add to their collection.
Just my 2 cents.

My point wasn't that you can't have a self sustaining hobby. My point was that you are not going to get into this to make a living off of it unless you spend quit a bit of money.

As far as upkeep goes. We have around 100 balls. They really don't cost much after the initial cost of the original animal and the tubs and water bowls. We use free newsprint for the tubs. I am sure the heat adds up a little over the year. The Biggest part is the rodents. We go through around $1000 (give or take) a year for bedding and food.

Female balls will not go every year. Some will, some wont. Some will go at 2 years of age some more than 3. Last year we only had 6 clutches. We still managed to make about 7k. The only problem with that was that about 6k of that was in trades. We have only been breeding balls for about 5 years. The prices in the past 5 years have dropped SIGNIFICANTLY.
Pewter females were going for about $2400 in 07. They now go for about $300-400.
Calico's were about $5-6k, now $300-500.
Pied males were about $3k for med white, now $500.
Lavs were going for about $12k, now $1500-2k. Hets were about 2k a pair now $500.
Some morphs have stayed relatively close to what they were, like Pastels.

If you bought a female Calico in 07 for 6k chances are she was only able to breed for one or 2 seasons. Lets say she took 4 years to go and this was your first season breeding her and she gave you one clutch of 8 eggs. If you get lucky and get 6 Calico's, all female... that's $1800. Now I am sure she wasn't bred to just a normal. So maybe she was bred by your 07 Lemon Pastel that you paid $200 for back in 07. now the babies you produced were 3.3 Pastel Calico's. That's about $5400. Not bad at all. But that's if you started out 5 years ago, Not now.


Colin Weaver (ECRB) has written up some rather good articles about our hobby, the costs associated with and the price drops.

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Originally Posted by joebad976

I agree with Don and Deborah 100%.

In 2009 I purchased a male albino for $275.

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That was a killer deal I guess because males were actually selling for about $400-500 in 09 and het pairs were about $300.

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Originally Posted by collrak

I agree. You can't come into this hobby thinking that you'll make a profit. Sure, there are breeders that do it full time for a living, but for most of us who have day jobs, it's a money losing hobby. That's what hobbies are though. We spend money on it for our enjoyment, not necessarily for a profit. Breeding and selling just helps offset the cost of maintaining the hobby. Morph prices drop so quickly too. Look at bumblebees and lemon blasts. They're beautiful 2-gene combos, but by next year you'll see males going for $200 and females for $300, if not lower.

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Lemon Blasts are already there, I was going to pick one up from my boss for $250.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Over how many years and when did you start? Not to mention that it was a lot different when you started up. Imagine you just now starting up. Do you think it would end up being the same way now? I doubt it. The economy plus the prices are so drastically different now days. Like comparing apples to oranges. Not to mention Deb, you also have some stuff that you proved out yourself don't you? That helps out your collection a lot. :D

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While I have over a decade experience with various reptiles the breeding part only started in 2008 date at which I produced my first BPs so it's not that long ago (price had already dropped at that point) and again I started modestly with a few hets and other animals, I have always choose quality over quantity and build my collection very slowly holding back most females I have produced.

Yes price on single gene animals have dropped which is why people need to be smart about what they breed if they breed a spider or a pastel to a few normals they are not gonna make a meaningful profit.

They need to chose their project and breed for combos and build their collection slowly if they don't want or can't invest a lot of money but I believe they can still make a profit in 5 years or less.

As for the "thing" (Enchi Pin PH Pied) I proved out this year it is not my animal and while lucky to have produced the very first Enchi Pin Pied I do not own that specific animal but it did help my collection to a degree but not the degree you think ;) (Still working on making more though)

First, I probably have enough new mutations in my racks to know BPs aren't going anywhere for a long time. A looong time.

Second, there is money to be made at any level in ball pythons. I think it takes a knack, and like some have said, quality is very important. It is a separator when producing the same animals as your competitors. People like seeing different and different can be defined by quality or genetics. Different is new, new is interesting, interesting is exciting and excitement sells. I sell to people who are excited about their purchase.

Lastly, I honestly take pride in thinking someone can make money off the animals I sell them. I intend to keep that same principle because I believe it will keep good returning customers for me. I want to be held accountable, and even though I'm not breeding their snakes for them, I still take that into account into my business goals and development.

A lot of breeders really don't care and just want to make money. They sell animals from unhealthy projects, to uneducated buyers at high prices that are sure to fall. Set people up for failure. I believe that is a problem. If you want to make money or pay for their hobby, please research possible production rates, where that project originated and invest in a breeder like you would the snake you're buying. Investments shouldn't be hair pulling, but fun and exciting.