2011 Hatchlings - Too young to breed?

Afternoon all...

I have a couple of early 2011 hatchlings (females) that are almost up to breeding size, one is 1250g and the other 1300g. These girls have never missed a meal, I have other 2011 female holdbacks that are only 500g-850g.

Question is: If a 2011 hatchling were to reach optimal breeding size before the end of the year would you pair them with a male or are they too young to breed still?

Thanks.

I would pair them up if i were you. I like to think as jkobylka does. The snakes know when they can healthily breed. They most likely won't go due to their age but it won't hurt them if they do, I personally would give it a try.

I probably wouldn't, but I definitely would do so next year. I think they're simply too young, even if they are large.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by el8ch

Afternoon all...

I have a couple of early 2011 hatchlings (females) that are almost up to breeding size, one is 1250g and the other 1300g. These girls have never missed a meal, I have other 2011 female holdbacks that are only 500g-850g.

Question is: If a 2011 hatchling were to reach optimal breeding size before the end of the year would you pair them with a male or are they too young to breed still?

Thanks.

---

If they were born early 2011, and are close to breeding weight, I believe that's considered having 2 winters under their belts which is one of the recommendations for females. Someone with experience in the subject will respond. It's something I'm curious about as well.

I have heard of a few folks breeding them at 18 months if they make the weight, which if born before or around april of 2011 than they are definitely around that 18 month mark. If they arent ready they wont go. I think I would wait and see if I could maximize their production for the next season.

I would give it a shot, just to see if they lock, if they don't then I wouldn't keep putting them together, but I would put them together two days, then give them two days off, then two days in and if nothing is seen, wait another year.

17 months old is as young as I have had females start pairing, they dropped perfect eggs at 24 months old and those resulted in perfect healthy hatchlings.
Those two are breeding again this season after regaining pre-breeding weight + some.

Thanks for the replies everyone.

I checked back through their birthing records and these 2 snakes I am talking about were actually born in April and May respectively. Not as early in the year as I had thought.

My main concern is always the health of my animals, I don't think there is anything stopping me from holding off on pairing them right away and trying for a late clutch after the typical breeding season is completed. We already have 4 or 5 girls that are ready to go come fall, plus some breeding projects with another local facility, so that should keep me busy.

I started breeding my June 2010 female spider in December 2011 when she hit 2200g. She laid this week, 3 eggs and 3 slugs. I weighed her after she laid and she was 1446g. Shes already eating and even looks better than many of my older girls did after they laid.

I wouldnt be surprised if the slugs are due to her being younger, but 3 eggs are more than I would have had if i hadnt bred her. If she keeps eating like she is now Im expecting her to be huge by December.

http://www.iherp.com/Gallery/88170/4...ldMTq0ARL5.jpg

To me it is a combination of weight and age, I would not breed a female younger than 18 months regardless of how big she is.

Patience is key with breeding.

I can hardly stand the wait myself. I have some that I am sure will be up to weight, but not by age. I have to wait another year. :(

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

Im not gunna say yes or no bc i dont really have experience with this yet.

I do know some snakes do reach sexual maturity sooner than others. (im pretty sure RobNJ had an 18month old cinny lay for him this year).

My question for experienced breeders is: if he does pair them this young and theyre not sexually mature yet what negative effects would that have on the female? Or the male? Would it stress the females out enough where they stop eating or something? Would it discourage males at all?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DrDooLittle

I can hardly stand the wait myself. I have some that I am sure will be up to weight, but not by age. I have to wait another year. :(

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

---

I was chatting with your bee earlier. She said she wants to be introduced to the enchi in early spring. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deborah

Patience is key with breeding.

---

:gj: I have no problem waiting, when I tossed the girls on the scale last week I was just surprised to see their weight gain. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike41793

My question for experienced breeders is: if he does pair them this young and theyre not sexually mature yet what negative effects would that have on the female? Or the male? Would it stress the females out enough where they stop eating or something? Would it discourage males at all?

---

Good question Mike, I'd be interested to know the potential 'side effects' as well.

Myth or not... I have heard that If a male will not breed or shows no interest in breeding, introducing another male with him will get him going. At the same time I have also heard this can cause a male breeder to stress and not breed.

I think I'd wait? I secretly probably believe they wouldn't make eggs if they weren't ready, just because two of my 2008 females keep locking me out of the black pastel pied project by stubbornly not laying year after year.... but if you wait, you'll have a HUGE female. She'll give you more eggs if you wait a year, and she'll always BE huge, and will probably give you larger clutches down the road.

Just because they CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD.
Hell, some nine year old humans are capable of producing offspring, but it's a BAD idea.
Everyone's in such a rush these last years, gotta make your money back fast!!! Hurry! Hurry!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by loonunit

.... but if you wait, you'll have a HUGE female. She'll give you more eggs if you wait a year, and she'll always BE huge, and will probably give you larger clutches down the road.

---

That's the plan. If she keeps going at this pace I think she'll be a monster. :taz:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mykee

Hell, some nine year old humans are capable of producing offspring, but it's a BAD idea. Everyone's in such a rush these last years, gotta make your money back fast!!! Hurry! Hurry!

---

Personally, making my money back is no big deal at this point. These girls won't be going in the fall, although I hope they keep packing on the pounds.

And to your first point... yes, that is a BAD idea! :O

I bred my 2010 lemon pastel this past season. She wasn't up to weight and I only paired her three times (the last two times only because she was headed towards ovy). She laid 5 good eggs and they just hatched. Honestly looking back while I do have 5 awesome babies if I could go back and do it again I would probably wait. That being said she was the only 2010 I bred last season and she was the only one giving out huge signs that she wanted to breed.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Most of us are smarter than the snakes that are under our care.
I remember some years ago, when the youngest anyone would consider breeding a female at was three years and 2000g.
Greedy greedy greedy.
Huge congratulations to those who have the knowledge (and willpower) to hold off breeding their females as soon as they think they can get eggs.

Hello, i do not so much years of experience but i did have an "accident" happen to me when i use to keep snakes in tanks. I kept a male normal with a female normal for too long and she got pregant and laid 3 healthy eggs waaayyy early in season and she was under 1000g easy. Well the eggs were laid in december 2011 and didn't make it because they were attached to the yolk but this goes to show you that they will breed if given the chance.

The girl now is 1800g+ & here are her three little eggs
http://img.tapatalk.com/a6937b0f-9771-2634.jpg

This is her 2 days after laying...
http://img.tapatalk.com/a6937b0f-9789-67f5.jpg

I am waiting with Spot. Even though she is well over 1100 grams now at only a year old, I don't want to breed her until she is older. She is too valuable to risk.

Awesome! Good to hear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by loonunit

but if you wait, you'll have a HUGE female. She'll give you more eggs if you wait a year, and she'll always BE huge, and will probably give you larger clutches down the road.

---

I wonder if this works in the wild for them. :confusd: Would this mean that a female in the wild that reaches sexual maturity at 18 months and 800-1000g will always stay small and have small clutches? or would she grow larger and lay larger clutches over time as she matures and grows? I'm not trying to say waiting is a bad thing, but I'm more curious about what happens in the wild since they don't have these "guidelines" that breeders have set up (many things being health/safety issues for the animals - that being a good thing).

what if you have an older female that doesn't get over 1000g? What about an older female under 1000g? or as the op said, a young female at or above the recommended weight? will she be "stunted" if bred early? I'm asking these question for the purpose of discussing and learning. thank you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ladydragon

I wonder if this works in the wild for them. :confusd: Would this mean that a female in the wild that reaches sexual maturity at 18 months and 800-1000g will always stay small and have small clutches? or would she grow larger and lay larger clutches over time as she matures and grows? I'm not trying to say waiting is a bad thing, but I'm more curious about what happens in the wild since they don't have these "guidelines" that breeders have set up (many things being health/safety issues for the animals - that being a good thing).

what if you have an older female that doesn't get over 1000g? What about an older female under 1000g? or as the op said, a young female at or above the recommended weight? will she be "stunted" if bred early? I'm asking these question for the purpose of discussing and learning. thank you.

---

I bred a four year-old virgin female two seasons ago that was sitting steady at 1200g and got three eggs. By the time she finished putting her weight back on, she was over 1700g, so I don't buy into the theory that breeding at a smaller size has any impact on their size farther down the road, as long as they are given the time they need to recover after each laying. I also had a 2010 Lemonblast lay 7 perfect eggs for me this summer, that will be pipping in two weeks! She was 1600+g and 18 months old when I started pairing her (24mos when she dropped eggs).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Annarose15

I bred a four year-old virgin female two seasons ago that was sitting steady at 1200g and got three eggs. By the time she finished putting her weight back on, she was over 1700g, so I don't buy into the theory that breeding at a smaller size has any impact on their size farther down the road, as long as they are given the time they need to recover after each laying. I also had a 2010 Lemonblast lay 7 perfect eggs for me this summer, that will be pipping in two weeks! She was 1600+g and 18 months old when I started pairing her (24mos when she dropped eggs).

---

Kewl.. good stuff to know and congrats on the clutch. This kinda confirms my idea on the subject. When they are ready they know it and are ready, young, older, at the recommended weight or under.. they know. breeders have the guide lines set up for good reasons but sometimes I guess we need to look beyond the box. ty for sharing. :D

My now 3 year old yb female that dropped eggs at 24 months old, is now around/over 2000 grams and doing awesome.
Breeding them young does not make them stay small, nor does it mean they won't ever produce large clutches.