Let's talk about using NIX for mites.

Ok, so my local reptile show was last Sunday. And I got into a lively debate with a fellow breeder over mite treatments. I had grumped a bit good naturedly about the difficulty in getting Provent a Mite, and how I wished someone who attended my local shows would become a distributor to make getting it easier. He seemed genuinely shocked I still use PAM. According to him, almost all bigger breeders use NIX to treat mites. He claimed it works even better than PAM, is easy to get, and inexpensive. I was shocked he would risk using something designed for people to treat his snakes.

He told me he'd used it for years with no ill effects, and that he never had problems with mites. He treats regularly as a preventative measure. He is a well respected breeder out of Kentucky, and I don't think he'd lie to me. But something just didn't sit right with me. In the end he certainly didn't convince me to use NIX, and I did not convince him to use PAM.

Now, I am a skeptical person. By nature I am stubborn and set in my ways, especially when it comes to the health of my snakes. But I am also a curious person. He seemed to believe most all big and well respected breeders use NIX, and was surprised I did not. So now here I am, the place I trust most when it comes to questions about my snakes. So let's talk.

Do you use NIX to treat snake mites? If so, how long have you used it? What strength do you use? Have you ever noticed anything that might lead you to believe it is harmful? Do you use it as a preventative measure, or have you successfully treated an infestation with it? If so, how long did it take? Meaning how many times did you need to treat and how often to get rid of the mites?

Now, fellow PAM users like myself, I really don't want to turn this into an "I'm right an you are wrong" debate thread. I have no plans whatsoever to use NIX, but as I said I am curious. So let's try and keep the responses to those who use NIX or did in the past, pretty please?

Gale

It's entirely possible that you're paying for the testing done on reptiles to prove that it's safe when you buy PAM, rather than a formula that is uniquely suited to them.

One could make the argument that if enough big breeders have used NIX for long enough without any ill effects to their animals, they may have actually done MORE scientific testing of the NIX product on reptiles than the manufacturers of PAM did on their product. You'd have to assume that if it had any ill effect someone would notice, and if it caused some kind of harm to the snake that isn't immediately obvious, the snake would at least display some kind of signs of stress.

One would also be making that argument unscientifically and speculatively, hence why you pay for whatever certified testing process the PAM creators used to justify their claim of proven safety.

I use PAM, but this isn't the first time I've heard of NIX recommended to someone for mites. I don't have any personal experience with NIX, though.

I use PAM, and wouldn't risk using NIX on my collection. I have heard it works basically the same way, but that's not enough proof for me to be comfortable using it. Here is an awesome thread tha I saw Dr Del link to in an older thread that really made up my mind about being cheap when it comes to mites...

Can it be used, is it being used, should anyone use it, does it work?

It is used by many people including large breeders and it works, I guess using nix maybe more cost effective for large scale breeders.

The problem I have seen over the years on forums is people recommending nix or other home brew recipes to inexperienced keepers which can result in serious issues (neurological issues, death...).

Because it works for a person that has been using it for years does not mean it's the best thing to recommend but same goes for many other things. When recommending something you need to take in consideration who you are dealing with.

Bottom line I prefer to use and recommend PAM to people. It's effective and safe IF use properly and a can will last a long time.

The only time I've had mites, I couldn't get PAM in time due to being in canada. So I looked at other ways and NIX came up. Used it ONCE and mites gone! Its a very simple recipe, 1 bottle of NIX in 1 gallon (or 4 litres for the canadians here) and put in a spray bottle. MITES GONE! Spray on the snake and everywhere in/about/around/under the enclosure and kiss those buggers good night! The benefit is it kills the mites AND the eggs. Not just one or the other. I don't know how much people round this site respect what I say but the stuff works like a charm! Trust me. Also its wayyy chesaper than PAM and you get 1 gallon of medicine. For for large scale problems, its way more cost effective.

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Originally Posted by interloc

The only time I've had mites, I couldn't get PAM in time due to being in canada. So I looked at other ways and NIX came up. Used it ONCE and mites gone! Its a very simple recipe, 1 bottle of NIX in 1 gallon (or 4 litres for the canadians here) and put in a spray bottle. MITES GONE! Spray on the snake and everywhere in/about/around/under the enclosure and kiss those buggers good night! The benefit is it kills the mites AND the eggs. Not just one or the other. I don't know how much people round this site respect what I say but the stuff works like a charm! Trust me. Also its wayyy chesaper than PAM and you get 1 gallon of medicine. For for large scale problems, its way more cost effective.

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This is where I have a problem with people recommending NIX. From all of the NIX vs PAM threads I've read, everyone claims that the NIX is essentially the same thing as PAM. But it says on the can of PAM that it is NOT to be used on the animal. I would think that spraying your snake with NIX would introduce the same chemicals as PAM to the snake, potentially causing the same problems. There are no instructions on a bottle of NIX to tell you how to use it to treat a case of snake mites, so you're going on an assumption and putting your snakes at risk over something that's never been tested safe to use on live reptiles. PAM has been tested and it's fully documented how to properly use it to eradicate a mite infestation. I had mites from my first (PetCo) snake. I came here, got the advice of PAM, ordered a can and treated according to the instructions. One treatment was all I ever needed, and the extra few bucks for PAM was worth the peace of mind.

I would also be worried about the ramifications of spraying directly on the snake.

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

I would also be worried about the ramifications of spraying directly on the snake.

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The way I heard it is yes, NIX does have the same ingredient that kills mites as PAM does. However, PAM has all sorts of other chemicals in it. Not to mention its a spray can so it has stuff in it that's bad for the environment. It needs to be well ventilated because the fumes are harmful. That doesn't sound like something that I want to be around. Just my thoughts.

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I use Reptile Relief as a preventative in my snake room because it is safe to use on and around the snakes. PAM is not safe to use on snakes and it scares the heck out of me. However, I do keep a couple of cans around just in case. I've read a lot about the NIX treatment, but have not used it. I'm not sure why there is such a strong following for PAM as I've read of problems from people using it. It may be great at killing mites, but it can also kill your snakes if you are not very careful. Reptile Relief seems like a much safer product to me. Heck, even the NIX treatment sounds like a safer product to me.

I think in the end, you have to do what you feel is best for your collection. For some people, that is PAM for others it is a different treatment.

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Originally Posted by Don

I use Reptile Relief as a preventative in my snake room because it is safe to use on and around the snakes. PAM is not safe to use on snakes and it scares the heck out of me. However, I do keep a couple of cans around just in case. I've read a lot about the NIX treatment, but have not used it. I'm not sure why there is such a strong following for PAM as I've read of problems from people using it. It may be great at killing mites, but it can also kill your snakes if you are not very careful. Reptile Relief seems like a much safer product to me. Heck, even the NIX treatment sounds like a safer product to me.

I think in the end, you have to do what you feel is best for your collection. For some people, that is PAM for others it is a different treatment.

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Don, I think it's cute that people think PAM is "safe" or specially formulated for safe use around reptiles, but that other permethrin products are not.

I read Jamie's piece advocating the use of of PAM and it's explanation of why PAM is somehow so special that other permethrin products of the same concentration cannot be used in the same fashion. I gave a printout of that post to my friend Vic's wife who is a chemist for the Ortho Division of Chevron.

I won't go into her explanation of how there is essentially little to no difference (depending on the brand) between treatments and how legally Pro-Products by virtue of their instructions and the semantics involved in the EPA and USDA approval processes can make the claims no one else can.

The semantics of that approval, however, are paper thin reasoning for me to pay the premium for PAM. When dealing with prophylactically treating new arrivals, I opt to use a more attainable (both in terms of purchasing and price) product and have had zero issues with it.

This argument has been covered on this forum and elsewhere. Anyone who wishes to investigate for themselves should find more than enough information to make a true informed choice.

I have only had mites come in on one new addition and she was treated with a mild NIX solution. Worked like a charm.

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Originally Posted by interloc

The only time I've had mites, I couldn't get PAM in time due to being in canada.

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There are Canadian Suppliers of PAM, if you need some let me know and I can have it shipped to you or if you are in the GTA just come and pick it up.

Unfortunately for me Skip, you cannot search just the word NIX here, I've tried. The few threads that do come up when you add the word mite or treatment seem to be more of what I was asking. Someone wanting to know if it is safe, and two or three people saying no, while two or three say yes.

That is why I was hoping to hear from someone with long term experience with it.

I can see both sides of the argument, cost versus safety. That's why I am curious I suppose.

Gale

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Originally Posted by el8ch

I have only had mites come in on one new addition and she was treated with a mild NIX solution. Worked like a charm.



There are Canadian Suppliers of PAM, if you need some let me know and I can have it shipped to you or if you are in the GTA just come and pick it up.

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Thanks! But since NIX worked so well for me, I will probly use it again. Let's hope I don't have to tho. Lol.

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Originally Posted by angllady2

Unfortunately for me Skip, you cannot search just the word NIX here, I've tried. The few threads that do come up when you add the word mite or treatment seem to be more of what I was asking. Someone wanting to know if it is safe, and two or three people saying no, while two or three say yes.

That is why I was hoping to hear from someone with long term experience with it.

I can see both sides of the argument, cost versus safety. That's why I am curious I suppose.

Gale

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What was the name of that book by Mark Twain?

The Adventures of Tom __________

Pluralize that in a search.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

What was the name of that book by Mark Twain?

The Adventures of Tom __________

Pluralize that in a search.

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Thanks for that info, never knew that.

Skiploder is legendary. That is all.

You always have to take skiploaders comments as sarcastic. Either that or he becomes rather impolite.

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I am not condoning the use of NIX instead of PAM but I do know several large ball python guys who use Nix on snakes instead of Reptile Relief and other mite killer. They dilute a little in some water and spray every new snake that comes in. Never had any problems, they also still use PAM on the tubs.

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Originally Posted by interloc

You always have to take skiploaders comments as sarcastic. Either that or he becomes rather impolite.

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It's funny because it's true.

Very useful information, Skip. Since despite your blunt nature, I consider you to be one of the most knowledgeable people here, I just might be giving your suggestion a try.

Gale

I use Pam. Mostly because my local reptile store stocks it, and it has worked well for me. But because of so many people online talking about using Nix, I have been looking into it.
I have a Cousin that is the owner of a Pest Control Business, and he is pretty well educated on most pesticides. So I asked him what he thought about PAM vs NIX. He said that they have the same active ingredient (permethrin), and that they would work equally well in his opinion. But, he cautioned me about getting permethrin directly on a snake. He said either product would be fine to treat the enclosure, but advised against applying it directly to the animal. I think since the Nix is a lot less expensive, I might start using it to spray the outsides of my snake cages, and continue using PAM on the insides.

Ok, so, this is going to be fairly short and sweet... this is not to instigate riot, or challenge anyones 'opinions' or preference, not heresay, or what someone else heard, this is simply experience, like what was originally asked for.

NIX IS tested. It is tested by being used by countless large scale snake breeders and used successfully or they wouldn't continue using it. Mites die, infestations go away, snakes live, reproduce, etc.

It is not officially tested because it is not created for snakes.

PAM is one of my last choices, if even a choice. Why? because it is most expensive and least effective, in my experience!
Safe? ONLY if used as directed! If not, very harmful! Just like anything else in life.

Black Knight was by far better than PAM and the best product out there, again, in my experience (250-500 personal snakes at a time over a 15+ year period).


Why is NIX safer than PAM or any other chemical spray type mite product, in my experience? Because NIX is very limited in chemicals and/or ingredients. It is mixed with water. There are NO other chemicals, aeresols, accelerants, etc. as there are with a can of spray like PAM.

Those items are what are mostly harmful... the vapors, fumes.. that is why you have to air it out and cannot spray the animal because they will inhale this. That is what has caused neurological issues in animals for me in the past, with PAM or Black Knight when used in high concentrations and/or directly on the animal or in the cage while the animal is present.

I have SOAKED animals in NIX with NO ill effect.


MOST RECENT EXPERIENCE.

I was managing a large scale reptile farm which supplied about 1000 retail petstores nationwide. Over 100,000 reptiles on property. Many coming and going daily.

We here talk about BP's, so here's the BP experience. We would go through 10-20,000 a year. Importing many directly from Africa.

The only time we would use PAM is when treating the Aspen used for imports when we thought we might see mites. Too expensive and not the best for actually treating the mites.

During an outbreak, we used PAM and could not get it under control. The way it has to be used it not effective enough, especially not directly on the animal itself. Much else has to be done to rid the animal itself of mites. More time, effort, resources = not possible.

In one particular trailer housing about 4000 BPs I had to take a large sprayer, like what exterminators use, and spray the thing floor to ceiling with NIX. Cages, inside cages, snakes, racks, walls, etc... everything. This and only this eradicated the mites completely.

Result was clean, healthy snakes that are shipped to pet stores and we do not hear complaints. When there is any issue, especially mites or neuro issues, the pet stores would not receive the animals and enter complaints immediately. Nothing like that happened.


When receiving new shipments of BPs we would put them in large, bare tubs, maybe 50-100 per tub and spray them very liberally with NIX solution. Leave them a few minutes, drain the excess, so they can't drink it, and then repeat.
If they had lots of mites, we would repeat the next day, then after letting them dry, leave them on aspen treated with PAM for another day or two.

PAM was more to prevent reinfestation, not to treat directly or attack main cause.

BTW, if they do drink the NIX solution, we've seen runny stools, then after drinking freshwater and eating as usual, no other problems whatsoever.

The End.

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Originally Posted by Inknsteel

This is where I have a problem with people recommending NIX. From all of the NIX vs PAM threads I've read, everyone claims that the NIX is essentially the same thing as PAM. But it says on the can of PAM that it is NOT to be used on the animal. I would think that spraying your snake with NIX would introduce the same chemicals as PAM to the snake, potentially causing the same problems. There are no instructions on a bottle of NIX to tell you how to use it to treat a case of snake mites, so you're going on an assumption and putting your snakes at risk over something that's never been tested safe to use on live reptiles. PAM has been tested and it's fully documented how to properly use it to eradicate a mite infestation. I had mites from my first (PetCo) snake. I came here, got the advice of PAM, ordered a can and treated according to the instructions. One treatment was all I ever needed, and the extra few bucks for PAM was worth the peace of mind.

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Nix is used on Humans and supposed to be safe for children and ALL animals who encounter a child's head lice, dogs cats PETS that your child cuddles, you can shampoo a child a dog or a cat with it but not spray a very extremely diluted amount on snakes? LARGE breeders have done this after shows and Expo's for years the mix is something that should be researched but it is very simple 1-2 fl.oz bottle to one gallon of water, mix well very very well....huge dilution compared to putting it strait on the child's head...i don't like the idea of using this on anything and i will NEVER state that a pesticide is safe, but it has been successfully used as a cure and a prevention after shows...I get more piece of mind with a NIX than prevent a mite as i read how the product works and it dehydrates the mite and you have to soak your snake for 30 minutes after spraying or the snake is at risk of dehydration from the PAM...so if you have to go to such lengths to keep your snake form dying from a cure then hmmm that scares me to death...I love my snakes too much...

First, necro thread from long long ago...

Second, you should never ever use the argument "You can use this on a human, so it must be okay for a reptile" in any form. EVEN if it's true in this particular case that the substance can be used safely on both humans and apparently snakes, using that argument can lead to killing reptiles with things that are never safe to use on a snake.

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Originally Posted by Merk

I get more piece of mind with a NIX than prevent a mite as i read how the product works and it dehydrates the mite and you have to soak your snake for 30 minutes after spraying or the snake is at risk of dehydration from the PAM...so if you have to go to such lengths to keep your snake form dying from a cure then hmmm that scares me to death...I love my snakes too much...

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Ummmmmmmmmmmm... no. NIX does not work by dehydrating the mites. Reptile Spray does, it's a solution of salts. Once dry it loses its effectiveness fairly rapidly but it does work to give your snake instant relief from the mites it's currently harboring.

Both PAM and NIX contain permethrin and if your snake ingests too much of either product, then your snake can end up with neurological damage or dead, which is why the directions for PAM state not to spray it directly on the snake or its water bowl.