Combo to make the whitest cleanest Leucistics?

So I am thinking about buying a pair of balls to make some lucys. However I have seen a lot of dirty BELs around, like with faded pattern showing through or with yellowish tinge. I want to make pure white, blue eyed Leucistics. I was thinking of doing either a Lesser x Lesser or Mojave x Mojave... would either pairing make me clean BELs, would the cleaner lesser or Mojave effect how the BELs turned out? I think at least right now the Russo hets are over my head, but what would make the whitest luycs? Or a combination of maybe a Lesser and a Mojave or how about throwing a butter in there? There are a lot of locals selling Mojaves around here so that would really be the easiest/cheapest I just wanted opinions on how to make the best.

All super Mojaves have a gray head. They are not a very clean white BEL. Super Lessers and Super Butters are pretty white, but tend to have bug eyes.


I've heard that white diamonds are one of the more pure white lucys out there. Cheapest way to make a BEL is with het. Russos or a pair of Mojaves. But like I said, Super Mojave BELs aren't clean.

Myself personally is going for lesser mojaves.

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IMO lesser x mojo. i have some cooking now. fingers crossed

I'm a big fan of the het Russo x Mojave. They look great every time.

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Thanks for the info one why some of the BELs have grey heads Nikki. Thanks for all the opinions guys I am either going to go with Mojave x Lesser or Mojave x Russo.

I will also chime in here with a vote for Het Russo x Mojave ! I saw a white diamond at the whiteplains show... so clean!



Collection
0.1 Cinnamon Spider "Cinnabun"
1.0 Mojave Enchi "Mochiko"
0.1 Mystic "Misty"

I believe the super lessers have better blue eyes then the rest.

White Diamonds > Lesser x Mojave > Mojave x Het Russo > Super Lesser / Butter > Super Mojave

Just my thoughts. I plan to just buy a WD pure female, and make my own via Lesser x Mojave.

Lesser/Butter Lucy
http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/a...y/100_7370.jpg

As much as I like the clean pure white looks of the super Lesser/Butter I won't do the breeding again...

Actually, I think Lesser pieds make the cleanest white snakes. I know that Ralph produced one with zero pattern. You'ld need to put more time into the project, but I think it would be worth it.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

Lesser/Butter Lucy
[IMG]http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae164/snakesRkewl/Snake%20Forums%20Snakes%20Only/100_7370.jpg[IMG]

As much as I like the clean pure white looks of the super Lesser/Butter I won't do the breeding again...

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Why is that?

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Originally Posted by kaorte

why is that?

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x2

x3!

and can anyone elaborate on Lesser Pieds? Is that Lesser x Pied, or like a BEL that's also Pied? (Because I know Pied is recessive...) Just curious!

x4!
Any secret we are not aware of?

Yeah, is that lesser/butter bug-eyed? It looked pretty normal.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Actually, I think Lesser pieds make the cleanest white snakes. I know that Ralph produced one with zero pattern. You'ld need to put more time into the project, but I think it would be worth it.

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Yeah, but pied always have black eyes. You won't get blue eyes out of a lesser pied.

Maybe it's just me, but I would never do a lesser butter/butter butter/lesser lesser combo because I don't want bug eyed babies.....

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Originally Posted by loonunit

Yeah, is that lesser/butter bug-eyed? It looked pretty normal.


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Those are normal eyes. Bug eyes are huge and almost comical looking. Kind of bulgy...

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Originally Posted by Pickenprod

x3!

and can anyone elaborate on Lesser Pieds? Is that Lesser x Pied, or like a BEL that's also Pied? (Because I know Pied is recessive...) Just curious!

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Its exactly what it says it is. A lesser visual pied (or a lesser that is also pied). Pied is recessive, but recessives have a visual homozygous form. Non visual recessives are hets. It takes two hets of the same gene to make a visual recessive. So if you breed a lesser het. Pied to another het pied or a visual pied, you can get lesser pied babies. Lesser x pied will just produce lesser het pieds and normal het pieds. So normals and lessers that carry the pied gene, but look like regular lessers and regular normals.

Many pied combos look very different than regular pieds. For example, the enchi pied is almost all pattern and no white. The spider pied is an all white snake that may or may not have pattern on its head. The lesser pied is not a Leucistic, but still an all white snake. The black pastel pied is a high white snake with black markings.. etc etc

I hope that makes sense...


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I think it's funny, in real life I have never seen a bugged eye lesser BEL, nor have I ever seen a anything close to a pure white, white diamond. Also not all lesser pieds are pure white http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...piedlesser.jpg

from everything I've seen your best chance at the whitest BEL is still a lesser/butter x lesser/butter, but there is a small chance for bug eyes
then russo x lesser/butter, the one I saw was not as bright as the lesser/butter x lesser/butter, but still nice. If I was dead set on avoiding bug eyes, I would personally try this pairing
then mojave x lesser/butter, but I have seen a few yellow out
then I don't know how often white diamonds are pure white, but I've seen pictures online so apparently it happens, I have yet to see it in real life tho.
and super mojaves imo aren't really worth mentioning if your looking for pure white.

ive never seen a mojave x russo in person so I can't comment on that one.

I'll probably end up doing a lesser x lesser or a mojo x lesser. :gj:

Tbh in real life ive never seen bug eyed supers lessers/butters. I would have no problem doing the pairing just like ill have no problem pairing my cinnamons this year. Am i aware of the possible genetic birth defects the babies could have? Sure am. But im also aware of how to handle the situation. If a couple are both carriers for a disease does that mean they dont have a baby? Hell no, they do anyways. Its just that if they have an unhealthy baby human doctors are able to provide muchhh more healthcare and meds to it than a vet would be to a baby bp. The practice of veterinary medicine just hasnt evolved that far yet for snakes. :)

I would think Jerry does not want to do a butter/lesser BEL again bc when you breed it how do you sell the combos offspring? Imo, butters and lessers are different lines of the same morph. But there are alot of other people out there who think otherwise. Even if someone doesnt think theyre different they would probably be hesistant to buy it bc then any offspring they produce nay be difficult to sell to buyers.

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Originally Posted by Pickenprod

x3!

and can anyone elaborate on Lesser Pieds? Is that Lesser x Pied, or like a BEL that's also Pied? (Because I know Pied is recessive...) Just curious!

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It's just lesser (not BEL) and pied. piebalds when mixed with any of the BEL complex hets have shown a greatly reduced pattern, ofter just a spot or two. Mojave pieds are mostly piebald white with a little color on the head, I know Vin Russo produced what he calls a pinto pied by using his het white diamonds mixed with pied, it has a colored head and a small spot on the body. It appears that the lighter the BEL complex animal the more reduced the pattern which is probably why the one Ralph produced using a lesser has no color at all.

Good point about the black eyes though, I wonder if a true piebald leucistic would have blue eyes or black eyes?

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Originally Posted by MarkS

It's just lesser (not BEL) and pied. piebalds when mixed with any of the BEL complex hets have shown a greatly reduced pattern, ofter just a spot or two. Mojave pieds are mostly piebald white with a little color on the head, I know Vin Russo produced what he calls a pinto pied by using his het white diamonds mixed with pied, it has a colored head and a small spot on the body. It appears that the lighter the BEL complex animal the more reduced the pattern which is probably why the one Ralph produced using a lesser has no color at all.

Good point about the black eyes though, I wonder if a true piebald leucistic would have blue eyes or black eyes?

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CORRECTION: That was Roussis Reptiles that made the pinto pied using the het white diamonds, not Russo. Sorry, my mistake.

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Originally Posted by rafacacho

x4!
Any secret we are not aware of?

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From what I can tell you from our clutch, they just have eye issues.
There was one female in the clutch that we are almost positive is blind.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Actually, I think Lesser pieds make the cleanest white snakes. I know that Ralph produced one with zero pattern. You'ld need to put more time into the project, but I think it would be worth it.

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You can't get whiter than the super lesser/butter we produced, there's not one bit of color or pattern anywhere.
I agree a lesser pied is a much healthier breeding and a more powerful snake if you like pied projects.

I don't think i've seen it suggested yet, not sure why... Fire x Fire BEL's take the cake for me. if you check out mike wilbanks site he has some good examples of super fires. One really cool thing about them is I THINK they black/red eyes from the pictures i've seen. Also I just think that when they do come out with any kind of coloration or patterning on them it is the best looking for a lucy because they tend to be high orange instead of yellows/greys. I'd take black/red eyes over blue eyes any day.

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Originally Posted by Ryan Chin

I don't think i've seen it suggested yet, not sure why... Fire x Fire BEL's take the cake for me. if you check out mike wilbanks site he has some good examples of super fires. One really cool thing about them is I THINK they black/red eyes from the pictures i've seen. Also I just think that when they do come out with any kind of coloration or patterning on them it is the best looking for a lucy because they tend to be high orange instead of yellows/greys. I'd take black/red eyes over blue eyes any day.

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But the thing about Super Fires or BlackELs is that they're not always a pure white. The OP is asking for an all white snake with no markings. Super Fires can have bright yellow patches on them. I personally prefer more yellow on a Super Fire, but its still not the pure white snake the OP wants.


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Originally Posted by satomi325

But the thing about Super Fires or BlackELs is that they're not always a pure white. The OP is asking for an all white snake with no markings. Super Fires can have bright yellow patches on them. I personally prefer more yellow on a Super Fire, but its still not the pure white snake the OP wants.


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I know but all the lucy snakes I've seen regardless of morph (fires, lessers, butters, russos, mojaves) can produce pure white snake as well as semi patterned snakes, it all depends on the specimen. You can find patches of patterning, high yellow dorsal striping, greys, purples, blues etc in every lucy form. I think it's along the same lines of pieds being able to produce any range of low-hi white pieds in their offspring regardless of their own patterning.

Also I did notice in another thread that I can not find anymore you were going to the reptile convention here in Sac at the end of the month and go to UCD? What do you study there, my girlfriend is a student there.

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Originally Posted by Ryan Chin

Also I did notice in another thread that I can not find anymore you were going to the reptile convention here in Sac at the end of the month and go to UCD? What do you study there, my girlfriend is a student there.

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Yeah. I attend UCD.
Animal and Wildlife Biology.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Yeah. I attend UCD.
Animal and Wildlife Biology.

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Awesome, good to know there'll be some cool people at the expo this year..it's actually my first time going and I've lived here all my life.

What kind of ball pythons are you working with?

Het Russo X Het Russo = White Diamond = the whitest BEL hands down.

Never seen any bug eyed super Lessers or super Butters.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Het Russo X Het Russo = White Diamond = the whitest BEL hands down.

Never seen any bug eyed super Lessers or super Butters.

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Did you just see that ad on kingsnake also? It's a beauty no doubt!

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Het Russo X Het Russo = White Diamond = the whitest BEL hands down.

Never seen any bug eyed super Lessers or super Butters.

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http://fire-ballreptiles.com/images/...terfemale1.JPG

There is several BEL combo's that make pure white lucy's, I'm not sure why people consider one whiter than another when they are pure white?

You can get clean whites from fire x fire, but you also have a shot of getting some yellow in there as well.


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The cleanest Leucistics so far are Super Lemonbacks! Every one of them that has hatched so far is pure Pied white in color! I hope to follow that in about a month when my clutch of them hatches!

What's the difference from a white diamond and a bel?

I have a mojave/lesser hes more of an off white

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Het Russo X Het Russo = White Diamond = the whitest BEL hands down.

Never seen any bug eyed super Lessers or super Butters.

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this is why is disagree http://nicebalz.com/white-diamond-ball-python, every single one at the tinley show I saw in the last 2 years looked like that or even more yellow.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

There is several BEL combo's that make pure white lucy's, I'm not sure why people consider one whiter than another when they are pure white?

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white comes in many different shades and some of them fade to off white or yellow out.

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Originally Posted by Albey

The cleanest Leucistics so far are Super Lemonbacks! Every one of them that has hatched so far is pure Pied white in color! I hope to follow that in about a month when my clutch of them hatches!

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I would love to see one in real life, but in pictures.... my god are they awesome. good luck!

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Originally Posted by Tye Hicks

What's the difference from a white diamond and a bel?

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white diamond is a super het russo. BEL is a general umbrella term for anything with blues eyes and mostly white. white diamond is a BEL.