Eyeless Piebald Clutch

We have 3 unrelated Piebalds, 2 females and 1 male. Each female has bred for us before, both in 2010 and one this season. Out of 8 eggs in 2010 only 3 of them made it, so when we got 6 good eggs this year we were really excited. We let them pip on their own and they started coming out today. So far we have 1 perfect high white piebald out of the egg, and three with their heads out. Two of those snakes only have one eye, and one of them doesn't have any eyes. We believe that one of the others that is still in the egg is also missing at least one eye, though we can't know for sure until he's out of the egg. We are impatiently waiting for the other two to come out so we can see what's going on.

This is strange for us. We haven't heard a lot about snakes hatching without eyes, though not a lot of people like to discuss the problems they've had with their own clutches. Does anyone know what might cause snakes to be born without eyes? Especially more than one in a clutch? We're looking at the majority of this clutch being hatched with the same abnormality. The parents are unrelated, and incubator temperatures were perfect (or so we believe), so we can't think of any red-flag problem that has gone on to cause this. Does anyone else have any thoughts? We'd love to hear from you. We have only been breeding snakes for the past 3 seasons, so we certainly have a lot to learn.

We will post full pictures of these guys once they're all out. Right now these are the best pictures we have.

http://allballedup.com/uploads/3/0/7...809776.jpg?340
http://allballedup.com/uploads/3/0/7...922963.jpg?340

Markus Jayne from up in Canada just hatched a snake that doesn't have any eyes.

I've had a few brief talks with him and he's honestly the most helpful breeder than I've come in contact with.

If I were you, I'd get in touch with him.

There's an article about the snake somewhere. I think it might be on worldofballpythons.

A few people on here currently have eyeless ball pythons. To my knowledge they live good lives, eating fine. Check out this thread as well
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...cture-warning*

One of BP.net members also has an eyeless ball python. I forget who it is exactly, but I'm sure they will chime in soon enough. Apparently they fare extremely well in most cases.

I've heard that it could be related to an incubation problem - spike in temps or unstable temps. Sorry about the clutch. It has to heartbreaking to do all that work and end up with this kind of problem.

I think they're cute :) I want one!

There actually seem to be quite a few that I have seen/read about this year. Angllady2 has an eyeless girl, that is grown and doing well. She also has some fires that due to an incubation problem have one or no eyes. Valentine Pirate also just got a couple eyelesss babies from someone. And I believe there was somebody else I have read about recently with them. Seems some if not most of them may be ok. Cute little buggers they are! Hope your thrive for you. Keep us posted on the little guys!

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

Congrats on the clutch! Too bad about the eyes. From what I've gathered, eyeless defects are from incubation errors. Too hot or too cold at some point. If lack of eyes is the only issue, they can still eat and thrive fine.

I would greatly appreciate if you can update the Birth Defect Documentary Thread with your experience. :)

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...cture-warning*



Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

I have a 2900 gram normal female with no eyes and she is the best snake I own. Best eater too. But will only eat live rats. She is also a good breeder

I'm wondering about incubation methods. for example is everyone using vermeculite of the same brand? Does everyone use glad press,n-seal? I does seem like there are more this year than in previous years. I wonder if there is some correlation

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

I have no issue with not throwing an eyeless snake in the freezer, but breeding an eyeless snake is terribly irresponsible.
To toss that additional issue into an already compromised gene pool is deplorable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mykee

I have no issue with not throwing an eyeless snake in the freezer, but breeding an eyeless snake is terribly irresponsible.
To toss that additional issue into an already compromised gene pool is deplorable.

---

Freezing shouldn't be used to cull snakes. There are more humane methods.

It was a very hot summer in the states this year i wonder if that contributed to all the eyeless clutches that seem to be popping up.

Do you guys incubate your eggs in the backyard?
I incubate my eggs in an incubator where I control the temps, not the environment...

I had a clutch a few years ago that had one eyes no eyes and some with eyes. my incubator had stable temps, not saying that temp spikes couldn't cause this condition, I talked to a lot of breeders in my area that been breeding snakes for decades. many things can cause this. you will never know for sure. they all said I had a weak clutch, it happens. never got the eyeless snakes to feed. there were more issues than no eyes. just because mine wouldn't feed, and I tried, even assist feeding. doesn't mean yours won't. the female was a normal breed to a lesser. this is the first year that I placed a male back in with her, she now has 24mm follicles and hopefully has a healthy clutch in a few months. I did breed the male lesser after that without any issues. I could of breed the same 2 snakes again and never have another problem or they might not of been compatible with each other raising the risk of defects. good luck with your hatchlings, I hope everything turns out well. Don

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mykee

Do you guys incubate your eggs in the backyard?
I incubate my eggs in an incubator where I control the temps, not the environment...

---

Not saying the OP did this, but many members do maternal incubation.
Not all maternally incubated eggs are as controlled as in an incubator. Not to mention, I doubt Africa is a place where the temps stay the same for 60 days.

- - - Updated - - -

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mykee

breeding an eyeless snake is terribly irresponsible.
To toss that additional issue into an already compromised gene pool is deplorable.

---

I doubt anyone will breed an eyeless snake based on ethics. But if incubation is the cause of eyelessness, then it wouldn't matter if it breeds since it isn't heritable. However, heritable eyeless snakes are a different matter....

Breeding non-eyed snakes is not heritable, so it is not an irrespondsible act. It's letting these snakes have a full and healthy life, while giving them the opportunity to continue their genes existence. The Culling of snakes should not be done in instances where they have a great chance at a healthy life. There has been many hognose snakes pop up this month with no eyes or one eye. It seems to be something that is happening nationwide right now. When I picked up my new albinos recently, I got to see some of the defected offspring. A local breeder here produced a 1 eyed Albino hog, and the same week, a breeder with the same lines of snakes up north in Dallas, produced a no eyed hog. Snake eats, drinks, and thrives. There are plenty of people who would love to provide a caring home for a no eyed snake, they make the sweetest pets, and can be powerful ambassadors to the benefit of the reptile community.

This ^^ I would actually like to have one with no eyes, I have a soft spot for the animals that need extra love. :). I would welcome one to my collection. I only have breeding plans for half of them, other half purely pets, so it wouldn't matter to me. Especially an eyeless pied, as I would like a pied, but have zero intentions of any sort of recessive breeding projects. So who's to say they can't thrive and find great homes?

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

I have a number of eyeless snakes. One adult and three babies. It does seem to be quite prevalent this season, but I think it's more due to increased flow of information, and perhaps a reduction in the stigma attached to hatching less than perfect snakes making people talk about them more than any real issue.

While some low-lifes will always cull an imperfect animal no matter how minor the flaw, if the snake can feed and shed and defecate and grow normally, I see no good reason to end it's life. Heaven knows I adore my adult female eyeless, and she makes a great ambassador for people who are uncomfortable with snakes.

Of course the decision is yours to make, but I do sincerely hope you will at least give the babies a chance to see if they can thrive or not. Believe it or not, there are a number of people who are willing to give these wonderful animals a home if you decide not to keep them. Several do educational programs with them, and many just want a companion animal.

There are arguments on both sides for breeding these animals or not breeding them. I think it would be mostly a matter of personal choice. If I do decide to adopt my eyeless babies instead of keeping them, I am going to request the adopters not breed them. Of course, I have no way of making sure they do not, but I believe by voicing my thoughts on why they should not be bred, I can get a good idea if potential adopters will or will not breed. I have been asked a number of times about breeding my eyeless adult. And while I believe her condition was caused by an incubation issue and should not be passed on to her offspring, I personally choose not to breed her. I have other breedable females in my collection, and I am not comfortable with the risk however small it might be, of harming her or her potential babies. There is simply no need for me to try and breed her.

I know how you feel about this clutch. One moment so excited and thrilled, and the next your hopes dashed and the crushing burden of guilt that comes with any problem with a hatchling. The endless questions that follow. Did I do something wrong? Could I have prevented this? Should I breed these animals again or not? What will I do if the babies can't survive on their own? Should I tell people this happened? What kind of person/breeder will they think I am if I do tell? Oh believe me I know. The eyeless babies I hatched came from my favorite female. I bred her to my fire male, and I was so excited to get babies from her. I just knew they'd be beautiful. And the first three were everything I had hoped for. Then that first baby with no eyes poked it's head out. I was devastated. Then a second one. Then a third. After everything I had waited and hoped for, to have that happen was almost to much to bear. However, since I was fortunate enough to have adopted an eyeless baby and watch her grow to adulthood, I was a little bit better equipped to deal with it than most, so my babies and I are learning together. If everything goes well, and they continue to feed well, then I will make the choice to keep them or adopt them to the wonderful and willing people here who have already expressed interest in them.

I wish you and your babies all the best.

Gale

I hope they do well for you!

That really sucks :(

I had an eyeless clutch but I had incubation/humidity issues and the snakes were very kinked and deformed as well. It seems like eyeless babies are related to incubation issues, temps/humidity.

I would gladly welcome a one-eyed snake or an eyeless snake into my collection. Especially a pied! That is my favorite morph eyeless or not. :P I have always had a soft spot for imperfections. :)

I'd be curious as to the exact cause...and if temps one way or the other is the supposed culprit, I'd be interested to know at exactly what point during incubation it would have to occur and at what temperatures.

We definitely aren't going to cull these animals as long as missing one or both eyes is their only deformity. Since they aren't even out of the egg yet we don't know the full story. I'm truly hoping they do well regardless of their imperfection and I'm sure they'll be beautiful animals. I already have plans to build a display cage for the one that we know is completely eyeless. I think it will make a great pet. We will likely find homes for the others, as long as they are healthy and good feeders. We'll have to wait and see what happens. We are disappointed that these aren't "perfect" but we've had perfect pieds from this pairing before, so I'm sure we will again.

While I had thought that our incubator was stable, I am starting to believe that there were some problems this year, perhaps due to the temperature of the room the incubator was in, which may have made the incubator warmer than it should have been. Though this was never indicated on the probes we had in the incubator nor on the helix. This is something we'll be looking into on the off-season to make sure that there aren't any incubation issues in the future. We also had a clown clutch in the incubator at the exact same time and on the same level of the incubator, so we're waiting to see if there are any problems with those guys. The one that's out looks perfectly fine, but there are 5 or 6 others that we're waiting to pip. We will post pics of all of the pieds once they're out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by All Balled Up

We definitely aren't going to cull these animals as long as missing one or both eyes is their only deformity. Since they aren't even out of the egg yet we don't know the full story. I'm truly hoping they do well regardless of their imperfection and I'm sure they'll be beautiful animals. I already have plans to build a display cage for the one that we know is completely eyeless. I think it will make a great pet. We will likely find homes for the others, as long as they are healthy and good feeders. We'll have to wait and see what happens. We are disappointed that these aren't "perfect" but we've had perfect pieds from this pairing before, so I'm sure we will again.

While I had thought that our incubator was stable, I am starting to believe that there were some problems this year, perhaps due to the temperature of the room the incubator was in, which may have made the incubator warmer than it should have been. Though this was never indicated on the probes we had in the incubator nor on the helix. This is something we'll be looking into on the off-season to make sure that there aren't any incubation issues in the future. We also had a clown clutch in the incubator at the exact same time and on the same level of the incubator, so we're waiting to see if there are any problems with those guys. The one that's out looks perfectly fine, but there are 5 or 6 others that we're waiting to pip. We will post pics of all of the pieds once they're out.

---

I had my incubator full when incubating the weak clutch with the eye problems. all the others were perfectly fine. I do use the herpstat nd thermostat which has high and low level alarms. which is one of the reasons I went with the nd. knowing I would never use the night drop feature on it which is what the nd stands for. but it has so many other features that I was looking for. using this thermostat for a few years and no regrets on buying it. good luck with the clown clutch, don

man that a shame I have ball python ( pastel ) I got that is blind( eyes are deformed ( but you can see movement in the eyse ) but he doing great. I would sasy if they eat and are visible morphs then keep as pets only ( or I bet like anyone else will say ) let em know and i take the pied that eyeless. I have no problem with that for a pet only snakes. ( these would make a great pet for my mother and myself lin the long run as we both have way too much time on our hands being disable. ) I love to see more pics as they come out.

as for the one I got his eye issue was related to inubatior temp issues ( the guy had some kind of temp issues and the one pastel was the only one that survived ( or had issues) I was given him due to the fact the person qas getting out of snakes and knew I be willnig ot care for it in the long run. the snake was already like 2 years old then.

I hatched one years ago and she is a great breeder, they will do ok, i would feed them frozen as to be on the cautious side not to get injured:D

Sorry to see that :(. We just hatched a eyeless baby (pied x spider) but she's doing great so don't get too down. It might be genetics at play that caused this too. We had 11 perfect clutches hatch and a few around the same time her clutch hatched so we ruled out an incubator issue.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...highlight=side

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by angllady2

While some low-lifes will always cull an imperfect animal no matter how minor the flaw, if the snake can feed and shed and defecate and grow normally, I see no good reason to end it's life. Heaven knows I adore my adult female eyeless, and she makes a great ambassador for people who are uncomfortable with snakes.

---

While I do not agree that it would be "irresponsible" to allow these animals to live in this instance, I also have to take exception to your use of the word "low-life" to describe someone who would cull (HUMANELY -- not by sticking it in a freezer) a baby snake with a deformity.

We don't know what it's like for a snake to grow up without one of its major sense organs. We also don't know for sure whether a given deformity is genetic or not, and as much as anyone may try to find a good, permanent home for their animals, we all know how many times these guys can change hands in their lifetimes. I don't think it is at all unreasonable or unethical to humanely cull deformed offspring rather than risk their dissemination into the gene pool.

IMO, this is a very personal decision for the breeder and I don't believe they should ostracized or called names for EITHER choice. I'm sure it isn't easy to decide to euthanize a newborn clutch.

All that having been said -- in this instance, I would suspect (though can't say for sure) that it is likely due to an incubation fault rather than genetics. The reason for this is that you say that the parents are unrelated, have all bred for you before without producing deformities, and that both (unrelated) clutches are affected.

Since they're the same morph (Piebald), I think it is possible that they are actually all distantly related and all carry the gene for eyelessness. I think if this were my clutch, I would plan on repeating this pairing next year to see what happens. This may sound counter-intuitive, but if you don't do this you will never know for sure and you risk either A. retiring valuable breeders needlessly or B. disseminating a defect gene into the gene pool. If, out of several eggs, you get any eyeless babies a second time around, I would retire all three parents from breeding. If not, I would suspect this to be an incubation fluke.

Best of luck with your baby snakes.

We can't prove whether this is genetic failure, incubation related deformity, or anything else. It would be ridiculous to think that every time an eyeless snake is born it is from the exact same variable. What if it's genetic weakness being encouraged by unstable incubation temps? Maybe this poor gene rides silently in snakes that don't experience incubation spikes. The point is, we have no idea how this comes to be.

I'm firmly of the opinion that no eyeless snake should be bred unless the eye was removed by a bad feeding incident or something AFTER its birth. There is simply no way to justify this in my mind except ignorance to genetics (in which case you shouldn't be breeding animals) or sheer greed (in which case you shouldn't be breeding animals).

- - - Updated - - -

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

Since they're the same morph (Piebald), I think it is possible that they are actually all distantly related and all carry the gene for eyelessness. I think if this were my clutch, I would plan on repeating this pairing next year to see what happens. This may sound counter-intuitive, but if you don't do this you will never know for sure and you risk either A. retiring valuable breeders needlessly or B. disseminating a defect gene into the gene pool. If, out of several eggs, you get any eyeless babies a second time around, I would retire all three parents from breeding. If not, I would suspect this to be an incubation fluke.

---

Science.
http://i919.photobucket.com/albums/a...thloltiger.gif

has anyone ever tried to spay or neuter a snake? If that is feasible then these snake could be sterilized and kept or sold as pets.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrLang

We can't prove whether this is genetic failure, incubation related deformity, or anything else. It would be ridiculous to think that every time an eyeless snake is born it is from the exact same variable. What if it's genetic weakness being encouraged by unstable incubation temps? Maybe this poor gene rides silently in snakes that don't experience incubation spikes. The point is, we have no idea how this comes to be.

---

I agree with this, which is why I want to keep the Defect Documentary thread updated as much as possible.
I would like to see if there is any related correlation or variable. Perhaps we can conclude some sort of cause for certain deformities other than random mutation, temp flux, etc etc..

I actually own an albino Burmese with one eye, she is about 4 months old and is one of the best snakes I own. She is a great eater, though the food has to be alive to get her attention but with a close eye I'm not too worried about it. I had never heard of a snake born in captivity with one or no eyes until I got her then it seems like I've seen a lot of posts about them.

We have seen some eyeless Ball pythons over the years. Never a thriving animal though, always accompanied by some other issue. I don't know if it is nature or nurture, but I do know it has been discussed more frequently as of late-

The Reptile Report- Recent eyeless python stories

I think they'll be great! and, if you need a home for one, get in touch with me =3

If you need to rehome ill spend my time taking care of one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MorphatitusReptiles

If you need to rehome ill spend my time taking care of one.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iPanda

I think they'll be great! and, if you need a home for one, get in touch with me =3

---

This is not the place I would appreciate if you could take this to PM, same for any possible further inquiry.

Thank you

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deborah

This is not the place I would appreciate if you could take this to PM, same for any possible further inquiry.

Thank you

---

oops, my bad >.< newb mistake.

I'm sorry to hear about this. I hope they all do well.

Have they come out of the eggs yet? :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MrLang

We can't prove whether this is genetic failure, incubation related deformity, or anything else. It would be ridiculous to think that every time an eyeless snake is born it is from the exact same variable. What if it's genetic weakness being encouraged by unstable incubation temps? Maybe this poor gene rides silently in snakes that don't experience incubation spikes. The point is, we have no idea how this comes to be.

I'm firmly of the opinion that no eyeless snake should be bred unless the eye was removed by a bad feeding incident or something AFTER its birth. There is simply no way to justify this in my mind except ignorance to genetics (in which case you shouldn't be breeding animals) or sheer greed (in which case you shouldn't be breeding animals).

---

Agreed, and I forgot to mention in my post that, no matter what occurs with the parents of this clutch (whether they are demonstrated to produce eyeless babies again or not; whether there were major notable incubation faults or not), I would absolutely never advise breeding these or ANY deformed offspring. De-novo mutations pop up in captivity all the time ... There's a founder for every mutation. :O

That's why I would not fault or demonize someone who elected to humanely euthanize deformed offspring instead of trying to find a permanent, non-breeder home -- which may to a tall order in this industry, IMO.

They have all finally come out of the egg yesterday. Took longer than normal but I guess that is to be expected with the situation. So all in all we ended up with 3 pieds with no eyes, 2 with one eye, and 1 that is perfectly normal. One of the eyeless pieds also has a slight deformity to it's mouth and also acts a little weird so I am pretty sure something else is going on inside this guy and unfortunate I don't see it doing well. The really high white eyeless one is actually a very active snake. When I had it out for the quick pictures it really didn't want to sit still. just was exploring around which I am hoping this is a good sign that it will thrive. If we get this guy to eat he will be a keeper for sure. I guess the good thing is they all came out on their own and all are good healthy weights and seem to be doing well at the moment. I hope that this continues. Despite their deformities they are all stunning animals. Love the pied gene. No pied is the same and it's a lot of fun. Below are a bunch of pictures of the clutch. Also on another good note all the Clown eggs that we had in the incubator came out of their eggs as well and look great. One of the clowns is very small and it's head is slightly misshaped. After coming out of the egg it looks like it was a twin but the other one died very early on in incubation and this is probably why it is the way it is. These eggs were in the incubator the exact same time frame as the pieds so we were expecting some other issues. Glad there were not though. You can check out our website for the pictures of those guys along with other pictures of the pieds. I don't want to get too picture heavy in the thread.
http://allballedup.com/uploads/3/0/7...57101_orig.jpg
http://allballedup.com/uploads/3/0/7...07/9311459.jpg
http://allballedup.com/uploads/3/0/7...07/5502042.jpg

They look great!

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

wow, those are gorgeous!!!

Very pretty babies, eyes or not. :) I really hope they thrive.

Good luck with them :D They're beautiful

They are so adorable! Thanks for the update!

Thought some of you guys might be interested in this update from Markus Mandic of Markus Jayne reptiles up in Canada. Ya'll aren't the only ones to produce one or no eyed snakes, so nobody needs to be ashamed of their babies. Even the big name breeders do it, but here's one that has owned up to it and is taking care of the snake. Markus really is a good dude in my book.

I basically just asked him how the snake was doing and what he thought caused the "oddity."

So, this is straight from his e-mail reply - The eyeless Bumble Bee Fire is doing great! Eats every time. I think there have always been eyeless snakes hatched but people were afraid to post them. It was a Bumble Bee Fire to Bumble Bee breeding so maybe the Spider X Spider combo had an impact. All I know is when you hatch out over 700 hatchlings a year you do get a few oddities.

Here's a link to the original article about his eyeless guy - http://www.worldofballpythons.com/ar...en-you-see-it/