Humidity Question

I have a ball python and I would like to be taking the proper care for him/her. Right now the snake is living in a 20g long tank. I know I will have to upgrade later or possibly soon. He has a hide, and I will need to get another. I have aspen for substrate, and a decent size water dish for him to drink or go into, but he does not go into the water dish at all. I have also a undertank heater, and will be doing something with that so it is putting out right temp instead of to high or low.

My question right now is about humidity. I see that ball pythons need 50% humidity. I was thinking about purchasing the Zoo Med Repti Fogger and Terraeium Humidifier as well as a hydrometer. I was wondering if people recommend getting this fooger? Also what hydrometer would you recommed? Is the All Living Things circle guage one good?

Last question, doesn't deal with humidity, I just thought about it while typing. Is it bad that he doesn't go in the water dish to submerge him/herself? Also what size tank would be best for the snake in its permanent stage? I was thinking about building one out of wood to make it look nice from the outside as well, but not sure if wood would be best?

I thought about doing this myself because I live in a desert in Colorado. I have very low humidity all the time. But I decided against it. I use a damp towel over the enclosure and mist with a spray bottle as needed. Balls don't normally soak in dishes. If they do normally that is a sign of low humidity or snake mites. Just keep the bowl clean and make sure the little guy has fresh water so he can take a drink or dip as needed.

A humidifier/fogger is overkill for ball pythons unless you live in a desert, and even still it probably isn't necessary.

I would start off by getting a hygrometer. Then seeing how much more humidity you need in the cage. There are many easy/cheap ways to increase humidity in a cage. The all things living dial type (and all the others sold in pet stores) are complete junk and terribly overpriced. Here is a good one:

http://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/B000H69...pd_sim_sbs_k_2

The difference is this one can be calibrated when it needs to be, while the pet store kind will need to be replaced every few months.

A Ball python should have 1 square foot of floor space per foot of snake. So for an adult you want a cage with 4-5 square feet of floor space. height really doesn't matter. Less will make it easier to heat/maintain humidity. I would suggest that you not get another glass tank, but rather a tub or PVC cage. They are much better at maintaining heat and humidity in.

Here is some info on tubs and PVC cages:

Tubs: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...e-Basics-*DUW*

PVC cages: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...With-Pictures!

What are you using to heat your cage? What are you using to measure temperatures?

Check out this thread on cage heating: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...t-Thermometers

I have a similar problem living in AZ, but I wouldn't recommend using the reptifogger for a 20 gallon. I used one on my leopard tortoises when they were babies, which worked great for a huge 6'x6' enclosure (even then it was on a timer and only came on for 2 minutes 3x a day), but even on the lowest setting would be massive overkill for anything smaller than a really big arboreal cage (or amphibians who need a way more humidity than reptiles). I use the spray bottle method like darthkevin. I do not recommend that hydrometer though, analog ones are notoriously unreliable. May people on this site have had success with the acurite brand weather thermometers that give two temperature readings (warm end, cool end) and humidity. I got mine on Amazon for $13. Wood will be okay for building a cage if you use a sealant on it, but make sure it's one that isn't going to give off fumes or leach chemicals. I would vote for melamine if you really want to build your own cage, it's usually available in stores like Lowes or Home Depot.

All of those round analog thermometers are unreliable. Digital with a probe is the only way to go. I wouldn't recommend getting the repti-fogger things. It's an unnecessary investment. They're made for more jungle/rainforest type herps. As far as your "permanent home" for a full grown python, a 40 gallon terrarium seems to be standard for most enthusiasts. Some will say it's too big, but it's only as big to the snake as you let it be. Fill it with all kinds of greenery, trees, leafy garland, hides, and a big water dish, and you're 40 gallon will be a perfect home. Here's an example. This is my 20 gallon long . Almost 50% of the floor space is taken. Still lots of shadows, corners, and hides on the hot and cool side. The tank is big, but the snake never feels over exposed and prone to stress.

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/...ps76f47eb5.jpg

Thanks everyone for the answers. I live in NJ so with that in mind and the other answers you guys gave me I will not purchase the fogger. I will get one of those hydrometers everyone recommend to see what my humidity is, and then post it on here to see what you guys think of it and what should I do.

I keep thinking of more and more question so I figured I will post all on here, if thats a problem I will make a new thread. When discussing hides, your suppose to have 2 right? One on cold and one on hot? How do you know what size of a hide is good for your snake? I got one of those logs cut in half from Petsmart. I got the biggest one because I thought it would need that, but it seems like it maybe to big? Can a hide be too big? Do ball pythons like to climb on anything? Was debating on putting in some type of tree branch thing for it to climb if they like it?

Log hides aren't the best, they don't make the snake feel secure and tend to mold due to the humidity.

Hides need to be snug. BP's want to be able to rouch all of the sides.

This is what you want:

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/...t/21819934.jpg

These hides are the best:

http://www.reptilebasics.com/hide-boxes

Ball pythons are terrestrial snakes, they don't climb

My humidity here in Indiana is around 40-45%... I've tried switching to Cypress mulch and misting daily, but the day/night lights I use for my ambient temps keep it dry. I've even covered 3/4 of the top of my screen top..
I was thinking about giving this a try.. An homemade humidifier

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6Cgx4x0F_g

The only thing is the guy in the video says that this gets his humidity up to 45%.. I'm already there. It most be really dry where he is to be below 40% or so.

Aaron, how do you know what size of hide for your snake?

Do you have a scale? The snake in this picture weighs 200 grams and used the small size hide at the time

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/...t/da98c371.jpg

This picture shows the mini, small and medium size hides from reptile basics

I use small size hides for hatchlings through 350-400 gram BP's (up to 6 months old more or less)

Mediums will last a snake through 1200 grams.

I will have to weight my snake out and then get back to you on that. Thank you so much!

Last question for you Aaron, that link you sent me on amazon for the hydrometer, doesn't show me what it looks like or anything, just says price. Could you tell me what you typed into the search on amazon?

I'm gonna try and build one of those DIY humidifiers. I can do it pretty cheap. I think I'll run 2 tubes into my terrarium under the bark and see how that goes. My humidity is steady at 40%, hopefully I can get it up closer to 60% and not have to mist the tank anymore.

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Originally Posted by EWC88

I will have to weight my snake out and then get back to you on that. Thank you so much!

Last question for you Aaron, that link you sent me on amazon for the hydrometer, doesn't show me what it looks like or anything, just says price. Could you tell me what you typed into the search on amazon?

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Try this link: http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B000...w_bottom_links

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Originally Posted by TheSnakeGuy

I'm gonna try and build one of those DIY humidifiers. I can do it pretty cheap. I think I'll run 2 tubes into my terrarium under the bark and see how that goes. My humidity is steady at 40%, hopefully I can get it up closer to 60% and not have to mist the tank anymore.

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I only bought the air pump with a single outlet.. Our BP is still small and in a 10 gallon tank.. I just went to Walmart tonight to get the stuff, actually I just Epoxy'd the tubes to the water jug with 5 Min. Epoxy .. I'm going to give them awhile to cure and probably try it out.. I spent right at $20, we'll see what happens

Hey let me know what your humidity level is once you get that working. I've already got the same water jug used in the video. The other stuff I can get real easy. Especially being a Petsmart employee.

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Originally Posted by TheSnakeGuy

Hey let me know what your humidity level is once you get that working. I've already got the same water jug used in the video. The other stuff I can get real easy. Especially being a Petsmart employee.

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I think it's been hooked up about an hour now and the humidity only went up one percent.. Temp is still steady at 81 and humidity is now 44%.... Not looking to good Yet?

I hope you are still monitoring this thread. I was thinking about getting the repti-fogger as well, but you suggest there are better/cheaper ways to increase humidity. I have a digital hygo on the way, to get a more accurate reading. However, what are those better/cheaper ways to increase humidity?

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Originally Posted by yellowbelly76

I hope you are still monitoring this thread. I was thinking about getting the repti-fogger as well, but you suggest there are better/cheaper ways to increase humidity. I have a digital hygo on the way, to get a more accurate reading. However, what are those better/cheaper ways to increase humidity?

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Changing heat sources

Changing cage types

Covering the screen top of a class cage

Changing substrate

Adding a humid hide to the cage

Getting a larger water dish (more surface area)

I'm in the process of covering my 20 long screen top with 0.093" acrylic sheeting. Going to be sealing it in and completely covering sheet with HVAC foil tape. Still undecided how much of actual screen I should leave uncovered for secondary heat source and/or ventilation. Right now, our house temp. is 70* w/35-40% humidity. Also planning on insulating 3 sides with 1/8" neoprene. "Frankentank", I call it! :D

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...arium-Solution

This works super well as well as my PVC enclosures fast and cheap alternative. REMEMBER snakes need air. The open top design is not a good venting design the basic nature of the way air flows so be careful to leave BOTH ends with open bits and block the centre as this will lessen the dead spot the turned tank will vent better due to high and low air holes.


RH comes from water mass bowls and substrate control this, it should NEVER come from exhaled breath of the snake this is just begging trouble. I like to use the one hour guide if the substrate is dry and water bowl is removed the RH should take one hour or less to match the room. If it does not the ventilation is not enough.

I would avoid the fogger they need to be cleaned every day to keep from introducing bacteria into the system or allowed to dry between use. Regular cleanings damages the vibrating tympanum and it in turn needs to be changed. It adds up to a bigger pain than daily misting.

When I used an open top tank I had a very simple method, I was using coco coir and placed tupperware sandwich container in the bottom of the cool side, filled the substrate into the tank banked 3 inches on the cool side and 1/8 on the warm. It formed a small hill, I then when the RH dropped I just pushed my finger to make a hole to the container buried under the substrate and filled it with water (80º water). This would be absorbed by the substrate (under the top layer) and evaporation would take over it is too much water to evaporate in a few hours so it lasted me in the winter (30%RH room) for 4-7 days.

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Originally Posted by TheSnakeGuy

All of those round analog thermometers are unreliable. Digital with a probe is the only way to go. ...

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/...ps76f47eb5.jpg

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I too recommend the exact hygrometer. I calibrate instruments as part of my job. Yes there are digital units that have higher accuracy than the posted analogue. They are generally called PSYCHROMETERS and are fragile and hand held, The cheap ones that have an accuracy of 2-6%RH generally run in the 200$ range better ones with a 1% accuracy are in the 500$ range. They are fussy and frail (dropping it is often the end of the unit) I would not suggest them ever. The cheap digital hygrometers are cheap. The use a micro resistance to detect the change in RH and most common ones are 5-10% accuracy. To me 10% up or down from correct seems a bit much some have even worse at 20% which is about the same as licking your finger and timing the time it takes to dry.

The little analogue dial one posted has a METAL face card. This is the issue with the junk ones the card warps in humid conditions and jams the needles swing. The unit posted also has a calibration screw. I have own 25 of these units and have owned 30 digital units the best digital unit is 3% RH off the worst is 55% off (low it got peed on and that is all she wrote.) The worst of the analogue was 3% and I then corrected it. I test them every 6 months with a salt test and adjust them as needed they almost always are spot on the test which is only accurate to 1% so all average 1% error.

So 10$ analogue buys you 1% accuracy, and 500$ buys you a digital unit with 1% accuracy. I tend to feel that robust and cheap beats fragile and expensive. Don't believe me test them your self. You can do a salt test (google) on the analogue and buy a test kit for the digital (salt tests are hard on them digital are fragile and cannot be dusty dirty or damaged)

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

Changing heat sources

Changing cage types

Covering the screen top of a class cage

Changing substrate

Adding a humid hide to the cage

Getting a larger water dish (more surface area)

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This humidity issue is kicking my butt. It seems drop to about 42% +/-. I mist, but that doesn't seem to last very long (maybe I am not misting enough), and therefore, I am misting often. When I mist, it typically hits about 70% on the hygro, but within a few hours, is back down again.

I have most of the top covered, half with a thick piece of plexi-glass under the screen, and last night I put foil and foil tape over most of the other half (left an opening where the heat lamp is). I am not sure what you mean by a "humid hide". I have to small hide boxes that I got from reptile basics. I have not replaced the water dish with a larger one yet, but I will try that tonight. I am trying to accomplish all of this without spending a fortune, so I don't think a different cage is possible at this point. The substrate will be the next step, if a larger water dish doesn't have an affect on the humidity. I would cover the entire top with plexi, but the heat lamp caused it to warp a little, and if the UTH doesn't affect ambient temps in the tank, then I need to continue to use the lamp.

I've been fighting this issue for about a week now...how much more can my snake handle before I run into health problems? He didn't accepts his first meal with me yesterday. Not sure what that was about...using a separate feeding bin, mouse was practically dead, etc. I just want my BP to be happy and healthy.

Go to Home Depot and buy natural sea sponges. They are in the paint aisle.

Rinse the sponge out completely, spray it with a disinfectant like chlorhexadine. Let it sit for a bit and rinse it out again.

Wet it but don't squeeze out the water. Just let it drip out and pop it in a water bowl. Put the sponge/bowl in the tank. Place a piece of cardboard on top of the tank screen.

Repeat every few days. Leave more water in the sponge during sheds.

Good luck.

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Originally Posted by JohnNJ

Go to Home Depot and buy natural sea sponges. They are in the paint aisle.

Rinse the sponge out completely, spray it with a disinfectant like chlorhexadine. Let it sit for a bit and rinse it out again.

Wet it but don't squeeze out the water. Just let it drip out and pop it in a water bowl. Put the sponge/bowl in the tank. Place a piece of cardboard on top of the tank screen.

Repeat every few days. Leave more water in the sponge during sheds.

Good luck.

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I presume this is in addition the existing water bowl, and not putting the sponge in the normal water bowl? Regarding the cardboard...should it cover the entire top of the tank screen (minus the heat lamp area of course)?

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Originally Posted by yellowbelly76

I presume this is in addition the existing water bowl, and not putting the sponge in the normal water bowl? Regarding the cardboard...should it cover the entire top of the tank screen (minus the heat lamp area of course)?

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Your presumption is correct. Use a different bowl for the sponge.

Base the coverage of the top screen on your temp and humidity reading. Start with it covered and move from there. If the humidity reads correctly but the temp gets too high, use a lower wattage bulb. You want to use the least amount of cardboard you can to achieve the desired results. You want to get fresh air in the tank too.

Not sure where you are but this is something I did in the winter and during sheds. The humidity was ok in the summer.

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Originally Posted by JohnNJ

Your presumption is correct. Use a different bowl for the sponge.

Base the coverage of the top screen on your temp and humidity reading. Start with it covered and move from there. If the humidity reads correctly but the temp gets too high, use a lower wattage bulb. You want to use the least amount of cardboard you can to achieve the desired results. You want to get fresh air in the tank too.

Not sure where you are but this is something I did in the winter and during sheds. The humidity was ok in the summer.

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I'm in PA, so it is the winter months, and the air is much drier than it would be in the summer. I may not have such humidity problems come the summer months. However, I don't think my bp will be tolerate low humidity for that long. That's why I am trying so much to get it right, and get it quickly. I'll look at different substrate next. I am using carpet right now cause I thought it would be easier to maintain, and change out at cleanings. However, someone suggested problems with mildew/mold when using carpet, and cypress would hold humidity better.

Could placing his normal water bowl closer to where the UTH is help with humidity? The bowl is in the center of the tank, and the UTH on the right side, bottom. I know that part of the problem is the heat lamp, which everyone suggest will eat up humidity. However, with the lamp, I am only getting the cool side to 77 degrees. If I get rid of the lamp, I have no idea how low it will drop.

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Originally Posted by yellowbelly76

I presume this is in addition the existing water bowl, and not putting the sponge in the normal water bowl? Regarding the cardboard...should it cover the entire top of the tank screen (minus the heat lamp area of course)?

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NO! humidity warmth and low air flow grow bacteria and fungi both can lead to RI. This is basically making what in human terms is 'sick building syndrome' blocking air flow is a poor unsafe way to increase humidity.

Misting is useless it is not enough water for too short a time. Clearly you know this already. I have made a suggestion why not try it out? It is safer than using stagnation to increase the humidy.

Perhaps you should read the sticky on RI you are walking down the 'petri dish' road.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ons-The-Basics

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

NO! humidity warmth and low air flow grow bacteria and fungi both can lead to RI. This is basically making what in human terms is 'sick building syndrome' blocking air flow is a poor unsafe way to increase humidity.

Misting is useless it is not enough water for too short a time. Clearly you know this already. I have made a suggestion why not try it out? It is safer than using stagnation to increase the humidy.

Perhaps you should read the sticky on RI you are walking down the 'petri dish' road.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ons-The-Basics

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I am willing to try many things that have been suggested. I just wanted to clarify, before I do something wrong. I am a new bp owner, and I will have many questions as I try to resolve issues that I have.

Regarding your suggestion, it's not a matter of not wanting to try it. I just wanted to have a series of things that I could attempt. Due to space availability in the house, laying the tank on its side isn't something that I can do right now. The tank sits on a stand that was build for it, and can only go on the one way. Once I am ready to upgrade his home, as he gets bigger, I will look into other options. For now, I have to make what I have work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...arium-Solution


When I used an open top tank I had a very simple method, I was using coco coir and placed tupperware sandwich container in the bottom of the cool side, filled the substrate into the tank banked 3 inches on the cool side and 1/8 on the warm. It formed a small hill, I then when the RH dropped I just pushed my finger to make a hole to the container buried under the substrate and filled it with water (80º water). This would be absorbed by the substrate (under the top layer) and evaporation would take over it is too much water to evaporate in a few hours so it lasted me in the winter (30%RH room) for 4-7 days.

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Regarding your use of coco in your open top tank...did you buy the brick, and then get it wet to break it apart and spread in your tank? Also, you would just fill the hole from your finger with the warm water, versus trying to fill the entire container under the coco? Your 3 inches on the cool side was so that the sandwich container was just covered by coco, correct?

I got home for work, and the temps were 79.2 and 91.7 with 43% humidity. I tried the wet towel again, spreading it out more over the open area. Now getting 79.3 and 91.9 with 52%. I'm going to try to move the water bowl more over the spot where the UTH is, and see what that does. I'll keep trying different things, and if needed, I'll get a diff substrate on Friday when I am off work.