Sterilization and or castration

Good evening, so I can see how this may be a controversial question. I ask that discussion stay on point.

There are a number of questions I want to raise regarding this.

Is it possible? Either surgically, or chemically, to castrate or sterilize a ball python without harming the animal.

Would you do it if it was easy and safe?

Would it benefit the hobby in the long run?

General thoughts?

This was brought about from discussing male vs female pricing.

With popularity of reptiles growing every year, why do we not do this? Im on the fence, however, I can see huge benefits to the idea.
We already spay and neuter our pets, now I understand our reptiles are more controlled than dogs or cats. But would this not be one way to limit irresponsible, on a whim pet owners from just putting there animals together??? If the choice to begin breeding entailed actual thought, research and agreements would that not discourage some??

However i can see how it may in fact reduce morphs that are created, as there simply wouldnt be as many ppl doing it.. Which is bad for the general idea of the hobby.

But:
One could for instance sell a pet stock bp for considerably less money then a breeder as is traditional in most breeding markets.

As stated above, economically this would imho cause more control over market pricing. By limiting breedable animals prices would not fall nearly as fast as they currently do.


Its late and i have lots of thoughts both ways, whats your .02

I don't see any reason too. Bp's shouldn't be housed together to accidental clutches shouldn't happen.

Seeing how cheap normals are already I don't see any reason too for pricing. Are people really going to buy a normal for any more than $50? Would anybody sell a sterilized clown for any less than it is worth when they could sell a breedable clown for what it is worth?

Seeing that a procedure hasn't been developed as far as I know chances are it would take a very long time before the average vet would even know that the procedure existed let alone perform an operation. I can't see it being cost effective if it is even possible/safe to perform.

I personally would not have any of my snakes/offspring undergo any sort of sterilization.

I seriously doubt that it would catch on and if it did I can't see it greatly impacting the hobby.

People who are going to breed BP's are going to do so... people who aren't going to breed won't regardless if their animal is capable or not.

I see your argument, but also don't see a point. Would a female ball python retain sperm, and not produce eggs if they were being stressed out by a male constantly trying to mate?

Just to expand on my pricing idea..

If you produce 5 female pastels...

4 are purchased by pet owners for the cost of 100 dollars each, with written agreements to sterilize the bps. (as many dog breeder do)

1 is purchased by a breeder as breeding stock for 500 Just an idea.

Thus, only 1 possible breeder animals enter the market..

Now: in 2 years 5 x 6eggs= 30 eggs
For argument, all bred to normals, producing all female pastels
In 2 years 30 x 6eggs= 180 eggs
Same above parameters.
2 years 180x 6 eggs= 1080 eggs

Current value is 100 bucks giver take
Thus total market addition in 6 years is ~$108,000. Only referring to raise up and first clutches

in 10 years,

Of 5 eggs, 4 are sterilized.

1 has 6, hold back 1 from 6 and breed..

1, then 2, then 4, then 16, then, 96

Generally speaking.. If referring to first clutches only, a total number of breedable animals produced is 119 in 10 years..

Supply and demand. Not saying prices would go up.. But prices would not drop nearly as fast..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Capray

I see your argument, but also don't see a point. Would a female ball python retain sperm, and not produce eggs if they were being stressed out by a male constantly trying to mate?

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Im not following?

Well the problem is that everybody would have to do this. Otherwise people will simply take their business elsewhere to find prices that are considered normal.

Further our hobby is already too developed for a change this massive to occur.

As a breeder why would I not want to sell all of my animals at top dollar?

As a breeder buying new breeding stock why would I want to pay more than I am now for the same animal?

What about pet stores? This hobby has a steep enough learning curve last thing we need is to make things more complicated for beginners.

I understand what you are trying to say about limiting breeding stock but I just can't see enough breeders jumping on the bandwaggon for it to actually work given the issues I listed above.

So, sellers would have to spend extra effort and money to have a sterilization procedure done to these animals, and then sell them for less? I don't think it really makes sense or that many people would want to buy a sterilized snake. Since our pet snakes don't run around freely like cats and dogs, it's really easy to ensure they don't accidentally breed. Just don't house them together period, and it won't be an issue. If for some reason, an accidental unwanted ball python breeding occurred, just take the eggs from the female after they are laid, don't incubate them artificially, and you will not have any unwanted snakes.

In terms of accidental pairings I understand that.. Its not an issue.. However escapes do...

In terms of the non snake community, invasiveness of our pets is a fairly large media created worry.. Ie: python hunters...

I live in canada, where they cant survive, and i still get asked about my snakes getting out and them mating and snakes being everywhere..

Seems it may be a calming notion to the public to know that majority of snakes are sterile...

I agree, its not something that could ever happen.

It has its pluses, and definite minuses.. I would not be a breeder now had it not been possible for me to buy a breedable animal. Even thought i purchased him with no intention of breeding.

New morphs are created all the time by small mom and pop places that started the exact same way.

I know i dont wanna have to spend 2k bucks on a het breedable hatchling, and not very many others would want to aswell.. Its not a thought to raise prices.. But to cause price declines to slow.. Ie a lesser wouldnt go from 10k to 200 bucks in 10 years, or however long its been.

Lol even a 10,000 dollar car doesnt depreciate that fast.


So what about a written legal agreement??

If sterilization is too invasive.. Why do we not have buyers sign non compete agreements so to speak?? And if they breed legal action can be taken.. With breeding rights to be purchased for a fee?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Simplex

Im not following?

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Just a random question...Does the female ball python have the ability to knowingly retain sperm if she is not ready/comfortable enough to bear eggs?

I suspect that it can be done. At least on males. The BP market is really odd people breeding snakes for breeders. Eventually it has to burst, the idea is sound take a really expensive morph sterile it is worth less to breeders and reduce the cost for people whom want it as a pet. The issue is clear people are greedy, they will not want to take a 5000$ animal and make it a 500 dollar one. The prices already reflect the breeding fee in the price unlike dogs where the price excludes it. It will stay that way until something changes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Simplex

In terms of accidental pairings I understand that.. Its not an issue.. However escapes do...

In terms of the non snake community, invasiveness of our pets is a fairly large media created worry.. Ie: python hunters...

I live in canada, where they cant survive, and i still get asked about my snakes getting out and them mating and snakes being everywhere..

Seems it may be a calming notion to the public to know that majority of snakes are sterile...

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IMO, this is about the only really compelling argument in favor of this (sorry). I agree 100% that this would be "good" (if you can call it that -- "placating" might be a better term) PR for snake-owners, in light of the media attention that FL has given us.

Of course, I could easily see it backfiring in that, once those in authority knew it was possible to sterilize the snake, they might decide to pass a great new law to protect the people from invasive snakes by requiring that all snake owners surgically alter their pets. :mad:

Back to your original point, IMO one of the problems is that population control is not the only reason that dog and cat owners are (successfully) encouraged to spay and neuter their pets.

Male dogs may become calmer, may have less aggression towards humans and are far less likely to attack OR to be attacked by another dog.

Female dogs may become calmer, won't undergo messy heat cycles, and are at significantly decreased risk for mammary carcinoma and pyometra, just to name two.

Male cats ... Well, anyone who's ever smelled an intact male cat knows the reason to neuter them. :rofl:

Female cats' heat cycles are arguably even more obnoxious than female dogs', and they, too, are at a higher risk for certain cancers while intact.

So, even if you have a contract stating that the owner has to get the animal neutered (BTW, "neuter" is technically a gender-neuteral term -- the word for altering a male is "castrate"), they have no incentive to do so. If the contract is primarily to prevent "unauthorized" reproduction, all the owner really has to do is abstain from putting the snakes together. You could accomplish the same thing with a contract that didn't require surgical or chemical alteration.

Or, better yet (IMO), just encourage people to enjoy these animals as pets. I've pretty much made the decision to only breed Ball Pythons, no other snake species, so that means that I've got probably over a dozen "pet only" snakes right now. So what? I still enjoy them.

Snake spays are tough. If done improperly, it can result in leftover ovarian tissue that can easily become massively cancerous.

Hormone implants may be possible (I've seen one implanted, but I don't yet know how well it worked out), but would need to be replaced every so often.

I don't know of anyone who's tried to castrate a snake ... I don't think that would be all too difficult, actually, but again, I just don't quite see the point. I can poke around and find out though.

Oh yeah, don't forget that any surgical procedure puts the animal's life at risk, however slight (and the more "exotic" the pet, the less "slight" the risk) -- I would have to question the ethics just a bit if we're talking about doing this primarily for financial reasons.

Now, when I first saw this thread, I figured you had started it as an offshoot of the "eyeless Piebald" thread ... I could potentially see that (potential genetic deformity) as a reason to pursue sexually altering a snake. Don't forget, though, that this isn't going to cost whatever your local spay/neuter clinic would charge for a routine dog/cat procedure. This is a major surgical procedure, and would need to be performed by an exotics specialist, who would treat it as such as far as its gravity and cost. That eyeless $700 snake is going to become an eyeless $1700 snake very very quickly. I also don't know how feasible it's going to be to alter it at its 70-100 gram baby weight ... You might need to wait until it's a subadult.

... And that may be more than two cents worth, but I've got a bit of perspective on it so figured I'd share. :rolleye2: