black bp combos

I know the super cinnamon is all black but are there other combos that make a cleaner, darker all black Hp??

Black pastel x black pastel

Black axanthic isn't a straight black snake, but is awesome as well.

Do you know if there any common deformities or unflattering traits in the super black pastels or super cinnamons?

they both have the possibility to produce offspring with the duck bill.

Could also do black pastel x cinny. I think the super blacks and super cinny sometimes get kinks

kinking and duck bills are two of the main issues when breeding for super blacks or super cinny's.
Super cinny's tend to be more brown than black especially as adults.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

kinking and duck bills are two of the main issues when breeding for super blacks or super cinny's.
Super cinny's tend to be more brown than black especially as adults.

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This^

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My goal as far as these colors go, I'm shooting for super blacks or super pewters. Got a Black pewter female right now. Super Black Pewter Fire would be awesome.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

kinking and duck bills are two of the main issues when breeding for super blacks or super cinny's.
Super cinny's tend to be more brown than black especially as adults.

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X3

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What exactly is a "duck bill" ? Picture?

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Originally Posted by BWyant

What exactly is a "duck bill" ? Picture?

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It is a genetic deformity that messes up the mouth of the snake. Most of the time it isn't a huge problem, but it should be avoided none the less.

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/...psbe5e544b.jpg

Photo credit goes to Ralph Davis

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Originally Posted by BWyant

What exactly is a "duck bill" ? Picture?

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They have deformed faces where their snouts look like duck bills. Sorry, I have no pictures myself.

Edit:Aaron beat me!!
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A friend of mine hatched a Super Cinny with a cleft duck bill and a small kink. It failed to eat and didn't survive.

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I have first hand experience with what can happen when breeding for super cinnamons and it was covered by The Reptile Report: http://thereptilereport.com/super-ci...eason-why-not/

http://thereptilereport.com/assets/r...-TJ_Burton.jpg

You can get variations in head/skull deformities including duckbills, mishaped heads, cleft jaws etc.
You can get severe and minor kinking of the spine etc.
You can get eye issues (usually stemming from skull deformity)

Of 5 supers produced in an 8 egg clutch, only 1 came out flawless. 2 were culled due to extreme deformity, and 2 were given away to friends as pets due to being completely unbreedable, but in survivable shape.

Super black pastels and black pastel cinnamons have also run into the same complications according to other breeders, although it hasn't been well documented and the frequency of these complications isn't known.

Taken from my post on reptilescanada.com

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It is important to mention:
- Incubation was at the standard 88-89.F
- Parents are unrelated, from different lines originating from seperate breeders
- There was a minor humidity issue that was resolved early on during incubation
- This was my first attempt at Super Cinnamons

Well,

Unfortunately it looks like I may only have (at most) 1 super cinnamon of the 5 that will be in good enough condition to sell or trade. Two were culled almost immediately following their attempt at exiting the egg (pictures below) and two more are not in the best condition. I have a nice looking paradox with a minor spinal kink, another with an eye that is bulged, and only one seems to be in good condition (although it is still partially in the egg, so that may not be the case). The two Cinnamon and single Normal offspring look absolutely healthy. Incubation was at 89.9F and despite a slight humidity issue that was corrected, completely normal.

Suffice it to say, this has been a heartbreaking season for me. This clutch was my most anticipated, and unfortunately, I was relying on this clutch to financially support further expansion through trades/sales etc. Kind of feels like being held back a grade, knowing that I won't be where I hoped to for next season. Live and learn!

That being said I wanted to let everyone know the very real possibility of defects/deformations that comes along with breeding super cinnamons - I will tell you now that this is the last Cinnamon to Cinnamon pairing I will EVER attempt. If you wondered why there aren't more super cinnamons out there, this is more than likely the answer.

TJ

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Originally Posted by TJ_Burton

I have first hand experience with what can happen when breeding for super cinnamons and it was covered by The Reptile Report: http://thereptilereport.com/super-ci...eason-why-not/

http://thereptilereport.com/assets/r...-TJ_Burton.jpg

You can get variations in head/skull deformities including duckbills, mishaped heads, cleft jaws etc.
You can get severe and minor kinking of the spine etc.
You can get eye issues (usually stemming from skull deformity)

Of 5 supers produced in an 8 egg clutch, only 1 came out flawless. 2 were culled due to extreme deformity, and 2 were given away to friends as pets due to being completely unbreedable, but in survivable shape.

Super black pastels and black pastel cinnamons have also run into the same complications according to other breeders, although it hasn't been well documented and the frequency of these complications isn't known.

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I was wondering if you could share your experience on this thread: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ct+documentary
I started it wanting to document such complication and defects.
Thank you. :)

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

It is a genetic deformity that messes up the mouth of the snake. Most of the time it isn't a huge problem, but it should be avoided none the less.

http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/...psbe5e544b.jpg

Photo credit goes to Ralph Davis

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What do you mean by "avoided"?

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

What do you mean by "avoided"?

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I think he means that you shouldn't breed for super cinny's to avoid the risk, since it's common.

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Originally Posted by WarriorPrincess90

I think he means that you shouldn't breed for super cinny's to avoid the risk, since it's common.

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If thats the case, then i disagree, HARD.

There is also the Suma (super Mahogany) though it is a lot more expensive than a black pastel or a cinny

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/suma/

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

If thats the case, then i disagree, HARD.

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If you threw 7 out of 8 supers in one season and only 1 come out like it should, would you change your mind, just curious why the HARD disagreement?

We are probably going to shoot black pastel pos het ghost X cinny pewter this coming season, If I have to put down a bunch of poorly formed babies I will be sad and you can bet it will be my last attempt.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

If you threw 7 out of 8 supers in one season and only 1 come out like it should, would you change your mind, just curious why the HARD disagreement?

We are probably going to shoot black pastel pos het ghost X cinny pewter this coming season, If I have to put down a bunch of poorly formed babies I will be sad and you can bet it will be my last attempt.

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Spiders wobble yet people still breed them. EVERY spider and spider combo has the chance to develop a neurological disorder in their lifetime yet they remain one of the most popular morphs.

I hope i hit a super cinny this year. If i hatch out badly kinked ones i realize i may have to cull them. Im fine with that personally. I really dont think its nearly as huge of a problem or as common as people make it out to be. How many have you hatched total and how many were kinked? Im not saying your lying or anything stupid, its just that i know a local breeder to me whose hatched out a bunch of them (idk the exact number) and he said for him at least, it hasnt been a huge problem. Is it possible you just had bad luck or something?

Also i didnt mean the HARD thing to be taken as like fighting words or something lol. If i hatched out that many then id be happy i had one good one and be sad that i had to cull the other ones. It wouldnt stop me from still breeding for supers in the future.

Am I mistaken or did I read that there is a black pastel line that was line bred for no duck-billing? I thought I saw that in a tthread about black pastels on here. If that is the case, then duck billing could be avoided via specific breeding. Though I'm not sure that the duck billing issue is linked to the kinking / clefting etc deformation.

The suma is hot, I hope to have some mahogany in my collection one day (well in the future lol)

Yeah, are you really sure that wasn't just an incubation issue? With kinking, facial deformities, and eye deformities, it sounds the same as what you see with incubation temperature problems.

I've personally only ever heard of duckbilling occurring with the super cinnies/black pastels on a regular basis, and from looking at it, I can't really see what the issue is. It doesn't look like it causes the snake issues, and it's kind of cute.

The thread there mentions it happens more often, though. But even there in a thread on issues with morphs, you have someone who thinks womas don't wobble, and we know that they do.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Yeah, are you really sure that wasn't just an incubation issue? With kinking, facial deformities, and eye deformities, it sounds the same as what you see with incubation temperature problems.

I've personally only ever heard of duckbilling occurring with the super cinnies/black pastels on a regular basis, and from looking at it, I can't really see what the issue is. It doesn't look like it causes the snake issues, and it's kind of cute.

The thread there mentions it happens more often, though. But even there in a thread on issues with morphs, you have someone who thinks womas don't wobble, and we know that they do.

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I agree, I woudnt hesitate to breed super blacks....

As far as people thinking womas dont wobble, several people will argue about champagne wobbling also...Really cracks me up when people tell me they dont want my spider combos because of wobble, but they go bragging about their champagne stuff

Yeah, Super cinnys are brown, super black pastels are black, and the black pastel x cinnys are in between. I would think the darkest BP one could get would be a black axanthic super black pastel BP. But, of course, those don't exist yet and probably wont for at least a few years :P