Question to those having successfully bred two males to one female

I'm hoping to get respones based on experience, or proposed facts, not so much opinion..

Let's say, for sake of argument, I bred a Mojave male and a Pastel Pied male to a normal female.

Eggs hatch and I have mojaves, pastels and normals in the clutch. Why not, a pastave too. Woohoo! lol

Ok, now would you consider just the pastel to be het pied, the pastave, the mojave and/or the normal?

Would the pastels only be het pied, and the mojaves definitely not? (the pastave and normals, possibly)

Would you not consider any of them hets, and consider all of them possible hets?

Very curious if anyone has proven this and knows for sure!

I'm no expert (nor have I ever bred), but I'd like to try to understand this...so...yeah. I'mma give it a shot, on opinion I suppose. And just learn myself. XD

First off, I don't think you could get a Pastave from the batch. The males dna can't mix, correct?

So, secondly, the only ones with hets should be the ones from the pastel pied father. So the pastels, and possible some normals. And those are suppose to be 50% het pieds. Since it's a percentage already, I suppose I'd consider all the normals 50% het pied, and just let others know of the dual male breeding?

You will not get a pastave since you cannot mix male DNA. For example (and for sake of argument), you have a White woman (human). She sleeps with a black man and an Asian man (I'm not trying to be racist....this is just for sake of argument). She gets pregnant. The baby will be either a Black-white mix or an Asian-White mix. The baby can only be fathered by one man. You will never find (in this scenario for example) a Black Asian baby from a White woman.

The same goes with your snakes. The babies from your normal female will be either mojave, pastel het pied, or normals (some het pied, some not het pied). If you get mojave babies, you know for sure that the mojave male sired them and they will NOT be het pied since the pastel pied and the mojave DNA do not mix (think of the Black-Asian example above). If your babies are pastel, they can only be sired by the pastel pied and WILL be het pied since the father was piebald. Now...you will end up with some normals as well. You cannot outwardly tell which male sired it. You could look for het pied markers, but those are not always reliable. Unlike the other person, I would not sell them as 50% het pied. They either are het...or they aren't. But since you don't know for sure, you will need to do the honest thing and sell them as plane jane normals. However, you could say they were possibly sired by the pastel pied and be het pied (or you could just say the father is either a pastel pied or a mojave and not say anything about what they might be het for). Then, the buyer can make the choice to buy a normal and try and prove her out if they wanted to. That saves you later if they don't prove out het pied and the owner comes back pissed off because you sold them a het animal when it really wasn't het.

I hope that made a little bit of sense...

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Let's say, for sake of argument, I bred a Mojave male and a Pastel Pied male to a normal female.

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Eggs hatch and I have mojaves, pastels and normals in the clutch. Why not, a pastave too. Woohoo! lol

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You do realize it is genetically impossible ;)

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Ok, now would you consider just the pastel to be het pied, the pastave, the mojave and/or the normal?

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Obviously not an issue since it is impossible


Now let's say you meant you were breeding a Pastave to a Normal as well as a Pastel pied and answer the question again based on that pairing.

Obviously Mojave and Pastave are no brainer that's what they are, now everything else however, the Pastel as well as Normal looking offsprings I sell them as pastel and normal since at this point there is an uncertainty on whether the Pastave male alone was the sire or both males were sired the clutch.

Yeah no chance at Pastaves in that scenario.

Not a good idea to try to put a codom and recessive male to a codom female. Now if the female was pastel pied then have at it because all offspring no matter who the sire is would be het pied.

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Originally Posted by joebad976

Yeah no chance at Pastaves in that scenario.

Not a good idea to try to put a codom and recessive male to a codom female. Now if the female was pastel pied then have at it because all offspring no matter who the sire is would be het pied.

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X2. Any normals in the clutch could either be sired by the pastel pied or the mojave. You wouldn't be able to say that any of the normals are het for pied.

So all pastels are 100% pied but normals are 50% pied?

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Originally Posted by MorphMaster

So all pastels are 100% pied but normals are 50% pied?

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No, you couldn't even sell them as 50% het Pieds.
You could only make a notation in the ad that it was a double sired clutch and one of the sires was a visual Pied.

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Originally Posted by C&H Exotic Morphs

No, you couldn't even sell them as 50% het Pieds.
You could only make a notation in the ad that it was a double sired clutch and one of the sires was a visual Pied.

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^ This exactly

Really a waste of time and effort IMO

Technically, with that pairing even if you only got pastels and normals you would have to be very careful selling the normals. You cant really guarantee that all the normals are 100% het pied if the female was with another codom. Selling 100% hets that dont prove cant really kill your reputation. Personally, Id stay away from any pairings that would put you in this position.

Thanks for everyones thoughts.. now I ask again, not to seem rude, but who has had experience doing this... the human situation sounds simple, but with balls 2 different fathers have sired clutches MANY times, and there has been genetics from BOTH fathers each time.
That is a fact. Has been done. Many times. Happens alot!

Give you an example.. bought some adult normal females last season. Person said he tried breding to morphs but they didn't take. I immediately put my males on them. One female in question, bred by my spotnose, gave 7 babies... 1 spotnose, 4 normals, and 2 cinnys. Netiher the spotnose or the normal female were cinny. Only reasonable explanation, the previous owner put a cinny on her first.

If you can or cannot get a pastave in this situation, i'm not sure of, because I don't know how these genetics work in BPs.

So to keep it simple if we did get pastels and mojaves, some seem to feel the pastels only would be het pied. not the mojaves. but how can we really know this. the normals, obviously could've come from both males, so they are a crap shoot.

Now to be clear, this is not something i'm planning to do or something i'm trying to figure out how to market and sell.

I was trying to find out from experience, meaning if anyone has done this and proven it out, if crossing two males to a female, one codom, and one codom+recessvie, and we see results from both fathers, how exactly that recessive gene will come into play.

PLEASE, if you have not proven this, PLEASE do not give opinions, because this simply gets way confusing and out of control! I posted here in BP Breeding thinking someone may have had experience doing this and can share their results.

To simplify, if it were a mojave and a pied dad, to a normal, and you got mojaves and normals.. how would you know the pied gene isn't in there as well? Of course only by breeding. THIS is what I want to know. Does anyone know to have proven this out.

Thanks again:)

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Originally Posted by snakehobbyist

You will not get a pastave since you cannot mix male DNA. For example (and for sake of argument), you have a White woman (human). She sleeps with a black man and an Asian man (I'm not trying to be racist....this is just for sake of argument). She gets pregnant. The baby will be either a Black-white mix or an Asian-White mix. The baby can only be fathered by one man. You will never find (in this scenario for example) a Black Asian baby from a White woman.

The same goes with your snakes. The babies from your normal female will be either mojave, pastel het pied, or normals (some het pied, some not het pied). If you get mojave babies, you know for sure that the mojave male sired them and they will NOT be het pied since the pastel pied and the mojave DNA do not mix (think of the Black-Asian example above). If your babies are pastel, they can only be sired by the pastel pied and WILL be het pied since the father was piebald. Now...you will end up with some normals as well. You cannot outwardly tell which male sired it. You could look for het pied markers, but those are not always reliable. Unlike the other person, I would not sell them as 50% het pied. They either are het...or they aren't. But since you don't know for sure, you will need to do the honest thing and sell them as plane jane normals. However, you could say they were possibly sired by the pastel pied and be het pied (or you could just say the father is either a pastel pied or a mojave and not say anything about what they might be het for). Then, the buyer can make the choice to buy a normal and try and prove her out if they wanted to. That saves you later if they don't prove out het pied and the owner comes back pissed off because you sold them a het animal when it really wasn't het.

I hope that made a little bit of sense...

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So this seems like the most straightforward legit answer and pretty much what I was looking for.. if you did get mojaves and pastels, the mojaves would def not be het pied and the pastels would def be het pied. obviously normals are crap shoot.

and the males dna won't mix.. is that just with the pastel and mojave genes? is it different with other morphs, because they do or do not rest on the same allele? or no.. ?

Sorry, but I cant help responding because its very simple genetics, not something that needs to be proved out (we are talking blue + yellow = green simplicity here).

In your mojave/pied x normal = mojaves and normals example non of the mojaves would carry the pied gene. While multiple fathers can sire a clutch, there is only one sire per egg. If you have a mojave, the mojave father sired that egg and since the mojave sire did not carry the pied gene (and so had no pied gene to give), you can be 100% sure that the mojaves are not het pied.

(PS: I am doing a similar cross this season female spotnose het albino bred to both an albino pastel and a pastel butter, so Ive been thinking about this for months)

This past season we had a pastel male and a mojave male breed a normal female. We ended up with 3 pastels, 4 mojaves, and 2 normals. Ended up a pretty good clutch.

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So this seems like the most straightforward legit answer and pretty much what I was looking for.. if you did get mojaves and pastels, the mojaves would def not be het pied and the pastels would def be het pied. obviously normals are crap shoot.

and the males dna won't mix.. is that just with the pastel and mojave genes? is it different with other morphs, because they do or do not rest on the same allele? or no.. ?

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It does not matter if they are on the same allele or not, only one sire fathers each egg. So, the resulting hatchling can ONLY inherit genes that that one male had, no matter what genes other hatchings in the clutch may carry.

Only one sperm can fertilize an egg, it's pretty basic. It's not like the 2 males' little swimmers race and finish in a tie. In the case of a split clutch, still only one sperm from one of the males can fertilize a single egg. Different eggs can be fertilized by different males.

This is pretty much 7th/8th grade science class material.

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Originally Posted by BciJoe

Thanks for everyones thoughts.. now I ask again, not to seem rude, but who has had experience doing this... the human situation sounds simple, but with balls 2 different fathers have sired clutches MANY times, and there has been genetics from BOTH fathers each time.
That is a fact. Has been done. Many times. Happens alot!

Give you an example.. bought some adult normal females last season. Person said he tried breding to morphs but they didn't take. I immediately put my males on them. One female in question, bred by my spotnose, gave 7 babies... 1 spotnose, 4 normals, and 2 cinnys. Netiher the spotnose or the normal female were cinny. Only reasonable explanation, the previous owner put a cinny on her first.

If you can or cannot get a pastave in this situation, i'm not sure of, because I don't know how these genetics work in BPs.

So to keep it simple if we did get pastels and mojaves, some seem to feel the pastels only would be het pied. not the mojaves. but how can we really know this. the normals, obviously could've come from both males, so they are a crap shoot.

Now to be clear, this is not something i'm planning to do or something i'm trying to figure out how to market and sell.

I was trying to find out from experience, meaning if anyone has done this and proven it out, if crossing two males to a female, one codom, and one codom+recessvie, and we see results from both fathers, how exactly that recessive gene will come into play.

PLEASE, if you have not proven this, PLEASE do not give opinions, because this simply gets way confusing and out of control! I posted here in BP Breeding thinking someone may have had experience doing this and can share their results.

To simplify, if it were a mojave and a pied dad, to a normal, and you got mojaves and normals.. how would you know the pied gene isn't in there as well? Of course only by breeding. THIS is what I want to know. Does anyone know to have proven this out.

Thanks again:)

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Well. You can't have a single offspring with DNA from 3 parents (1 mother + 2 fathers). The hatchling has genes from one mother and one father.
If you've taken any sort of Biology course, then you would understand that once an egg is fertilized by a male's sperm, it cannot accept any other sperm.
You can get a double sired clutch because one male fertilized some eggs and the other male fertilized the other eggs. But all of the eggs do not contain genes from both males. Just one male.
Cats can have multisired litters. If you've seen a litter with kittens that look nothing like each other or the mother, that's because they have been fathered by different males.

And in regard to your example about the normal/cinny/spot nose. Yes that can happen. The cinny male fertilized at least 2 eggs and the spotnose fertilized at least 1 egg. You wouldn't be able to tell who sired the normals unless they inherited some genetic look from the parent (i.e reduced pattern or something).

Also females can retain sperm up to a year. So sperm from a previous breeding season could have fertilized eggs from this current season.

Back to Pastaves. You cannot get a pastave from a pastel male, mojave male, and normal female copulation. Males cannot combine their sperm to enter the same egg, nor would the egg accept both sperm. Once the egg is fertilized by one male, it's done accepting any genetic material. It shuts its doors.
The recessive gene will only be in offspring sired by the recessive male. The offspring sired by the mojave male will not carry any pied genes. If there are multiple sires, you cannot truly know which normals have the het gene or not. But you can use the het pied rail road track markers as a guide.

I'm pretty sure not many people have bred a co-dom male and recessive male to the same female. It just gets confusing in telling which normals are hets and which aren't. And it's just not worth it. A het pied female is worth a lot more than a normal female. But at this point, you cannot sell those normals as het pieds simply because some could be sired by mojave.
You just cannot tell 100%. Like I said, you can use the markers as guides, but some normal normals have the markers and some hets don't have them.
All you know is the visuals. The pastels are 100% het pied because the father is the pastel pied. The mojave offspring is just from the mojave father.

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If you can or cannot get a pastave in this situation, i'm not sure of, because I don't know how these genetics work in BPs.

So to keep it simple if we did get pastels and mojaves, some seem to feel the pastels only would be het pied. not the mojaves. but how can we really know this. the normals, obviously could've come from both males, so they are a crap shoot.

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Your first example (with the Pastave) see my answer above is IMPOSSIBLE it's simple genetic an hatchling cannot be the combination of 2 males genes hence no Pastave in the Mojave and Pastel Pied to Normal pairing. Only one male can contribute his genes to 1 hatchling ;), it's not only BP genetic it apply to all genetic.

This means all pastels would be 100% het pied since to have pastels from this pairing the Pastel Pied would have to be the sire of that hatchling.

Now can you have 2 sires absolutely. (Been there done that)

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To simplify, if it were a mojave and a pied dad, to a normal, and you got mojaves and normals.. how would you know the pied gene isn't in there as well? Of course only by breeding. THIS is what I want to know. Does anyone know to have proven this out.

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Now on that question the only thing you know is that You will have Mojaves and Normal looking offsring, which could have been sired by the mojave male or could have been sired by the pied, YOU would not know.

You cannot in good conscience sell an animal for which you do not know who the sire is a an het or even a possible het, this animal should be sold as normal.

You can have clutches with multiple sires but you can not have babies that come out of those eggs that are combos of two of the sires. That's completely impossible..

I bred a leucy (Russo x Lesser) and and Woma, and a Pinstripe, all to a normal female one year.. I ended up with babies of every gene. I had one Lesser, one Russo, two Womas, three Pins, and one normal..

Each father sired at least one baby but there is no way genetically that I would ever have gotten a woma pin, or a lesser pin.. Just can't happen.

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Originally Posted by BciJoe

and the males dna won't mix.. is that just with the pastel and mojave genes? is it different with other morphs, because they do or do not rest on the same allele? or no.. ?

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Male DNA will never mix, no matter morph, no matter what species, no matter if you put all the sperm in the world in a dixie cup and swirled it all around.

Here's a little bit about basic genetics. A female has the chromosomes XX and the male has chromosomes XY. The mother will always donate one X chromosome to her babies and the male can donate either an X or Y chromosome. If he donates an X chromosome, the baby will be female. If he donates the Y chromosome, the baby will be male. Because of this, you will not have a baby who is YY since the mother has no Y chromosome to contribute to the baby. That said, in order to get a baby, you must have one sperm cell that fuses with one egg cell. You cannot have two egg cells (two mothers) fuze or two sperm cells (two fathers) fuze because that is not how fertilization occurs (refer to this diagram for a picture about how a baby is made: http://ridge.icu.ac.jp/biobk/humanlifecyc.jpg ). This process is the same in snakes. You cannot have two males produce a baby. In your example, this basically translates into this: Your mojave male and your pastel pied cannot fuze their sperm together and thus, you cannot have a pastave...ever. One sperm can only meet one egg, so either the mojave sperm fertilize your normal's egg or the pastel pied fertilizes the normal's egg. Because the female has multiple eggs at one time, it is possible to have the mojave fertilize some eggs and the pastel pied to fertilize some eggs. However, they will never fertilize the same egg. Does that make sense?

Thanks again for all the repetitive answers, lol, but honestly I do appreciate all the examples.

I am almost certain that, with Boas, there has been examples where genes from both dads were present in offspring. Almost certain. I would have to look it up again to be sure but I thought I remembered a few instances of this. If not, oh well.. mistake! lol

I'm not challenging your biology classes or simple 7th grade class material, lol, just thought I remembered this, which is one reason why I asked.

Again this was just an example for sake of argument, or to challenge conventional thinking. Not a question of ethics, on how one should sell the offspring, as their is no question there.

You'd be surprised how many times something like this is done... but just not talked about so that it is not left to speculation or criticism... not talking about this specific example, but several like it.

One BP breeder talked about running 17 males through to one female.. obvisouly there were some recessive genes in there, but in those cases, for a bigger breeder, whether it might or might not be het for something is really not an issue, and they wouldn't even mention it when selling.. that's one way people stumble on morphs/combos they weren't expecting.

Thanks again and try to have fun!;)

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Originally Posted by BciJoe

Thanks again for all the repetitive answers, lol, but honestly I do appreciate all the examples.

I am almost certain that, with Boas, there has been examples where genes from both dads were present in offspring. Almost certain. I would have to look it up again to be sure but I thought I remembered a few instances of this. If not, oh well.. mistake! lol

I'm not challenging your biology classes or simple 7th grade class material, lol, just thought I remembered this, which is one reason why I asked.

Again this was just an example for sake of argument, or to challenge conventional thinking. Not a question of ethics, on how one should sell the offspring, as their is no question there.

You'd be surprised how many times something like this is done... but just not talked about so that it is not left to speculation or criticism... not talking about this specific example, but several like it.

One BP breeder talked about running 17 males through to one female.. obvisouly there were some recessive genes in there, but in those cases, for a bigger breeder, whether it might or might not be het for something is really not an issue, and they wouldn't even mention it when selling.. that's one way people stumble on morphs/combos they weren't expecting.

Thanks again and try to have fun!;)

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Well. You were mistaken :gj:. No bigs.

I'm still not really sure what your objective here was :P. Strange things have happened. Unexplainable things. Paradoxes and null phenomenon are 2 that stick out in my mind. Why these things happen, nobody knows. It's a nature thing lollll. Doesn't have to make sense. However, the example you're talking about is just not possible in any way. I'm not really a fan of threads created "for the sake of argument." Once you learn more about genetics (not just ball python genetics), then come back and read your own thread, you'll understand. "Experience" isn't necessary in this case... Most people who breed tend to avoid the breeding situation because of all the reasons mentioned previously.