Having Temp Trouble

I got my first ball python a couple weeks ago, and I have been having trouble keeping my temperature consistent. I don't want to do anything to hurt my new girl, so if anyone has any advice that would be fantastic. I have her in a 10g glass tank, with a uth plugged into a thermostat on the hot side and a heat lamp on the cool side. The reason I have a heat lamp on the cool side is that my room can get chilly, especially at night, and the temperature on that side is way too cold without it. I use cypress bark as a substrate. Even the hot side, which is plugged into a thermostat, fluctuates! I have two probe thermometers, one for each side, that I believe to be reliable.

What are your temps?

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Originally Posted by PorcelainxDoll

What are your temps?

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk 2

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X2............... are you running too hot or cold???

And just how cool does your room get?
It can be hard to maintain temps - even with UTH and a heat lamp - if your room is colder than 65.

My temps I aim for are around 80 on the cool side during the day and about 88-90 on the hot spot. I can keep it there most of the time, but it takes constant fiddling which isn't practical. At night the cool side wants to drop to 70, but I turn the heat lamp WAY up to keep it from doing so. But it can drop all the way to 75 on the cool side even with the heat lamp all the way up, and 85 on the warm side even with my uth plugged into a thermostat.

Our house is set to be 75 at night right now (I live in Arizona so it is still really hot outside and we need air conditioning on). It shouldn't drop below 65 ever, even in winter. The biggest issue is that my air vent is on the top of the wall, so cool air falls directly into the tank no matter where I have it in my room. Putting the tank in another room isn't an option because of my cat. I try to block off most of the top with a cloth (not close enough to the heat lamp to catch fire of course!), and it helps a little but not a lot.

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And during the day it can get a little too hot on the cool side even with the heat lamp all the way off, but I don't know if there is anything I can do about that.

Where exactly is your T-stat probe and does it have a night drop function?

Have you insulated the sides and back?

You can use an interior probe placement safely this will stabilize the hot spot temps. There are a few criteria to meet first to do this safely and ultimately they cost. If you wish I can tell you. The big thing is you need MUST have in fact for this method a fail safe T-stat. I would suggest a herpstat 1 as a primary. I can describe it at length if you wish.

There will be those who will say it is unsafe but the method I can describe would take a exceptionally strong snake and the concurrent
failure of two thermostats it is unlikely to say the least.

My t-stat probe is placed between the uth and the glass on the outside. I do have an internal probe thermometer on the inside secured with hot glue over the glass that the uth heats so that I can keep track of that temp as well.

I do not have the sides and back insulated. I didn't even think about that! Should I wrap a towel/blanket around the sides?

I really can't afford a thermostat as expensive as the herpstat 1 right now, on top of having just bought my snake and everything she needs. I will try insulating her tank and see if that helps. I'm also going to buy a timer from walmart for the heat lamp so I don't have to keep turning it up and down myself.

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Originally Posted by sirj

My t-stat probe is placed between the uth and the glass on the outside. I do have an internal probe thermometer on the inside secured with hot glue over the glass that the uth heats so that I can keep track of that temp as well.

I do not have the sides and back insulated. I didn't even think about that! Should I wrap a towel/blanket around the sides?

I really can't afford a thermostat as expensive as the herpstat 1 right now, on top of having just bought my snake and everything she needs. I will try insulating her tank and see if that helps. I'm also going to buy a timer from walmart for the heat lamp so I don't have to keep turning it up and down myself.

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IMHO messing with insulating the outside of the tank is not practical. Its is not likely to influence the temp more than a degree or so, and the thought of towels and heating elements in close proximity scares me, and doesn't look great. Try a 50w red heat bulb. You can keep this on 24/7 if needed, as snakes do not see this spectrum of color. In a 10G tank, you can actually let this lamp stay in the middle of the tank or only slightly to the cooler side. If she has a hide on both sides, she has ample opportunity to thermo-regulate by laying in the light for more heat, or in the hide for a little less. In addition, the 50w light covering the whole tank, may allow you to lower your uth thermostat slightly.

One other trick I used before switching to tubs, I put my uth on a ceramic tile, so the heating element itself was only touching glass, or tile, which meant fire was impossible. Overheat could still occur, with failed stat, but if you are monitoring, you should catch it.

Fiddle with it, and be patient. You will find right formula.

My snake room is this morning is 66ºF I have insulated enclosures (energy efficient ones too) The ambients are all in the 80ºs insulation in my experience is good for 3-7º depending. I don't like blankets but instead rigid pink or blue insulation it is easy to cut and deal with and the thiner stuff is also not super expensive. Too bad about the night drop it can be used to counter the night temps. It sounds like a bulb or some sort will be needed I would suggest side turning the tank if you have the money for a bit of plexi for the door (about 25-50$ depending) It holds heat and humidity like a PVC enclosure. Ambient temps may be heated with a fluorescent bulb in the day and deep blue LED in the night.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...arium-Solution

If this is not possible I'd suggest a bulb. I would use a deep blue bulb as snakes in general and specifically royal pythons see visually from the mid 500nm to 800+nm red being 660-800 red is what they see the best. The centre of our spectrum is yellow so the idea is a yellow light (tungsten light bulb) is loosely how a snake sees deep red. When you add trigeminal nerve and het pits to the equation they clearly see deep reds and infrared and the animal is tuned for this end of the spectrum. The eye of pythons has a yellow coating (part of the spectacle scale) that blocks UV and blue light. I would use blue as they have very low visual acuity to blues.

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Originally Posted by AdamF

Try a 50w red heat bulb. You can keep this on 24/7 if needed, as snakes do not see this spectrum of color.

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This is completely incorrect. Geckos sure snakes not at all. Snakes are tuned for red blue is a visual neutral colour. Many have commented on snakes tracking the point of a red laser from a IR gun.
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...t=follow+laser

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

My snake room is this morning is 66ºF I have insulated enclosures (energy efficient ones too) The ambients are all in the 80ºs insulation in my experience is good for 3-7º depending. I don't like blankets but instead rigid pink or blue insulation it is easy to cut and deal with and the thiner stuff is also not super expensive. Too bad about the night drop it can be used to counter the night temps. It sounds like a bulb or some sort will be needed I would suggest side turning the tank if you have the money for a bit of plexi for the door (about 25-50$ depending) It holds heat and humidity like a PVC enclosure. Ambient temps may be heated with a fluorescent bulb in the day and deep blue LED in the night.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...arium-Solution

If this is not possible I'd suggest a bulb. I would use a deep blue bulb as snakes in general and specifically royal pythons see visually from the mid 500nm to 800+nm red being 660-800 red is what they see the best. The centre of our spectrum is yellow so the idea is a yellow light (tungsten light bulb) is loosely how a snake sees deep red. When you add trigeminal nerve and het pits to the equation they clearly see deep reds and infrared and the animal is tuned for this end of the spectrum. The eye of pythons has a yellow coating (part of the spectacle scale) that blocks UV and blue light. I would use blue as they have very low visual acuity to blues.



This is completely incorrect. Geckos sure snakes not at all. Snakes are tuned for red blue is a visual neutral colour. Many have commented on snakes tracking the point of a red laser from a IR gun.
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...t=follow+laser

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Any night bulb, red, black etc will work. This is CORRECT. The laser light is completely different that incandescent. This is one reason humans can stare at a red reptile bulb for some time, but will suffer serious eye damage from only a few seconds of direct laser light. Snake pits can "feel" infrared heat with their pits, but their ability to see this color with their eyes, is minimal if at all. I am of course talking about the night reptile bulbs, and not a red Xmas Tree light. If you want to start messing around with R ratings and insulation, i'm sure you can rig up something, but think about all you must to when you need to wash out the tank. Much to move, and it if the snake is in a living area, as opposed to a snake room, it will be quite the eyesore. In addition, florescent lights give off minimal heat, and are not used to generate heat. Some of the posts above are anecdotal from hobbyists, and not scientific.


http://www.nature.com/news/2010/1003....2010.122.html


http://exoticpets.about.com/cs/pytho...lpythons_2.htm

Ok I suffered the same problem as you and it's pretty much solved. My room gets to around 65 at night and warms up kind of during the day. What I ended up doing was wrapping the sides and back with a blanket as a quick solution. It kept my temperatures much more stable. I suspend my lamp a little closer to the cool side and it is on 24/7. I have a 20 gallon long and the lamp is a black light 75 watt. It came with a dimmer so I adjust accordingly but most of the time it's at full power all the time. You might want to get a more accurate thermostat? That might be a "problem". I keep my hotside 87 degrees and in conjunction of the heat lamp it pretty much stays that way, but I see my thermostat really working at it to keep it like that. ALSO I would get a temperature gun. I got mine on wednesday and I have no idea what I would do without it. And cover the screen top (at least 65% of the top as hot air rises and the screen doesn't really stop the heat from escaping.

If you're handy take a look at this: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...nsulating+tank

As a long term solution (which is what I am doing) Get some foam boards (or actual insulation which is what I'm doing), glue on some aquarium background and glue that onto the sides of the tank. pretty insulation! DIY: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ium+background

TL;DR: Wrap your tank in a blankie to keep the temperatures more stable. Cover at least 65% of the screen top. Keep the humidity at 50%+, as water in the air helps keep temperatures more stable as well. And take a look at both links. Hope you have as much success as I do!

Once again this is really funny and totally incorrect. The eye of Royals has very few cones mostly only rods these are middle wave photo receptors. The simply do not see blues at all. The eye structure is likely only dichromate and likely yellow reds based on the spectral response of the two cone pigments. The sensitivity is mostly on the long end of the spectrum not the short. Red is long wave. So red yes blue no. Clearly you have very little understanding of the animal "feel" IR really?

In pythons that have heat pit membrane is populated by the trigeminal nerve masses. This nerve carries signals are relayed to the optic tectum this processes the IR information and integrated with the optical information from the eye and the best guess is overlaid. If it can be separated and concentrated singly or not is open to debate. But they MOST certainly do not feel heat with the heat pits the 'see' heat. Not that this changes the response of the two cone pigments.

If you are going to make blanket statements make sure they are correct.

http://www.mapoflife.org/topics/topi...ion-in-snakes/
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/202/14/1931.full.pdf

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Once again this is really funny and totally incorrect. The eye of Royals has very few cones mostly only rods these are middle wave photo receptors. The simply do not see blues at all. The eye structure is likely only dichromate and likely yellow reds based on the spectral response of the two cone pigments. The sensitivity is mostly on the long end of the spectrum not the short. Red is long wave. So red yes blue no. Clearly you have very little understanding of the animal "feel" IR really?

In pythons that have heat pit membrane is populated by the trigeminal nerve masses. This nerve carries signals are relayed to the optic tectum this processes the IR information and integrated with the optical information from the eye and the best guess is overlaid. If it can be separated and concentrated singly or not is open to debate. But they MOST certainly do not feel heat with the heat pits the 'see' heat. Not that this changes the response of the two cone pigments.

If you are going to make blanket statements make sure they are correct.

http://www.mapoflife.org/topics/topi...ion-in-snakes/
http://jeb.biologists.org/content/202/14/1931.full.pdf

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LOL, go look at at infrared images of how pits, work, then get back to us

They are simulated read the science. heck read the article YOU posted...

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In either case we are speaking of eyes all you have managed to prove is snakes sense red very very very well.

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone!

I have a heat bulb over the cool side to keep the ambient temperature up (it has a black heat bulb in it right now). If I didn't have that the temperatures would be way too cool. It came with a dimmer, so I have to constantly adjust that. I think I'm going to get a timer for it so that it turns on when our air goes on.

The "pretty insulation" suggestion sounds promising. I'll at least try insulating and see if that helps even things out a bit.

I think I've solved my issues on the hot side after some fiddling. It stays at about 89 give or take a degree. My main problem is still the cool side, which can drop very very quickly if I am not careful. I go to school for art, so I'm sure I can beg some free insulation from the sculpture majors. I'll make something up quick and see if that helps any.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

They are simulated read the science. heck read the article YOU posted...

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In either case we are speaking of eyes all you have managed to prove is snakes sense red very very very well.

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I know they are simulated, based on science. They also said a snake can "see: a human hand better in a cooler room than in a warmer room. Being the user of big words, pretending to impress, I'm sure you know why. The hand is the same color, but the pits tell the brain the outline (see) of the object based on HEAT, not color.

nuff said

Oh my goodness First, no person knows how a snake brain interprets images from the eyes and heat pits the same part of the brain is used for both so the example from an IR camera is unlikely to be accurate at all as the visual information is processed with that at the same time. Snakes do not FEEL with heat pits (heat as you stated) they 'see' it with heat pits from a distance. Unless you mean feel and see are the same?

The discussion is do snakes see red with their eyes. YES they have cones that have pigments that correspond to reds and yellows that is about it. The eyes see red. Red light would appear clear and obvious to a python. This is noted and explained in the neuroscience article the same one your posted article is based on the research of. That same article carries on to describe the cones and eye not being very sensitive to Ultraviolet (just before the deep blue part of the spectrum) and that it would have little visual impact but perhaps to increase contrast. You stated they do not see red and then went off on a tangent about heat pits which very clearly are used to detect red light beyond out visual range (INFRARED) AFTER stating snakes CANNOT see RED, clearly, they can then you post an article that CLEARLY states the same thing I have been saying all along.

What are you trying to say? Snakes do not see RED light they feel heat? The heat pits do not sense INFRARED from a distance and the it is not processed by the optical centres of the brain, and they see human visual blue light well? In contradiction to all the science on Royal Pythons available?

I have simply corrected your false statements. Things that are simply untrue, and you argue and present information that proves you incorrect? I am sorry if English is not your first language, using generic words like feel (usually applied to touch) and see (applied to wavelengths with optical bits) interchangeably is confusing as it is not typical meanings of those words. The parts of a snake have names I don't see any problem with using the name of the part you are speaking of. I suppose I could have said the eye scale and not used spectacle scale but it is the spectacle sorry if you find the correct names complex.

Do you know the 'spectrum' ?

UV-violet-blue-green-yellow-orange-red-infrared

Maybe I can simplify things for you. Pythons sense well from the Yellow to the infrared part of the spectrum the other end they do not have good sensing of (UV-violet and blue) Blue in basically invisible and beyond the ability to sense. Red is very easily for pythons to sense. Why Blue is better than red light. HEAT is not different than LIGHT that is why heat lamps are always red. They are in the near infrared spectrum and into the full infrared spectrum. HEAT and Coloured light are the same, just at a different wavelength.

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ULTRA means beyond Ultraviolet = beyond violet

INFRA means further on Infrared = Further past red

get it yet?

Good luck proving to everyone how smart you are.


Animals don't "feel" heat without touching it? This is how snakes with pits "see" their prey. The same "except"?
I have black heat lamps. I have Halogen heat lamps, I have heat emitters. Also not sure why you write "sense" red, instead of "see" red.


You say my info is false, and try to impress us with rods and cones. You cannot prove snakes see red, no matter how many ways you try to say it. Comparing it to lasers is silly.

I can tell you for sure, how may animals behave under red lights and white, and it is vastly different. Have fun with your rods and cones.

Thank you two for "impressing" me :pee: :pee: :pee:

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Originally Posted by AdamF

Good luck proving to everyone how smart you are.
No actually you have proved you have how badly you failed Jr high science. You do not understand even a little bit the EM spectrum.

Animals don't "feel" heat without touching it? This is how snakes with pits "see" their prey.

YES this is 100% correct. YES the see heat what I have been saying all along you are the one whom says they cannot see red, not I.!!! I said they cannot see blues. The article from the journal of neuroscience agrees with this.

"In the rod-dominated retina of P. regius, where all cones are scarce, there are so few ultraviolet-sensitive photoreceptors that it is unreasonable to think that they could do much towards creating any kind of detailed visual picture (assuming that there is no undetected region of the retina that is especially rich in ultraviolet-sensitive cones). They could, however, still serve to alert the snake to anything that creates contrast in its environment by either reflecting or absorbing ultraviolet light."

The EYE responds strongly to 550nm (that is yellow green) and the 700nm range (that is red). They see two colours red and yellow and by default orange (red and yellow combined) the article I posted is clear. Very poor vision in the blue end of the spectrum.

Human vision extends to 750nm Infrared is 750+ Just outside our vision. When you turn a stove on HI the metal element glows? YES! RED. Why? not because it has a light bulb in the metal because it is emitting IR radiation from the 700nm-1000nm range Pythons see with their eyes this red light and they see with the heat pits this red light. If you touch the cherry RED element you will be burned as it is HOT. RED light and IR are the difference between 750nm to 751nm. Light and heat are not separate things they are all EM radiation. I don't need to prove this is is basic school physics. Nothing more. If you agree that the heat pits 'see' and you agree they hunt by IR radiation how do you fail to understand they see red?


The same "except"?
I have black heat lamps. I have Halogen heat lamps, I have heat emitters. Also not sure why you write "sense" red, instead of "see" red.

I write sense because you seem to not seem understand see and feel.





You say my info is false, and try to impress us with rods and cones. You cannot prove snakes see red, no matter how many ways you try to say it. Comparing it to lasers is silly.

First, laser = Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation. Laser light is very pointed concentrated light Often red but sometimes green and blue. Red lasers are 635nm so that is in the visual range of pythons so yes they see the laser light. Lasers are similar in using a magnifying glass to condense the light of the sun to a small point. It doesn't magically not become light. It stays light very concentrated and controlled but still just light on the EM spectrum.

I don't have to prove pythons see red, YOU DID!!!! The article you posted does prove that. You are saying the article YOU posted is wrong!!!! YOU are saying they cannot see red and infrared. I am saying they can see Red and IR the article I posted describes they can with both eyes using the rods and cones and that the heat pits can also see the red end of the spectrum.


I can tell you for sure, how may animals behave under red lights and white, and it is vastly different. Have fun with your rods and cones.

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I never said they don't behave differently I said that pythons don't see blue. You said they don't see red and then in every post you have made contradicted this simple fact. Maybe this will help?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:El...c-Spectrum.png

Pythons using their eyes see between 550nm-750nm the heat pits extend this to 1000nm (far IR) so they see between 550-1000nm. Yellow green to far IR. I am suggesting bulbs between 450nm ranges they don't see this wavelength well.

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Sorry Rob, I have a hard time with the statements that are 100% wrong it makes us all look bad.