Desert Morph, what are your thoughts?

Im considering getting into deserts, have a male line up, but just wanted to get opinions on the subject. Im familiar with the female fertility issue and it seems that the prices on this morph have been dropping. I think they are awesome and are key to making very sweet combos however I'm wondering if the demand for these guys is dropping (due to the presumed fertility issues) or if people are finding alternative similar genes to this morph and going that direction with their projects. Lets hear your thoughts, thanks.

I have one snd bred it and trust me, you sit on female deserts awhile

Of course the demand is going down...IMO not worth breeding the Desert gene...If you want one as a pet maybe...I wouldn't tie up any of my females with a Desert breeding.

I would consider a desert ghost before i would purchase a desert just because of the female problems. Unless the problems with the females get figured out. Same reason i will stay away from caramel albinos just going to wait until toffees get more affordable or they figure out the females issues. Yes deserts make killer morphs and they are very unique but the problems they have outweigh their beauty for me unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by oskyle1567

I would consider a desert ghost before i would purchase a desert just because of the female problems. Unless the problems with the females get figured out. Same reason i will stay away from caramel albinos just going to wait until toffees get more affordable or they figure out the females issues. Yes deserts make killer morphs and they are very unique but the problems they have outweigh their beauty for me unfortunately.

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Desert ghost is different from deserts.

:(I was afraid this wasnt going to go well

I love desert combos, and if you really like the look of them I don't see why it would be an issue. A lot of people are coming to terms with the fact that females are going to be "pet only" animals, but the pricing doesn't reflect it yet. You can still sell your males, and you get some pretty awesome looking snakes period

My boy is so beautiful, if u like them get a girl as a pet. Breeding them is sad when you get good odds but bits a female:(

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Originally Posted by coldbloodaddict

Of course the demand is going down...IMO not worth breeding the Desert gene...If you want one as a pet maybe...I wouldn't tie up any of my females with a Desert breeding.

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I agree

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Originally Posted by coldbloodaddict

Of course the demand is going down...IMO not worth breeding the Desert gene...If you want one as a pet maybe...I wouldn't tie up any of my females with a Desert breeding.

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X2 and it erks me to still see female deserts at the price point people are asking

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Originally Posted by oskyle1567

I would consider a desert ghost before i would purchase a desert just because of the female problems. Unless the problems with the females get figured out. Same reason i will stay away from caramel albinos just going to wait until toffees get more affordable or they figure out the females issues. Yes deserts make killer morphs and they are very unique but the problems they have outweigh their beauty for me unfortunately.

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I agree go with desert ghost. I would not tie any of my females up with a desert either.

Deserts are for sure a dead end project. There is nothing to figure out with the females. They can't reproduce. The price is still high with most people because they are trying to recoup what they invested. Not gona happen. I wouldn’t even pay the price that most are asking for a male. IMO a Desert male or female isn't worth any more than $400-500 tops.

Yeah this is gonna be a hard decision. I really wanted one when they first started popping up but my interest has dwindled since. I would be trading a hatchling ivory female for him so I wouldnt be investing much into it but I guess I would rather get into another project that is going somewhere and not tie up my females. I suppose Id rather get into some pied, sable combo, genetic stripe stuff anyway. I guess we'll see. Thanks

I love the desert gene. The deserts themselves are awesome looking in person, and the combos are unreal -- some of my absolute favorites.

That said, I'm not investing in even a male right now, and I may not ever.

I agree with what's already been said, that right now, the prices are dropping and are going to keep dropping -- fast. I don't know if I think it's a "dead end" project per se, but I do think it's a poor investment at the moment. I think the prices will keep going down as more and more people learn about the issues with females and even the males become tougher to sell. I predict (and as always, reserve the right to be wrong) that next year, deserts will be cheaper than cheap. This is the first year, AFAIK, that the evidence has become so overwhelming -- that enough people are showing their dead or slugged out desert females -- that we can all pretty much 100% agree that the females can't breed. I think the dust is still settling, so to speak ...

I find it difficult to envision that such a stunning morph could completely disappear off the map, so I don't know that I think that'll quite happen. I *think* (though again, could be wrong) that they're just too pretty for the whole community to abandon the project entirely.

What I've been waiting on is not only for the prices to stabilize, but also to see how we, as a community, are able to handle the concept of females being truly "pet only." Yes, with caramel females you have a pretty good chance of getting slugs -- but at least she's not any more likely to die laying than any other female. IMO, there's no ethical problem with breeding caramel females; it's just the economics of the initial investment.

With desert females, it seems like there's a pretty good chance that a female will die if bred, and that, to me, makes trying to breed them a serious ethical issue. Thus, if I, as a breeder, produce female deserts, I have a responsibility to ensure that they ALL go to homes where they will never be bred. Right now, I sure don't believe I could ensure that. The ball python hobby is focused on breeding, breeding, breeding, so with the lifespan of these animals and the number of times they change hands during that life, I think it's only a matter of time before she winds up in the hands of someone who either doesn't know about the issues, or knows but figures he'll "give it a shot" anyway.

So, I love to look at deserts and I think they're absolutely gorgeous. I wish I could add a desert project to my collection, but I definitely won't be doing it for awhile -- because of the pricing -- if ever -- because of the female issues. If I truly thought that I could successfully place 1/4 of all of my desert clutch offspring in a pet-only home, I'd breed them, but I don't know if that will ever be the case.

I saw desert females here at Tinley for $300. Males are still $1,000. The $300 females were SMOKIN, too bad they are pets only.

I won't be getting into deserts, but I do think I see things differently.

You can still breed males and advance genetically farther with males. I just see it as having your odds cut in half for something you might want to produce. Breed a male desert to an enchi, you have a 1/8 chance of a tiger male. Just makes those high end combos that much harder to produce. Hit on a female... dead end, sorry, pet only animal. Due to the issue I just have that much more respect for the desert combos being produced.

If you look at these animals as an investment, yes it is a horrible project. Purely from a hobby perspective, there is much to be done with these guys. It's not like we are producing complete failure of an animal, you just can't breed females.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

I won't be getting into deserts, but I do think I see things differently.

You can still breed males and advance genetically farther with males. I just see it as having your odds cut in half for something you might want to produce. Breed a male desert to an enchi, you have a 1/8 chance of a tiger male. Just makes those high end combos that much harder to produce. Hit on a female... dead end, sorry, pet only animal. Due to the issue I just have that much more respect for the desert combos being produced.

If you look at these animals as an investment, yes it is a horrible project. Purely from a hobby perspective, there is much to be done with these guys. It's not like we are producing complete failure of an animal, you just can't breed females.

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I would love to be able to look at it like this, and I do hope that down the road I feel comfortable adding a desert project. Right now, I just don't trust that the females I produced would remain pets, and not bred due to ignorance or "just to see what happens."

I'm certainly not of a mind that every single ball python produced into this world has to be bred -- far from it -- I think it would be great to advance and encourage the notion that "pet only" is a fun and perfectly valid way to enjoy ball python morphs. Moreover, I could even try to take your argument one step further and posit that the infertility of females could eventually be a good thing for the project, keeping numbers down as only 1/4 of all offspring from a desert breeding would be breed-able deserts.

I just ... Don't know how things are going to pan out yet.

Cool looking animal, great looking combos but I am not interested I was actually recently offered a male and 2 free females in trade an I passed on it.

Yes I could produce males and combo males and sell them without any problem for now but what about the females? I will either be stucked with them (space for my other projects is already limited) or have sell them as pet only and I cannot in good conscience sell an animal as pet only because I know for some people the temptation will be too big and they will likely try to breed them anyway.

I think better alternatives exist at the price range males are selling for. Also I think the desert effect can be duplicated in other ways, might take more time as you will be dealing with more genes, but I think it can be done.

Female deserts at the Canadian Reptile Breeders Expo could be had for $100.

That's what they're worth, as even normal girls will give you eggs!

Chris

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Originally Posted by Valentine Pirate

I love desert combos, and if you really like the look of them I don't see why it would be an issue. A lot of people are coming to terms with the fact that females are going to be "pet only" animals, but the pricing doesn't reflect it yet. You can still sell your males, and you get some pretty awesome looking snakes period

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Although I love the combos Deserts make, the problem lies when the combos become indistinguishable and we are left guessing what things are. I personally think Deserts are extremely overpriced considering the maternal issues they present. Females should be $50 normals in my opinion. I'm not trying to discredit those breeding or selling them by saying so, but the evidence shows females cannot reproduce. I would be upset if down the road I picked up a nice combo female that turned out to have the desert gene in the mix.

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

I would love to be able to look at it like this, and I do hope that down the road I feel comfortable adding a desert project. Right now, I just don't trust that the females I produced would remain pets, and not bred due to ignorance or "just to see what happens."

Moreover, I could even try to take your argument one step further and posit that the infertility of females could eventually be a good thing for the project, keeping numbers down as only 1/4 of all offspring from a desert breeding would be breed-able deserts.

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IMO if you worry about what others might do, you are going to have a rough time in this world. If you educate them about the issue, you did all you are responsible for. Most people I would have to imagine after being educated would not spend the time and money to raise an animal up just to send it to it's death.

As for keeping the numbers down, something to mention is it will always be 1/4 of a clutch, since there is no way to make a homozygous. I think it makes the project that much more interesting.

It's not worth messing with in my eye's, even with you just trading for it I would pass

There are a good number of people with large amounts of money tied into the desert project, and who have been growing females for breeding. I spoke to someone at Tinley who has about $100k tied into deserts, and when you have that much riding on success, I think there's eventually going to be a solution to the female problem. I certainly wouldn't advise anyone invest in the project as it currently is nor would I want to do so myself, but humans are very innovative creatures and money is a big motivator to finding solutions. All it takes is one person to unlock that secret to breeding them.

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Originally Posted by Slashmaster

There are a good number of people with large amounts of money tied into the desert project, and who have been growing females for breeding. I spoke to someone at Tinley who has about $100k tied into deserts, and when you have that much riding on success, I think there's eventually going to be a solution to the female problem. I certainly wouldn't advise anyone invest in the project as it currently is nor would I want to do so myself, but humans are very innovative creatures and money is a big motivator to finding solutions. All it takes is one person to unlock that secret to breeding them.

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+1 someone will find some (most likely stupid) trick to get females to go an BAM! well have them...maybe it will be a surgery or who knows?

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Originally Posted by Ridinandreptiles

+1 someone will find some (most likely stupid) trick to get females to go an BAM! well have them...maybe it will be a surgery or who knows?

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There is a thread over on Reptile Radio where people are doing just that. Everyone has come together and pooling money trying all kinds of ideas and tests. They may end up unlocking it or proving it to be just a genetic flaw.

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Originally Posted by angeluscorpion

There is a thread over on Reptile Radio where people are doing just that. Everyone has come together and pooling money trying all kinds of ideas and tests. They may end up unlocking it or proving it to be just a genetic flaw.

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I posted a link to in a thread somewhere, they did surgery on a desert female to remove a slug and they photographed the whole thing. There's weird strictures in the female's oviduct that nothing can pass through, several of them. So there's physical problems with their reproductive organs.

My viewpoint on deserts: they're HAWT, if they didn't have the issue they do I would be all over them. I would probably get into them at some point if it was an issue like with caramels, but being as the females can die I will not work with them at all.

I couldn't in good conscience breed a male desert bc every female desert I produced may at some point die if they fall into unknowing hands. Bp's are long lived snakes, even if the buyer intends to keep them pet only and be their forever home, things happen. That buyer could have to give up the snake at some point. Even if whoever gets the snake after that isn't trying to breed, look how many newbs try to house 2 snakes together and generally don't know their genders. Pet stores house multiple snakes together too. The possibility that that snake could be accidentally bred and die is too great imo. I don't judge anyone who IS working with them, I just personally will not be.

Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2

Yup, decided to pass on the desert. Too much hooblah and too many variables.

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Originally Posted by Slashmaster

There are a good number of people with large amounts of money tied into the desert project, and who have been growing females for breeding. I spoke to someone at Tinley who has about $100k tied into deserts, and when you have that much riding on success, I think there's eventually going to be a solution to the female problem. I certainly wouldn't advise anyone invest in the project as it currently is nor would I want to do so myself, but humans are very innovative creatures and money is a big motivator to finding solutions. All it takes is one person to unlock that secret to breeding them.

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It is thinking like this that has kept the prices artificially inflated. The market for Deserts would have crashed well before it did without the "someone HAS to figure it out" mentality. And, a lot more folks got screwed on the project. Why can people not believe the simplest answer, we HAVE figured out. Females are not capable of laying a fertile clutch, and it is in fact dangerous (possibly deadly) for the females to even try.

Also, if you think 100K is enough to get real science interested in helping figure any of it out, you are wrong. The first real step would be mapping the BP genome, and no one is willing to fund that project. Nor, are they willing to fund the other very expensive tests required to find the crux of the problem.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

IMO if you worry about what others might do, you are going to have a rough time in this world. If you educate them about the issue, you did all you are responsible for. Most people I would have to imagine after being educated would not spend the time and money to raise an animal up just to send it to it's death.

As for keeping the numbers down, something to mention is it will always be 1/4 of a clutch, since there is no way to make a homozygous. I think it makes the project that much more interesting.

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Believe me, I don't blame myself for the actions of others. I make the best effort I can to place the animals that I produce into good homes, and that's the best I can do.

I accept the fact that stuff happens in people's lives, that animals get sold or given away even out of homes that originally had the best of intentions. I don't make my buyers sign contracts stating that they won't breed or trying to force them to give their animals back to me if they can no longer keep them. Could you imagine if Ball Python breeders did that? ("In the event that you can no longer keep this female Enchi, you must give it back to me. No re-homing fee will be given." Yeah right!) To me, the buyer who signs a contract like that doesn't really OWN that animal, and while I can appreciate the need for such contracts in some cases and for some species, that isn't really the way I operate.

Because of that, I view it as my responsibility as a breeder of animals to produce animals that have a good crack at life. You're right -- I can't control what other people do with the animals that I produce (not even with signed contracts), and I don't expect to. Because of that, and because I acknowledge that very few (probably almost no) snakes get a "forever home" right from birth, I have serious issues with putting babies out into the world that will likely die if bred. (Or that will propagate a serious genetic defect -- which is another debate along the same lines.)

Brandon Osborne also brought up a great point that I hadn't even thought of ... What about those super crazy combos where genes start to get hidden? I wouldn't be very happy if I purchased a combo female who had a "hidden" desert gene ... Along the same lines, do I really want to do a six-gene breeding with desert in it if I'm going to risk producing females that may have the desert gene? When you're talking super high-gene breedings where most every egg is virtually guaranteed a "good one," I could see that a desert gene in the mix might actually be a detriment, as 1/4 of the offspring will be effectively sterile ...

Hammer...meet nail head.

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

Hammer...meet nail head.

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Agreed, sadly greed is a mighty strong motivator.

The desert ghost makes some equally amazing combos without issues, but then that takes longer and isn't an instant money maker :rolleyes:

This has been very interesting so far with some very valid points from both sides. I am mainly concerned about being stuck with a bunch of babies that I may possibly not be able to find homes for and have to care for myself and not a huge fan of creating some multi gene snakes and meeting a dead end on my efforts because they are female. Although they look great and create awesome combos I see it reaching a certain point then going nowhere.
On the other point about being able to figure the female fertility issue out, I just dont know about that, I'm not trying to buy any snake oil from the snake oil salesman, just sounds like alot of hype to keep the project going so people can recoup their investments.
Although money is a strong motivator to figure out solutions to projects sometimes there is just no hope and people need to go in a direction with their solutions. Throwing money at something wont make it work. If it did we would have cold fusion, applicable non chemical propulsion space travel, time machines, no disease, and world peace.:D
Although these things may come to pass it wont be anytime in the near future without some serious advancements or without looking into alternative directions.