De novo mutations in captivity

I enjoy reading the stories behind various morphs. Most of them start with "it was imported in 200x," but not all ... I was just reading the story of Corey Woods' "Mutation X" and it sounds as though (if I'm reading it right) this is one morph that truly arose spontaneously in captivity -- not present in the parent snakes' genotypes.

http://www.reptileradio.net/reptiler...750#post718750

From what I can recall, the puzzle ball morph arose in captivity as well ... Are those the only two, or am I missing any? (Or am I the only one who gets a kick out of this, ha ha ...)

When I purchased my pastel special from Tom Baker, he said he adopted several adult ball pythons for $100. He said one of them looked different, so he posted pictures to the forums, and everyone said it was normal. He purchased a mojave male for $7000, and wanted to produce more.. When he paired the mojo male to the odd female, he hatched a crystal :D. Very cool story to hear :P.

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Originally Posted by h00blah

When I purchased my pastel special from Tom Baker, he said he adopted several adult ball pythons for $100. He said one of them looked different, so he posted pictures to the forums, and everyone said it was normal. He purchased a mojave male for $7000, and wanted to produce more.. When he paired the mojo male to the odd female, he hatched a crystal :D. Very cool story to hear :P.

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I love that story ... Partly because it's a fun one in its own right, and partly because it gives me hope that my two CB "dinker" girls might prove out to be what I hope they might be (and yep, one of them is a "possible special" ...) :please:

I wonder, though, if those were de novo mutations, or if they were just so subtle that they slipped through the cracks at the importers ... :confusd:

Is puzzle recessive? The thing with recessives is, they probably didn't spontaneously "arise" in captivity---the gene was probably just floating around invisibly in the hets, and finally somebody got lucky enough to pair two carriers together.

But there are SO MANY genes in ball pythons. So many, you gotta wonder how often new mutations happens...

That's going to get confusing. Corey's mutation X and Justin's Gene X.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by loonunit

Is puzzle recessive? The thing with recessives is, they probably didn't spontaneously "arise" in captivity---the gene was probably just floating around invisibly in the hets, and finally somebody got lucky enough to pair two carriers together.

But there are SO MANY genes in ball pythons. So many, you gotta wonder how often new mutations happens...

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Whoop, you're right. It is recessive. I had thought it was co-dom, sorry. :oops:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

That's going to get confusing. Corey's mutation X and Justin's Gene X.

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YES. THANK YOU.

(I have a Gene X het pied male. This is already causing me to despair.)

Personally I don't think there has ever been a De novo ball python mutation in captivity. Drinkers are imported all the time. There are ball pythons that have been in captivity for many years that have probably never been bred. Not to mention, who takes the time to breed back every normal looking ball python? How many more recessive traits are out there that no one has found? Look at the Bourgogne Albino. Just because no one has seen it before, doesn't necessarily qualify it as De nova.

Supposedly the jaguar carpet python arose spontaneously in captivity.

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

Supposedly the jaguar carpet python arose spontaneously in captivity.

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in 1997.
To my knowledge though no codominant/dominant ball python morphs have ever originated in captivity. Sure at some point they all started some how.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

in 1997.
To my knowledge though no codominant/dominant ball python morphs have ever originated in captivity. Sure at some point they all started some how.

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Reading Corey Woods' story on the "Mutation X," it sounded to me as though it was a true de novo. I could be misreading it, though, and maybe the founder animal is also a "Mutation X," just not easily identified as such.

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

Reading Corey Woods' story on the "Mutation X," it sounded to me as though it was a true de novo. I could be misreading it, though, and maybe the founder animal is also a "Mutation X," just not easily identified as such.

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The "Mutation X" gene is a dominant gene that originated within my breeding group out of an unrelated breeding. Here is the history;

I bred my original Genetic Stripe male to a Het Red Axanthic female 3 years in a row. She produced all 3 years with sizeable clutches. The first 2 years I produced what I expected to produce, Het Red Axanthics het Genetic Stripe and Het Genetic Stripes. Well the 3rd year out popped a different looking baby "mutation X".

Not thinking the "Mutation X" gene was genetic and just a random fluke I only bred him to 4 females in 2010. The only thing I did know about him was that he was a het genetic stripe (since his father was a genetic stripe). So, I bred him to 4 het Genetic Stripe females and 3 of them produced eggs. The first clutch hatched with no Mutation X babies. However, the second and 3 clutch produced 4 mutation X males and one Genetic Stripe mutation X female proving it to be genetic (at this time I didn't know if it was recessive or dominant). The following year (2011) I bred the original male to other, unrelated females proving it to be a dominant mutation.

I have 1 female from 2010 and a few females from 2011 so it'll be a little while until I can prove if it's just a dominant mutation or a Co-Dom one.

Here are some pictures of the original male from 2008

The original breeding Genetic Stripe x Het RA.

http://www.coreywoods.com/HetRAxGS/GSxHetRA_0460.jpg

Fresh out of the egg baby pics

http://www.coreywoods.com/HetRAxGS/GSxHetRA_4129.jpg

http://www.coreywoods.com/HetRAxGS/GSxHetRA_4169.jpg

http://www.coreywoods.com/HetRAxGS/GSxHetRA_4174.jpg

http://www.coreywoods.com/HetRAxGS/GSxHetRA_4183.jpg

http://www.coreywoods.com/HetRAxGS/GSxHetRA_4188.jpg

At a couple months old.

http://www.coreywoods.com/HetRAxGS/GSxHetRA_6618.jpg

Corey

Some Mutation X crosses so far;

Genetic Stripe (Left) & Mutation X Genetic Stripe (Right)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.n...16430257_n.jpg

Pastel Mutation X

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.n...03144709_n.jpg

Pastel Mutation X (outside) & Pastel (inside)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.n...59737102_n.jpg

Mutation X with a bunch of sibling Genetic Stripes

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.n...27844222_n.jpg

Pastel Mutation X Genetic Stripe & Mutation X Genetic Stripe

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.n..._1838888_n.jpg

Pastel Het RA Mutation X (left), Pastel Mutation X (right)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.n...88332864_n.jpg

Mutation X (left), Het RA (middle) Mutation X Het RA (right)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.n..._7451728_n.jpg

A really light Mutation X with a normal

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.n...45467636_n.jpg

Yearling Mutation X

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.n...46917180_n.jpg

Yearling Genetic Stripe Het RA with Yearling Genetic Stripe Mutation X

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.n...90213423_n.jpg

Yearling Pastel Mutation X Genetic Stripe.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.n...26259071_n.jpg

Regards,
Corey

Corey,
That is a very interesting and awesome story! Looking forward to seeing more with this project.

Thanks for posting that, Corey! :)

Really dig those "mutation X g-stripes" especially!

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Originally Posted by loonunit

YES. THANK YOU.

(I have a Gene X het pied male. This is already causing me to despair.)

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Is that the funnly little dinker guy that I like? He's so cute!