Need advice: Approaching owner about care

I have been feeding a friendly acquaintances animals while she is out of town on vacation. I met her when I bought my baby beardies from her over two years ago and the animals were well cared for. This last trip has me very concerned.

I built her a rat rack like mine. 6 bins with space for 4 15qt nursing bins. She is missing one bin and all the 15qts are gone because they have been chewed. She has rats in 6 wire cages as well. Rats were all out of water, some loose and had chewed water bottles to get water. Bins are all packed with rats. She has 7 snakes.

Her 1.0 adult beardie is in a 20 long with a lamp, no UVB, and an under tank heater. The sand is covered in poop, dried lettuce, and dead worms. He is very very skinny.
Her 1.1 "juvi" beardies are in an Exo Terra that is taller than it is wide. Same conditions as the adult. These two are from the same clutch as mine and half the size.
1.1 veiled chams, screen cage. No UVB but does have heat lamp. No drip waterer, the water pan that was in there was so flimsy I couldn't get it out without spilling the disgusting contents.
Snakes generally look ok, but they are low maintenance.
Superworms were in oatmeal a few months ago, now are in a thin layer of frass and fed a chocolate chip granola bar. More dead worms than alive. I believe she only feeds supers.

Someone else was suppose to come feed them, but she called me last minute while there are already at their destination and said they couldn't get ahold of him and asked if I could. It wasn't pretty last time I went, but it is just so much worse now. I think she KNOWS how to care for them. Maybe she just thinks she can skimp? She has the internet and access to care sheets like the rest of us.

So my question. What should I do? Should I ask her if she needs help? Should I suggest she sell some of the rats to help pay for lights and screen lids and tanks? Should I tell her that I am too upset by the lack of care and that I won't be able to come feed until she has gotten everything up to par?

That is a brutal situation.

Once we start commenting on people's husbandry, they tend to get very defensive. They take it as a personal attack. The moment you make suggestions, they'll bristle and tell you that they know what they're doing and get mad at you. They'll tell you to get out.

Why?

This exact same thing happened to me. I was asked to come over and babysit a friend's reptiles, and they were in awful condition. The subadult beardie was in an 18" x 18" x 24" exo terra. He had to sit facing a corner just so his tail wouldn't be propped up against the glass. The Leopard gecko was in the same sized exo terra and had only one hide. It was just bad.

When I approached her on the topic, just really mildly, such as: "While you were gone I fed your beardie some veggies. He really loved them. Maybe you could keep up with feeding him veggies, since he loved them!" This was met with: "You fed my beardie new things without my permission?! I gave you pellets to feed him. How dare you make any choices without my approval. I don't care if he likes them! Veggies are bad for beardies!! Gosh you know nothing. I should've never let you babysit!"

It was awful.

And there was nothing I could do to change it. I tried approaching her mildly, friendly, then more assertively, then almost aggressively (telling her that her beardie was going to die a horrible death if she didn't give him UVB and feed him a varied diet instead of just pellets).

Nothing changed.

That was, until I got a phonecall.

"My beardie is having a seizure and I don't know what to do!" I calmly informed her that she had told me not to give her advice anymore and that I warned her her beardie would die without changing it's set-up. Said I wouldn't help her unless she promised not to cut corners anymore and actually listen to suggestions. While crying, she agreed to listen and make changes.

It took her animal almost dying in front of her to realize she was wrong.

And unfortunately, just a few months later, the care reverted again and she got rid of her reptiles. Some people just aren't meant to own animals. Period.

So I can't give you advise one way or another with this, because every situation is different. however, if you feel that this person isn't a close friend, I wouldn't be afraid to stand up and be assertive in this situation. It might not work, but at least you can give her the warning that her animals WILL die and WILL suffer if she doesn't change. And only she controls that.

I know it can get ugly. And this person isn't a close friend. She has asked my advice on her rats in the past, but didn't follow it.

Maybe she is just too cheap? I am not sure. I think I have to say something though for their sakes. I won't be loosing anything if she does get mad.

I don't give a rats ass if it ofends them or not. If they are not taking proper care and not feeding them enough or not at all or letting them live in crap I would tell them and if they don't like it tough! Over crowding and improper care ads up to abuse. Don't be afraid to stand up for the animals.

I know I am saying something. I just want to see what way would be most effective to giving her a wake up call.

I wouldn't beat around the bush about it. A wishy washy approach often times gets no results. Wrong is wrong and right is right. I would be direct and up front about it. I'm not saying flip out and start yelling, but a direct calm approach will probably get the best results (if any). The real problem is that these types of people are well aware of what they are doing...How are they not? Yet they treat the animals like this anyway. It's sad...Good luck.

I would definitely give her the care advice and if she doesn't listen to you contact the Humane Society or SPCA or something because that IS animal abuse, plain and simple. Letting your animals live in filth with no food and water is the DEFINITION of animal abuse. Don't let her get away with it if it continues.

ok if the problems you stating are mostly since they took trip or always going on?
if always then I would ( taking what supplies they have and set up as much as you can properly and nicely ( taking pictures of before and after ) and let them know you had great success with your breadie this way ( again showing a picture of your dragon with something you can comapre to her's with ( like a soda can or a bottle of water ). as for the rats if they are running loose and lack water bottles ( chewed up) I point this out to them and suggest glas bottles since those are longer lasting ( not replaced any yet and i going on 4 yeard) , yeah cost a few bucks more ( up front ) but if you look at replaceing them x number of times ( the plastic ) it be cheaper in long run. as for the number of rats If they not breeding for food or selling ( just happens ) I let know you found some running loose and have yet to caught them all.( pointing out the hazard if they chew though a wire and causes a fire )
I had an issue with moving up north ( not able to legally take my snakes with me ) due to permit issues) and i been paying my mother /niece to take care of them and checking on them each day( and my snakes) their care not been as good as I not had any real production ( but i been putting it off to the high heat and such./) I was always checking morning noon and night on the rats and snakes.

I guess I should take pictures while I am there?

I don't think she lets her rats go without water when she is there. BUT I don't know how long she has been gone before she called me to check them. She only asked me to go on Tuesday and Thursday, but I can't say how long they were without.

I think she tries to keep water in with the beardies, but the small cage and the lights, it is dry in no time. I am not even sure if they recognize the standing water.

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Originally Posted by luvmyballs

I don't give a rats ass if it ofends them or not. If they are not taking proper care and not feeding them enough or not at all or letting them live in crap I would tell them and if they don't like it tough! Over crowding and improper care ads up to abuse. Don't be afraid to stand up for the animals.

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This approach is a good way to cause someone to become even MORE set in their ways. People who treat animals like this oftentimes KNOW they are doing something wrong. If someone challenges them, they'll be even more firm with NOT making changes. They'll accuse you of being wrong, of getting involved, etc etc.

Coming out front and telling them: "You are abusing your animals!!" won't help.

However, finding a way to inform them that their animals care needs to be improved has a higher chance of getting success. No one is saying be wishy-washy about it. No one is saying not to do something. It's the approach. What happens if this person gets mad, tells her to leave, and then worries she'll call the humane society and report her for abuse? She could try to get rid of the animals in a panic, and then there's a whole new issue right there.

I firmly believe that people who neglect or abuse animals have some mental flaw (however minor). Because of this, it can be very hard to get them to change.

I agree that everyone should stick up for the animals, but sometimes sticking up for the animals means finding a way to get the person to change. If that means a gentle approach at first, then that's whats best for the animal. Getting mad at the owner won't help anyone, least of all the innocent critters. However, finding a way to help the owner.... That's what we want, and where the difficulty lies.

I don't think this is happening only while they are on vacation. It couldn't have gotten this bad in even a week.

I know rats breed fast. But I am sure she is well aware of the reptile store we both go to, will willingly buy rats from her. She had the rats separated into groups in the bins at one point. Bin of males, females, grow out, etc. I just don't know what happened.

I would like to think that things have just gotten away from her? That she just needs someone to come and set up her rat colony and go with her to purchase replacement materials. But she has been keeping rats and reptiles longer than I have. I just wonder if it would slip back into the way things are now.

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Originally Posted by Vasiliki

This approach is a good way to cause someone to become even MORE set in their ways. People who treat animals like this oftentimes KNOW they are doing something wrong. If someone challenges them, they'll be even more firm with NOT making changes. They'll accuse you of being wrong, of getting involved, etc etc.

Coming out front and telling them: "You are abusing your animals!!" won't help.

However, finding a way to inform them that their animals care needs to be improved has a higher chance of getting success. No one is saying be wishy-washy about it. No one is saying not to do something. It's the approach. What happens if this person gets mad, tells her to leave, and then worries she'll call the humane society and report her for abuse? She could try to get rid of the animals in a panic, and then there's a whole new issue right there.

I firmly believe that people who n eglect or abuse animals have some mental flaw (however minor). Because of this, it can be very hard to get them to change.

I agree that everyone should stick up for the animals, but sometimes sticking up for the animals means finding a way to get the person to change. If that means a gentle approach at first, then that's whats best for the animal. Getting mad at the owner won't help anyone, least of all the innocent critters. However, finding a way to help the owner.... That's what we want, and where the difficulty lies.

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I disagree . I guess I am just old school. I don't believe in namby pamby with these kind of people. In my experience it's best to take a head on approach . I do agree it might make them a bit resistant at first but I stand by being hard nosed. If you let them know you don't approve of there practices they might change out of fear of being reported or shame. I suppose both ways could work but for me beating around the bush just is not me. In the end its all about the animals....

Well just an update. She said that it was a last minute trip. Still, animals don't get that disgusting in even a weeks time. I told her about the Petco $ per gallon sale and she had no idea about that. She said she also trades rats for crickets at our local reptile store.


I stopped by to transport some of her rats to a friend as it was on my way. I had a few pups of my own and put them in the same container. I had to listen pups screaming while I was on the interstate and all I could do was rattle the bin in the back seat. Sure enough when I got out of the car (15 min drive) there were 2 dead pups, one partially eaten pup, one so mangled I had to whack it, and a few others that were bloody. I was very upset. She just needs new stock and to feed them rodent block.

wait....how old were the other rats that were in the same container....?

I had pups in there and hers were medium. Probably not the smartest idea, but I shuffle pups and pinks around in my own bins and maybe I got complacent. It was a single rat (small/medium) that was doing the mauling as the others were laying down and sleeping. I didn't have another container, she had them in a cardboard box, they are notorious chewers and it was pouring. Looking back I should have known it would happen. A few months ago when I was animal sitting for her at my house for 3 weeks, a mom mauled every single pup and they were born here. When I told her, she blew it off and said it had happened before.
When I delivered them, I told him not to use any for his personal breeding stock. Luckily they were all used as feeders, even the dead ones for his kings.