Rats not breeding fast enough

Hey guys, I have 4 Bp's and 1 juvy burm who eats like a large Bp right now. I started breeding rats around late april if I had to guess. I began with 5 females, and one male. I was told the females had never bred before. Took them a while to get started, but eventually they all popped out litters.

I tried to feed off males first, and keep all my females, but my odds have been terrible. I lost 2 litters due to bad parenting, and I only got 3 females from my first wave of litters, and 5 from my second wave of litters. Now all my starters have had 2 litters and need to retire. 2 of my hold backs are pregnant but the other 5 females are still too young and even once they are old enough I have to wait out the pregnancy.

Im at the point now, where im completely out of feeders, the ones retiring are too large for even my burm, and Im going to have to buy F/T rats just to keep them feeding regularly until my rats catch up. I have looked on craigslist for more females, buts its been pretty dry. The pet stores in my area are all male only. I do know one pkace that sells live feeders, but I dobt trust the health of their animals at all.

So now my question. Does anyone know of a way to increase the speed of production? more males, smaller colonies, just plain more females, a different species, such as african soft furs perhaps? Im still pretty new at this and dont know all the tricks for success quite yet = P

ASFs!!! They breed like crazy and have big litters. They are great parents and they barely smell! I would get your hands on a 1.2 or 1.3. You can expect at least 20-30 babies per month with a 1.2 and 30-40 with a 1.3.

They also breed back to back with no problems, so you don't need to give your females breaks. I've been breeding them since May and I really enjoy them. Even though they are food, I like to watch them and take care of them. They are pretty cute and fun to watch! If you really want a show, throw some super worms or a few dozen crickets in there and watch them go crazy!!

Okay, got some more qiestions about ASF now XD
1)Size difference from normals
2)aggression level?
3) do they eat the same type of food as normal rats? or are super worms and crickets additional?

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Originally Posted by Riv

Okay, got some more qiestions about ASF now XD
1)Size difference from normals
2)aggression level?
3) do they eat the same type of food as normal rats? or are super worms and crickets additional?

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1) As adults they're about the same as a small-medium sized norwegian rat but take quite a bit longer to grow out.
2) Mine aren't agressive(biters were promptly fed off) but I'll still get a nip every now and then from protective parents.
3) They eat the same food, you can treat your norwegians to a protein snack every now and then too - they love em.

Summer is usually a slow season (for me) when it comes to breeding rats. Why are you retiring your females after 2 litters? I breed the heck out of mine and get a good year of high production out of the females. I've got a small colony and find I need to buy rats on occasion. Having a few in the freezer is always a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Riv

Okay, got some more qiestions about ASF now XD
1)Size difference from normals
2)aggression level?
3) do they eat the same type of food as normal rats? or are super worms and crickets additional?

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I'm not an expert, but I'll give you my input.

1. They are much smaller than regular rats, but big rats are often too big for many ball pythons in my opinion. The adults I have weigh 70-90g each. So, on the smaller side but not too bad.

2. Mine aren't aggressive at all. I don't pick them up and play with them, I just pet them with the back of my hand. I have not been bitten, but I try to be smart about when I go in there and mess with them. I don't handle them if I don't have to.

3. They do fine on the same food as rats. I do the crickets and super worms as occasional extras. They will also eat some fruits and veggies.


Beware though, they love to chew!! Give them plenty of stuff to chew on. Also, they will use a wheel til the end of time. The run like it is their duty in life.

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Originally Posted by MarkieJ

Summer is usually a slow season (for me) when it comes to breeding rats. Why are you retiring your females after 2 litters? I breed the heck out of mine and get a good year of high production out of the females. I've got a small colony and find I need to buy rats on occasion. Having a few in the freezer is always a good idea.

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Well, I read one one of those rat care guides you find online that from the third litter on it starts negatively impacting their health, so I figured if I sold all of the rats with two litters under their belt on craigslist, then I could make some money back from them. Ive got two guys who want to buy My older male(ive got a holdback to take his place) and 4 females for $20. Its not a ton, but it covers bedding for the next 2 months, or the next bag of food. And Yeah. thrre was a point when I had at least 5 smalls frozen and waiting, but over time the snakes ate faster than rats bred, and I ran out.


@john and kaorte That doesnt sound too bad. My rats are protectice of their litters anyway so im already used to it. And it WOULD be nice not to have to worry about the prey getting too big. My fiance is pumped that they dont smell as bad too hahaha. I am provbably going to have to keep a colony for my burm as the ASF just wont get big enough for her. But for my Bp's? Im definitely going ASF. Now all I have to do is track some down XD Ill put an ad up to see if theres a breeder in my area But just in case, are there any breeders that can ship them to me? That would almost be preferable. I dont have a ton of free time during most of the week.

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I tried to feed off males first, and keep all my females, but my odds have been terrible. I lost 2 litters due to bad parenting, and I only got 3 females from my first wave of litters, and 5 from my second wave of litters. Now all my starters have had 2 litters and need to retire. 2 of my hold backs are pregnant but the other 5 females are still too young and even once they are old enough I have to wait out the pregnancy.

So now my question. Does anyone know of a way to increase the speed of production? more males, smaller colonies, just plain more females, a different species, such as african soft furs perhaps? Im still pretty new at this and dont know all the tricks for success quite yet = P

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Don't retire breeders after 2 litters unless there is something wrong with them. Healthy females will breed well for at least a year, if not more. Retire them once you see their litter size significantly decreasing and/or after a whole year of breeding. It's only unhealthy for the female if you over breed them back to back. (i.e, no breaks after 3 consecutive breedings. It's taxing on their bodies)
If you're not getting enough litters, get more females and harem breed (1 male with multiple females at all times).<-- This will get your production really high.
If you want to give the females a break, then stagger your breeding.
For example, if you want a litter a week, you need 12 females. With those 12 females, you breed one a week. That way it will give some girls rest while others breed in their stead. You just need to come up with a nice system.
Personally, I have 8 snakes and breed a single female every other week. 1 litter can last me about 2 weeks worth of feeding.

Norway rats:
-Pros: Grows fast, has many sizes you can feed
-Cons: litters average 8-12

ASFs:
-Pros: Has very large litters and breeds very fast
-Cons: litters take long to grow up into proper feeding size.


If you get any pretty coat types and dumbos, sell your rats for more.
My rats price at:
$5 - standard top ear
$10 - dumbo
$10 -rex
$15 dumbo rex
People do go for them. 3 dumbo rat sales alone can feed the entire colony for 2+ months for me.

So was I just wrong about too many litters being bad for them? Theyre cool to breed for an entire year, or when they start having tiny litters?

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Originally Posted by Riv

So was I just wrong about too many litters being bad for them? Theyre cool to breed for an entire year, or when they start having tiny litters?

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Yup!
If you feel that a female is struggling to take care of her litters from exhaustion, just give her a break time to time. I'm sure she'll appreciate it.
Other than that, healthy females should be able to breed fine for more than 2 litters.

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Originally Posted by Riv

So was I just wrong about too many litters being bad for them? Theyre cool to breed for an entire year, or when they start having tiny litters?

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Yes that's normal for a breeder rat to go a year and sometimes longer

Fantastic! I think I may still give african soft furs a go in addition to my norways for now. But Ill'definitely be staggering them from now on. I need to hammer out a good schedule. But if I have a male in 1 tank, all my females in another, and simply have one in with him a week at a time, then switch consistently I think it would work better. Thanks nikki = P

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Originally Posted by Riv

Fantastic! I think I may still give african soft furs a go in addition to my norways for now. But Ill'definitely be staggering them from now on. I need to hammer out a good schedule. But if I have a male in 1 tank, all my females in another, and simply have one in with him a week at a time, then switch consistently I think it would work better. Thanks nikki = P

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I feel the need to mention that they may still not produce as much as you'd need. I got a 1:2 in may at my local reptile expo. So far, I've had 9 babies. And now ones pregnant. :/ I seem to have terrible luck I guess.

I was gonna mention too the fact after a few litters the females that were not so good at mothering also tend to pick it up by the 3-4 litter and the litter size should also increase too.

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Originally Posted by Riv

Fantastic! I think I may still give african soft furs a go in addition to my norways for now. But Ill'definitely be staggering them from now on.

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I dont think anyone also mentioned to try not to do this with the asf rats, leave them in their groups... they get a wee bit crazy

Can Norway rats and ASFs interbreed? Hmm.:confusd:

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Originally Posted by Capray

Can Norway rats and ASFs interbreed? Hmm.:confusd:

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They are different species so no.

I keep my rats in 1.1 or 1.2 groups, I never separate them. My females last at least a year before I need to replace them. I find, for me, if I keep them in larger groups the females give birth at different times and the youngest pups can't compete with the older pups. Right now I have almost 30 pups between two females, and one female is about 8 months old now.

I have some females that are well into their second year of breeding with no problems.
I think the biggest key is to give them some time off after you wean the litters so they can get their bodies back to health.
If you plan on keeping all your females together then they will never get a break because they will be helping the other mothers.

Your best bet is a rack, say 7 tub.
3 to 4 females per tub in the top 4 tubs
the male gets tub 5 as his own (I would have at least 2 males)
male in tub 1 for 2 weeks then move male to tub 2 and so forth
when the male gets to tub 5 he is on his break as well.
bottom two tubs are for your male and female wean outs

This will work on a small scale but you will get to a point that you might have to start freezing off litters too.
Plus with the rotation of tubs you will almost always have different size "meals" for all of your collection.
It does take some time to get it running right.

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Originally Posted by Bobbafett

I feel the need to mention that they may still not produce as much as you'd need. I got a 1:2 in may at my local reptile expo. So far, I've had 9 babies. And now ones pregnant. :/ I seem to have terrible luck I guess.

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Sometimes their first litter will be on the small side. I hope your next litter goes better!

Ill give some advise here but I am just starting out rat breeding as well.

My first litters from my 3 moms were terrible at best. Of the 14 total babies from the 3 moms only 4 lived long enuff to grow to feeder size. Bad motherhood and small litters was what I had as well. I was ready to feed off everyone and give up rat breeding all together but my second round with all 3 moms was great so far. I had a little of 16 with 2 still borns second litter was 15 great babies and my 3 litter should be any day now. Both moms are excellent mothers and all the babies now have there eyes open and growing like weeds. The third mom is getting huge and should drop me a litter about the time the first moms are weened and ready to seperate. So do not give up on them yet rats make excellent mothers once they get the hang of it. Give them a second chance and see what happens. I currently have 29 rats growing toward feeder size with more on the way. I give all my mother a week or two off after the babies have weened so they produce a litter every coulple months and are in great health so far. Hope this helps you out :P
Robbie

I have a 4 tub rack with 1.5 adults per tub. I do not separate any of them. I tried at first but it seemed to stress them and I ended up with mothers killing babies and males constantly. Mine produce consistently for about 8 months usually at which point they are fed off or frozen. I have been told that they will go longer but I prefer to keep the numbers up and not wait for a drop in production. When it's getting close to time to retire an adult, I pick an unrelated baby from another tub and put it with its new family. I can generally keep up with my rat eating collection. Occasionally I have to thaw a few, occasionally I get to freeze a few.

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Originally Posted by Annageckos

I find, for me, if I keep them in larger groups the females give birth at different times and the youngest pups can't compete with the older pups..

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If you leave females long enough with each other, they will synchronize their heat cycles (Much like humans). So you will get litters around the same time.

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So I was also considering switching to asf. I talked to a local breeder and if you plan on breeding your bps and feeding asfs to them it can lower the value of your balls. He explained it to me this way. If all your snakes are hooked on asfs then they won't eat nice or rats, and not everyone has the access to asfs. So it could cause people to not wont to buy from you. My .02

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Originally Posted by New guy

So I was also considering switching to asf. I talked to a local breeder and if you plan on breeding your bps and feeding asfs to them it can lower the value of your balls. He explained it to me this way. If all your snakes are hooked on asfs then they won't eat nice or rats, and not everyone has the access to asfs. So it could cause people to not wont to buy from you. My .02

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Just keep a few sizes of frozen rats on hand and make sure they get at least one of those and it will prove that they are not "hooked" on asfs. All mine take asf or rats. Live and f/t no problem. I think it is less about imprinting and more about the fact that ball pythons can just suddenly decide they only want a certain kind of food..and then later decide that they don't really care what they eat. Their habits change. Steering clear of asfs isn't going to save you from the ever picky ball python.

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Originally Posted by New guy

So I was also considering switching to asf. I talked to a local breeder and if you plan on breeding your bps and feeding asfs to them it can lower the value of your balls. He explained it to me this way. If all your snakes are hooked on asfs then they won't eat nice or rats, and not everyone has the access to asfs. So it could cause people to not wont to buy from you. My .02

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I don't know about that ^^, see this-

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1919275


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I am just relaying my reason for not doing it but agreed its different with every ball. If you start them on asf it could potentially be harder to switch to anything else.

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Originally Posted by New guy

I am just relaying my reason for not doing it but agreed its different with every ball. If you start them on asf it could potentially be harder to switch to anything else.

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How is is any different than starting with mice? If you start a snake on mice, it could potentially be harder to switch to anything else.

My point is, that they are no more likely to imprint on ASF as they are mice or rats. If you have and reference that proves that bps started on ASF aren't as easy to switch over, I would be glad to see it.

I'm not trying to argue my point was just simply stated what I found out. And having a snake on mice would be more convenient for potential new buyers who don't have access to asfs. Mice are def easier to come by then asfs.

I'd rather have one started on asf's than mice. I have seen more people have a hard time switching them off mice, IMO.

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To the OP: not sure if you've already looked at this or not but if not, it's a great reference for how to stagger your breedings:

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...-Many-to-Breed

When I started with my rats, I had some of the same issue you're dealing with: low birth numbers/litter size, moms eating babies, figuring out how often to breed them and how many to breed at one time. I by no means have it down to a science but it gets easier with time and most of the females get the hang of things by the second litter or sometimes the third if they're a little slow to figure it out. I follow the chart I referenced above and have four females per tub for a total of 44 breeder females and 3 breeder males. I rotate my males every other week so they each have a break after breeding to keep from wearing them out. There are pros and cons to harem breeding and as someone mentioned it can be an issue if your females don't quite sync up with their heat cycles or conception, as the pups can be smaller or larger than their tub mates. I use a maternity rack when that happens and it works out fine, except for it taking a little longer for the babies to mature with just one female feeding them. I have zero experience with AFS and can't say on those; good luck with things and take care!

I personally wouldn't want to buy an ASF fed snake.
Doing a slow conversion would be fairly difficult for me. I would have no means to feed feed the snake anyways since ASFs are illegal in my state...

Keep at it my 1.4 colony is producing like a champ now I started in late may and had terrible litters to start. Now I am getting 13-15 on a regular basis with third litters on the way. Giv ethem a little time :)

I lost most of my rats dueto heat this summer and it been a pain in the rear to get the colonies rebuilt. most of my loses were prego females and older breeders. I am just now starting to get breeding going again (4 months ) later and it killed my wallet buying rats at 5-9 bucks each and needing like 20 at a time.
I gotten lucky since some snakes are off feed in way lol.

but I know my 2 females that breed for me this year are slamming grown rats when I can get them .

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Originally Posted by satomi325

Yup!
If you feel that a female is struggling to take care of her litters from exhaustion, just give her a break time to time. I'm sure she'll appreciate it.
Other than that, healthy females should be able to breed fine for more than 2 litters.

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:) I do this myself by harem breeding (1 male to 4-5 females - in freedom breeder rodent tubs), and when a few females in a few tubs are about the same size and at the same level of being preggo (usually happens 2-3 at a time), i take out the girls and put them into a separate tub. They have a few days to get used to each other, then they end up popping both their litters around the same time, almost every time! Then they community raise them - half of they two litters is with each female, or most are piled together and they alternate feeding

This also prevents them from getting preggo in their post-labor estrus, and gives them a few weeks with their babies to relax. I wait until the babies are fully weaned, on solid food and all (after they clearly aren't nursing for a few days to a week), and then I return the female to the tub. I've read that they only estruss every so often, so the chances of her estrussing right when i put her in is highly unlikely, giving her another week at least to relax before she breeds again :)