Breeding (again)

So from my other thread, I have 2 healthy pastels and 3 healthy normals (Waiting on 4 to come out.)

I weighed in my normal and she's at ~1750, no rat in her. Up from 1400 after laying. (haven't weighed her for 2 weeks and I might be incompetent with the scale since she usually moves a lot.) This is up from her last year's starting breeding weight of 1600, so I'm glad that she's growing. I know she doesn't care, but I tell her she's gorgeous, because, she is. I know she's a normal with a weird personality, but I don't care.

Male Pastel *finally* ate last week and is up to ~1500-1600 (moving around) from about a 2 month hunger strike. (assist feed 2 weeks ago, because I was getting nervous...) Scolded him today, told him to eat more. He should weigh more than my female being older... *sighs*

And my male normal is going into breeding mode and went on hunger strike. No signs of shed, and just stared at the rat (he usually hunts down the rat). I'll try again on Saturday (since sometimes he has fixed days of the week he'll eat. Weirdo.), but I think the change in light tells that it's time.

Since my female normal is back up to weight, looking pretty with her usual colors and staring down the male ball pythons ALL week, nonstop, not even going into the warm spot, I'm letting her breed again. I'm giving the male pastel a shot for a few days, though I probably will breed him less this year because I'm super nervous about him losing weight, even though he doesn't look unhealthy.

She was so into it, she stopped trying to escape from the enclosure and was checking him out with her tongue. =P

Hoping to buy a female cinnamon this year I've waited years and years for...

I wouldn't worry about your male pastel. It's not uncommon for them to go off of feed when it's time to breed. Also males are generally smaller than the females as a whole so I wouldn't worry about that either.

If her last clutch hasn't even hatched yet, she's nowhere near ready to breed again!!! They only lay once a year and some won't even do that...

He was having trouble during the summer... I wouldn't worry during the winter, but he should have been packing it in during the summer, but only took a few rats here and there. I tried mice too and smaller rats a few times because I was getting desperate. I was going to declare gerbil before he finally took a rat. He's very fussy about temps and humidity... very fussy.

The older male ball python was packing it in, though. And female normal was fine with it.

So I figure if I breed him less during the winter maybe I could get him to eat a few more times, pick up some grams to be healthier and hope in the spring he won't be under too much so he can pick up the weight again.

@coldBloodedaddict

It's been ~2 months since she laid. Eggs are hatched and I didn't maternally incubate. Her weight is up, it's naturally darker here earlier...so she should be fine. Most of the time she lays waaayyy late in the season anyway. (Around August 10th) also she's the type to eat until the last minute.

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Originally Posted by GoldSheep

He was having trouble during the summer... I wouldn't worry during the winter, but he should have been packing it in during the summer, but only took a few rats here and there. I tried mice too and smaller rats a few times because I was getting desperate. I was going to declare gerbil before he finally took a rat. He's very fussy about temps and humidity... very fussy.

The older male ball python was packing it in, though. And female normal was fine with it.

So I figure if I breed him less during the winter maybe I could get him to eat a few more times, pick up some grams to be healthier and hope in the spring he won't be under too much so he can pick up the weight again.

@coldBloodedaddict

It's been ~2 months since she laid. Eggs are hatched and I didn't maternally incubate. Her weight is up, it's naturally darker here earlier...so she should be fine. Most of the time she lays waaayyy late in the season anyway. (Around August 10th) also she's the type to eat until the last minute.

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Yeah I know the time line for eggs hatching...She's not ready to breed again!!! Do what you want though...

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Originally Posted by coldbloodaddict

Yeah I know the time line for eggs hatching...She's not ready to breed again!!! Do what you want though...

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+1. Give her a break. I wait about 6 months between a female laying and starting to breeder her again. Breeding a female constantly is stressful on her, its not just about the weight. Give her time to full recover.

I'd hold off... No need in stressing her needlessly and shortening her lifespan. Give her some time to rest and catch her breath... Maybe get her weight up more? But what you do is up to you, I personally would just hold off.

Question:

I haven't seen any literature on frequency of breeding females among pro breeders. I see the same snakes bred year after year, with no caution on any of the breeding sheets besides weight. Could someone point me to the articles about frequency of breeding females? Also I have ?? about the pro breeders. Should I be concerned if I see consistent breeding of females year after year with no breaks?

I don't like taking advice blind... and yes, I do care about the welfare of the snake... I just need more info.

2 months is half the time off she needs to recuperate imo.

This isn't only about ball python breeding, when you are breeding ANY animal where the lifespan of the mother is important you give her a break. Even fancy mouse and rat breeders put significant limit on how soon after and how many times they can breed total. Ball pythons are programmed to only breed once a year. Trying to do anything else is just adding stress to the mom.

Eh? I'm asking for resources... rather than personal opinion.

Rats and mice are a different species and also a different branch on Animalia...

I'm open to opinion changing, but I need backing, not just "because I said so."

For example, the rat and mice breeders say if you breed less than a month after, then the female rat is likely to die sooner because they are more likely to die of cancer and can significantly shorten the lifespan up to a year, whereas breeding them only 3 times in their lifespan, max, safer with 2 times will create time and the rat can live up to 3-5 years. (source) <-- I would have one, but there isn't a point...

Got anything? I Googled, but couldn't find it. And I did have specific questions I asked.

If someone said 2 months, I'd ask for resources, too. Fair is fair.

I did a basic google search, but nothing abundantly confident or scientific came up. The most I've seen is the standard yearly breeding cycle. I think breeding frequency, like substrate, f/t vs. live, brumation dates, etc., varies depending on the keeper.
While I don't think it'll kill your snake if you breed her again so soon, waiting the extra few months sounds like the safer bet. If you're really dead set on not waiting without an expert opinion saying it's a "less favorable" idea (I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a bad idea...), why not email a breeder you respect and ask them?
Not for nothing; I've seen stray cats breed and birth until they're skin and bones. I've also heard of horses eating themselves to death. While the animal might present signs of being "ready", it's our responsibility as a keeper to moderate them. Snakes don't know to reason that breeding often might shorten their lifespan. In the wild, chances are they'd be picked off by a predator or disease long before old age caught up to them. Evolution would select for those that pushed out as much offspring as they could early on, and having those offspring survive long enough to breed themselves, and so on.
In the end, it just comes down to judgement calls. You know your animals better than we do. If you think the payout is worth the potential risks, go for it.
If you do breed early, it might be worth considering posting your records of feeding, incubation times & temps, etc. If something goes wrong, the community will be better informed about waiting to breed. If everything is fine, some might choose to increase their production.
Good luck! :)

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Eh? I'm asking for resources... rather than personal opinion.

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There is no resources except actual breeders who do this year in and year out...

Following your logic it will be near impossible to find specific research on breeding BPs.. What you do is up to you, people don't necessarily think it's a good idea and many breeders do things the way they do for a reason, namely to make sure that their animals survive in part to keep having babies and in part to continue having the animal.

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Originally Posted by GoldSheep

Question:

I haven't seen any literature on frequency of breeding females among pro breeders. I see the same snakes bred year after year, with no caution on any of the breeding sheets besides weight. Could someone point me to the articles about frequency of breeding females? Also I have ?? about the pro breeders. Should I be concerned if I see consistent breeding of females year after year with no breaks?

I don't like taking advice blind... and yes, I do care about the welfare of the snake... I just need more info.

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Aslong as females regain the weight from the previous breeding season plus add some additional weight, are still in good overall health and you don't notice a drop in clutch size if she has been breed for multiple years. Yes a female can be breed every year. Even so many breeders will still give females a year off every few years.
It's also pretty much standard knowledge that females will only breed and lay once a year, usually about the same time every year too.

As far as getting more information. The best way to get the info and knowledge you are looking for is going to be from asking questions on forums like this and having experienced breeders respond to you!
Which for your situation 2(Jon aka Coldbloodaddict and Jerry aka SnakesRkewl) very well known and experienced breeders have already told you that you should just continue feeding your female and wait atleast a couple more months before you start pairing her again.

Look, this is my logic. From my experience and what I've read over the past few years, females usually always ovulate around the same times every year. In my opinion, it won't matter if you pair her right now. She most likely won't ovulate any sooner. Wait a few months, pair her in the spring. If she's ready, she'll go. In her own time. I've experienced females go OFF feed once bred. Just keep feeding her, you'll most likely get a bigger clutch because of it. :)

People arent giving you opinions they are giving you advice on what they know to be fact from years of experience. I dont know about you but if my car broke down I dont want a guy that read a book on fixing cars to work on it, I want a guy that has been fixing cars for a long time and has actual real world experience doing so. Also some of the answers you have recieved are from from very experienced breeders, you would be well advised to consider their expertise. I'm not sure why you would think your female is ready after only laying 2 months ago:confusd: Some of the people on this forum are your expert resources. From what Ive learned here on this site if I were to go buy a book on ball pythons it would be like going from reading Nietzsche to reading childrens books. (with the exceptions of a few)

my logic is to let him pair it and experiment with his animals at his own cost that way he can learn on his own because he doesnt want help. if so he would have taken the advice and been done already. if you arent gonna take the advice whats the point of the post?