What is this?!!!

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l3...3195184955.jpg

My friends spider layed 4 eggs the other day. The 5th one was stuck deep inside her. We waited 2 days before gently massaging it out. It took little effort to get it to slide out. But this stuff came with it! Should we be worried?
She bled a little bit today also...

This is a butterxspider clutch

Oh... yeah, I would be worried. Couldn't hurt to take her to the vet. She might need some antibiotics, at a minimum.

Ok.

For peace of mind is this a common occurance? I thought maybe it was comparable to a placenta or something

No, it is not a common occurance. I would also recommend a vet.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

So, I've only had 5 clutches laid here? But none of them had any stuff attached. Yeah, you get placental goo with boa live births, but python clutches are very clean.

But I've also never had an egg bound female. It's definitely good that you got that slug out of her, you probably saved her life. But the attached stuff worries me. I've never seen that, never heard of it coming out with the stuck egg in an egg bound female, so I worry that she might not be out of the woods. That blood could have come from someplace deep, which is why I'm jumping to antibiotics. I'm hoping one of the more experienced breeders here weighs in, someone who's had an egg-bound female.

In the meantime, I would shoot an e-mail with that picture attached to the Barkers at VPI: vpi@beecreek.net

The egg wasnt a slug. It was completly healthy. Im going to talk to him about a vet

Vet!!!

That's not normal at all. :(

Definitely show the vet that picture if you can and sending it to someone like the Barkers is also a good idea.

I think I'd be asking for an emergency appointment to be honest.


dr del

awwwww man that looks really bad! generally the insides should not be outside. VET ASAP! put the extra parts in the fridge and take them with you when you go.

Looks like you've got some oviduct with that egg. I doubt she's ever able to breed again.

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Originally Posted by Luke Martin

Looks like you've got some oviduct with that egg. I doubt she's ever able to breed again.

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Yeah, that was my thought, actually. She'll need at least two seasons off, she might need surgery to breed, and even with that there's a still good chance laying another clutch would injure her again, or outright kill her. :( :( :(

Speaking as a female human who gets kinda queasy, the more I look at those pictures, the more my insides hurt. Poor spider girl.

Yup, that's oviduct. She's done breeding, and may even die.
Why would you palpate an egg out of her?
She would have done it on her own...
Sad, very sad.

As others have confirmed, that is all or part of her oviduct.

I hope that this graphic picture of a well meaning breeder/friend inadvertently tearing internal organs out of their valuable female breeding snake is a warning to other keepers as to just how serious a problem egg binding can be. If you are not a huge breeder who has significant experience with this problem and has observed in person how vets handle this situation, I would strongly discourage people from trying to deal with egg retention on their own. A good herp vet should be your FIRST move.

This is an area where vets have a lot of advantages over the average Joe. Often just fluids, some calcium/oxytosin, and some privacy is all that is needed to get an exhausted female to finish passing her eggs. If an egg is very close to the vent it is sometimes possible to palpate it out however the snake should be sedated and you need to make sure that the oviduct is not coming with it! The chance that you will successfully palpate out an egg that is higher up, out of an awake female snake without hurting her is slim to none.

Using medical management, aspiration of egg contents, endoscopy, and/or surgery a knowledgeable vet should be able to get most eggs out and preserve both the life and the breeding function of the female. A few hundred $ in treatment costs are more than outweighed by the reproductive value of most ball pythons.

This snake still needs a trip to a vet ASAP to prevent infection at the very least.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

Sorry to see that, I will watch for the update.

Only other thing I've seen that's even remotely close - http://www.worldofballpythons.com/blog/hard-belly/

What you've got there came out of the female, not the baby though, so I really doubt it's the same thing.

Good luck.

This happens to my friend ghost ball python female too, but much worst than this, he found the eggs scattered around the females and full of bloods! really a mess! he don't do any palpating, the eggs just came out by themselves, maybe the mom had some issued before. He then wiped out all the eggs and put them in the incubator, the bad news is the mom dead a few days after that, and the good news is surprisingly 2 of the 5 eggs hatched!

Any updates?

Well all the eggs died in the bator. The mom is doing fine, although i couldnt convince him to take her to a vet. Ive yet to tell him the general consensus from this thread (ovaduct). I dont know how to break it to him. I wasnt there when he massaged the egg out but i was told it took very little effort. :( this sucks. This spider was his baby hes gonna be heartbroken.

Perhaps if you told him that by palpating that egg out he also ripped out a significant bit of her reproductive organs he would reconsider the vet. It's utterly ridiculous that he is refusing to take her.

You got advice from people with expertise to rush that animal to a vet. You withheld that information from the actual owner of the snake FOR 10 DAYS because it's too hard to break it to them? That's wildly selfish and counter-intuitive. It's outright neglectful for the animal as well. Snakes can't scream when they're experiencing gut-wrenching pain.


Very sad. With that attitude you probably shouldn't be attempting to breed animals in a controlled environment.

Oh my lord... I have never seen that before. He needs to be told the full extent of the damage so he can make an educated decision on a vet. Which absolutely needs to happen.
That's crazy


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

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Originally Posted by MrLang

You got advice from people with expertise to rush that animal to a vet. You withheld that information from the actual owner of the snake FOR 10 DAYS because it's too hard to break it to them? That's wildly selfish and counter-intuitive. It's outright neglectful for the animal as well. Snakes can't scream when they're experiencing gut-wrenching pain.


Very sad. With that attitude you probably shouldn't be attempting to breed animals in a controlled environment.

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maybe back off the OP a little. in his defense it is the owners responsibility to, at the very least research what is going on with his animals not his friend. the fact that the owner refused to take the animal to the vet to begin with shows how he feels about his animals. there is no reason to attack the friend and to go as far as to tell him he should not breed is the most absurd thing i have ever heard. he didnt do this, it wasn't his snake, there is no grounds to say such things. should he have told him?....yes he should have. would it have made a difference? i doubt it. if you dont take your animal to the vet when you see thier insides come out then pointing out the obvious to them isnt going to do much.

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You got advice from people with expertise to rush that animal to a vet. You withheld that information from the actual owner of the snake FOR 10 DAYS because it's too hard to break it to them? That's wildly selfish and counter-intuitive. It's outright neglectful for the animal as well. Snakes can't scream when they're experiencing gut-wrenching pain. <br />
<br />
<br />
Very sad. With that attitude you probably shouldn't be attempting to breed animals in a controlled environment.

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Originally Posted by MrLang

You got advice from people with expertise to rush that animal to a vet. You withheld that information from the actual owner of the snake FOR 10 DAYS because it's too hard to break it to them? That's wildly selfish and counter-intuitive. It's outright neglectful for the animal as well. Snakes can't scream when they're experiencing gut-wrenching pain.


Very sad. With that attitude you probably shouldn't be attempting to breed animals in a controlled environment.

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Wow so quick to judge. Not that i owe you any explanation at all but here goes....

I posted this thread because my friend asked me to. In the meantime he has been doing his own research. It is not my snake. I do not control his wallet or what hes doing with his snakes.
Since posting this thread i have been away and havent really been checking up on here. This morning i signed on and remembered this thread and saw all the advice given.

I sent my friend a text to get back at me but his phone is off while hes at work. This is why i havent told him yet.

For you to question my motives and judgement in this matter is insulting and disrespectful.

Its one thing to offer advice but its another thing to bash me for something without knowing the full story.

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Originally Posted by sflanick

maybe back off the OP a little. in his defense it is the owners responsibility to, at the very least research what is going on with his animals not his friend. the fact that the owner refused to take the animal to the vet to begin with shows how he feels about his animals. there is no reason to attack the friend and to go as far as to tell him he should not breed is the most absurd thing i have ever heard. he didnt do this, it wasn't his snake, there is no grounds to say such things. should he have told him?....yes he should have. would it have made a difference? i doubt it. if you dont take your animal to the vet when you see thier insides come out then pointing out the obvious to them isnt going to do much.

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Thanks for defending me.

In the ACTUAL OWNERS defense i dont think he understood the extent of the injury here. To my knowledge i think he prematurly summed it up to some kind of discharge or placenta-like tissue (yes i understand this assumption my have been irresponsible which is why i suggested he go to the vet in the first place).

That being said, i will bring this thread to his attention as soon as i can get a hold of him and talk to him about getting to the vet, thats the best i can do now.

Thanks for everone that helped.

And a few choice words to those that didnt...

Sorry, my reaction is based on 'we waited 2 days before massaging it out' so I am imagining a scenario where you are a part of this breeding process, either as a roomate, close friend, or someone close to the issue. You were one of the people who waited 2 days. You were one of the people who massaged it out. Not your snake by material ownership? Fine. You took the time and energy to come here to seek answers, and then you ignored them despite the potential consequences to the animal. That makes you irresponsible in my mind and brings into question your actual passion for these snakes. Sorry if you disagree, you're perfectly entitled to.

This is why this snake needs a vet... The cloaca (where all the urine/urates and feces collects) also has openings from the intestines, the kidneys, and the oviducts. Hence feces, urates, and eggs all come out of the same place. When the oviduct is traumatized/removed you can have an opening from the cloaca that leads straight into the coelom (the internal body cavity of a snake, like your abdomen). This means bacteria from the feces can enter the body/bloodstream. If this happens she will become septic and die very quickly. Since she has made it this long it is possible that the opening has managed to heal itself, or its possible that as her gut is likely empty that she just hasn't gotten septic yet.

At a bare minimum this snake needs broad spectrum antibiotics and preferably some pain meds. This would be cheap and available at any vet. Any keeper who would not spend this minimal amount to give a captive animal basic medical care, has no business keeping animals. Flame me all you want for that statement but I will stand by it. Palliative care, adoption/surrender, or euthanasia are all better options than just seeing what happens while allowing an animal to suffer.

Ideally she should be worked up fully and scoped to assess internal damage. This is all assuming that the only thing injured with this aggressive palpation was the oviduct.

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Originally Posted by MrLang

Sorry, my reaction is based on 'we waited 2 days before massaging it out' so I am imagining a scenario where you are a part of this breeding process, either as a roomate, close friend, or someone close to the issue. You were one of the people who waited 2 days. You were one of the people who massaged it out. Not your snake by material ownership? Fine. You took the time and energy to come here to seek answers, and then you ignored them despite the potential consequences to the animal. That makes you irresponsible in my mind and brings into question your actual passion for these snakes. Sorry if you disagree, you're perfectly entitled to.

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Ur assumption are hwere you are wrong. I am not part of the breeding. I am not a roommate. He came to me as another snake owner and asked my opinion. I told him to give her a little time to push it out. After 2 days he massaged it out. I was not there. He sent the pic and i posted it . I told him go to the vet. He said he cant.

Where am i wrong? Am i supposed to force him?

Just admit that u jumped the gun and attacked me without knowing the facts. Not here for an argument but i dont like how you are trying to pin this on me.

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Originally Posted by zwhitman

This is why this snake needs a vet... The cloaca (where all the urine/urates and feces collects) also has openings from the intestines, the kidneys, and the oviducts. Hence feces, urates, and eggs all come out of the same place. When the oviduct is traumatized/removed you can have an opening from the cloaca that leads straight into the coelom (the internal body cavity of a snake, like your abdomen). This means bacteria from the feces can enter the body/bloodstream. If this happens she will become septic and die very quickly. Since she has made it this long it is possible that the opening has managed to heal itself, or its possible that as her gut is likely empty that she just hasn't gotten septic yet.

At a bare minimum this snake needs broad spectrum antibiotics and preferably some pain meds. This would be cheap and available at any vet. Any keeper who would not spend this minimal amount to give a captive animal basic medical care, has no business keeping animals. Flame me all you want for that statement but I will stand by it. Palliative care, adoption/surrender, or euthanasia are all better options than just seeing what happens while allowing an animal to suffer.

Ideally she should be worked up fully and scoped to assess internal damage. This is all assuming that the only thing injured with this aggressive palpation was the oviduct.

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So is this similar to a prolapsed uterus? I have seen it happen to sheep and a few other farm animals but I didn't know if it was possible with egg laying things.

I didn't attack you, I took the information YOU posted in this thread and gave a reasonable assessment. The use of the word 'we' is plural... as in you were part of it.

Obviously this is not the case. This is why proper use of the english language is so important for communicating. /nazi

Sorry I have good reading comprehension skills. Based on this last post you made I will say you are fine. The owner of the snake, however, is not. I'm still confused why you didn't just shoot them a text back and give more detail. Maybe if you told the guy the snake will never breed again without medical attention he might listen.

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Originally Posted by sissysnakes

So is this similar to a prolapsed uterus? I have seen it happen to sheep and a few other farm animals but I didn't know if it was possible with egg laying things.

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There are some similarities. The idea of the reproductive tract flipping inside out and protruding outside the body is similar, and the basic risks of infection, bleeding, and septicemia are the same. However the anatomy of a cows uterus and vagina are very different than the oviduct and cloaca of a snake.

You just need to break it to your friend, and ASAP. If you take my "not beating around the bush" as an attack, then sorry, but the snake needs to be at the veterinarians office!

While I completely agree it is the snake owners full responsibility to find out what happened to that poor snake and to make sure it gets the vet care it NEEDS. But when less than responsible pet owners don't do their part that's when others are supposed to step in. Be it family, friends or some type of animal control authority.. and if no one steps in and they know about it, they in my opinion are just as guilty.

I know if I had a friend who was lacking in responsibility, as hard as it may be, I would of still relayed the findings to my friend ASAP and made sure the animal was seen by a vet, I would take it myself if need be. I would rather my friend be upset at me or their self or both than to imagine what kind of pain that snake might be in. Especially if your friend asked you to do any kind of research on the matter, that tells me he/she should be ready for any news.

Such a gut wretching, sad story to read about, an accident turning into abuse/neglect.. sorry if I step on some toes, I always keep my mouth shut as I dont like fighting or drama but when it comes to animals that don't a voice, that's when I speak up. You can't tell me that poor girl didn't feel the pain of her life!! That breaks my heart.. you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that animal needed a vet. By not taking it, i think its abuse.

I kept watching this thread hoping to see an update that included vet care but it hasn't came yet..

Ps if that poor girl makes it, someone would have to be very selfish to ever breed her again.

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Originally Posted by Izzys Keeper

http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l3...3195184955.jpg

My friends spider layed 4 eggs the other day. The 5th one was stuck deep inside her. We waited 2 days before gently massaging it out. It took little effort to get it to slide out. But this stuff came with it! Should we be worried?
She bled a little bit today also...

This is a butterxspider clutch

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I have to agree that your first post reads that you were an active and vested party. WE waited, WE gently massaged it out, and should WE be worried.

Not, HE waited, and HE gently massaged it out and should HE be worried.

I can understand why the replies were directed at you as one half of WE.

Now that he has all this information, has she been taken to the vet now?

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

Oh, for heaven's sake. Now we are defending ourselves when we got called out for being fingerpointing blame faces. I'm not even convinced massaging that slug out was the wrong thing to do---a *qualified herp vet* could have done better, sure, maybe, but it was in there for over 24 hours. That's egg binding. Somebody probably had to massage that egg out, because it would have killed her in another couple of days. Don't make me link to all the places where this forum has advised some owner to palpate something out of their snake, bound eggs included. There's a good chance the friend saved the life of the spider, even if she'll never breed again. After a clutch like that, maybe she should never breed again anyway? Maybe she just wasn't built for it.

Sure, I think a vet trip NOW would be a good idea. Absolutely, I think some antibiotics would be a good idea. Yeah, I think her breeding days are over. But it sounds like maybe she simply wasn't really built quite right for breeding to begin with. IK came here asking for our opinions didn't they? I think they deserve come credit.

And it's not IK's snake, and ultimately not IK's decision. And I think IK has done the right thing, as far as they are able to.

What's done is done. We can urge IK to keep urging their friend to take that spider girl to the vet? But blaming IK is pointless. We're just driving him away. "Friendliest online community", huh? C'mon guys, we can do better.

What's done is done.

I'm frankly pretty disappointed in us right now.

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Originally Posted by loonunit

Oh, for heaven's sake. Now we are defending ourselves when we got called out for being fingerpointing blame faces. I'm not even convinced massaging that slug out was the wrong thing to do---a *qualified herp vet* could have done better, sure, maybe, but it was in there for over 24 hours. That's egg binding. Somebody probably had to massage that egg out, because it would have killed her in another couple of days. Don't make me link to all the places where this forum has advised some owner to palpate something out of their snake, bound eggs included. There's a good chance the friend saved the life of the spider, even if she'll never breed again. After a clutch like that, maybe she should never breed again anyway? Maybe she just wasn't built for it.

Sure, I think a vet trip NOW would be a good idea. Absolutely, I think some antibiotics would be a good idea. Yeah, I think her breeding days are over. But it sounds like maybe she simply wasn't really built quite right for breeding to begin with. IK came here asking for our opinions didn't they? I think they deserve come credit.

And it's not IK's snake, and ultimately not IK's decision. And I think IK has done the right thing, as far as they are able to.

What's done is done. We can urge IK to keep urging their friend to take that spider girl to the vet? But blaming IK is pointless. We're just driving him away. "Friendliest online community", huh? C'mon guys, we can do better.

What's done is done.

I'm frankly pretty disappointed in us right now.

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Thanks.

To clear things up again... I told the owner of the snake everything discussed here as soon as possible

What i dont get is why it is MY resposibilty to take it to the vet. Or MY REPSONSIBILITY to research this topic.

I was merely an observer in this breeding, not a participant. When i saw things got hairy i came here for help. Sorry if my response wasnt as fast as you would like but it wasnt because i was negligent. AS SOON AS I GOT THE INFO I GOT IT TO HIM AS SOON AS I COULD.

i did my part. I dont think i deserve to have to defend myself to a bunch of people that judged me as soon as they saw the picture.

When i said "we" in my first post it was simply because i am the one posting this thread. I didnt realize my comments would be analyzed by forensic scientist looking to pick a fight. Ive lost alot of respect for a lot of people here.

I also think everyone here needs to relax.

Knowing about the situation and advising the owner to take action is all IK can do. Lets be real here. This is a snake, even if they were to call ASPCA or something I doubt they would do anything about it. Best case scenario they would euthanize it. This is not a cute little puppy or kitty. :/

Obviously the snake should be seen by the vet. If the owner is too ignorant to take IKs advice, then that is that. We can't save them all.

There are most likely hundreds of ball pythons out there who die because of improper care, early breeding, or just plain negligence. A forum is not going to be able to save each and every one. Sometimes we just have to take our losses and provide support. It seems to me like this situation was inevitable. If the snake dies, it dies. Lets move on and stop blaming one another for what "should" have happened. There is nothing we can do about it.

We are all passionate about these animals. Questioning someones passion because they wanted to help a friend out is so incredibly wrong on so many levels. The main reason the OP came here was to HELP THE SNAKE. Whats that you say? Thats what you would like as well? What a coincidence!

We are all here for the same reason. Stop treating one another like monsters.

Any updates on how is the SNAKE doing?

Any updates??

Updates on this?