What female for me will eliminate odds of normals?

I have a bumblebee, and only solution I've come up so far is a super pastel. Is it because the pastel in the bee and double pastel in super leave no options for normals?
If that's right does that mean only either another spider (which I don't want to do) is my other option or am I getting it all wrong?

It's just the two pastel genes in the super that would make you not have any normals. Think of a super pastel as being homozygous for that co-dominant trait. Similar to how a visual albino iS homozygous for that recessive trait. When bred to a normal, These homozygous animals will create animals that are heterozygous for the gene they carry. So a super pastel x normal = all normals and an albino x normal = all normals het for albino.

I'm not sure if I helped any but I tried to explain it in a way that makes sense. :)


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SUPER PASTEL x NORMAL = ALL PASTEL!

Sorry it's late and I didn't catch that mistake lol


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Edit:
Mistake corrected

worldofballpythons.com has a genetic calculator that can be of good use to you

@missriss- yeah that helps, thanks!
@JaGv- I thought originally my post had said (according to the genetic wizard from WOB) when I was saying how my solution so far has only been for super pastel, but yes!! I have been a bit obsessed with that genetic wizard...it's so very useful and is helping me learn a lot of new morphs too.
When results are with broken up links...that means no one has created it yet right?


What I've found is that only supers will remove odds of normals...since for example, a pastel lesser won't, but a BEL will.
I dont have the money to afford a super...darn. Haha

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Originally Posted by chelseawhelsee

@missriss- yeah that helps, thanks!
@JaGv- I thought originally my post had said (according to the genetic wizard from WOB) when I was saying how my solution so far has only been for super pastel, but yes!! I have been a bit obsessed with that genetic wizard...it's so very useful and is helping me learn a lot of new morphs too.
When results are with broken up links...that means no one has created it yet right?


What I've found is that only supers will remove odds of normals...since for example, a pastel lesser won't, but a BEL will.
I dont have the money to afford a super...darn. Haha

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yeah anything super does seem to eliminate normals out of the odds. i think the broken links do mean that or someone hasn't provided a picture of them as an example. pastel lesser is double gene not super and the bel is a super. you can always produce a super yourself or go to a reptile show and find a cheap super

Technically the supers are just homozygous recessives like albinos and pieds and they just visually show what would be "hets"...which is co-dominance?! Is that right!??
(it all suddenly became so clear! The bio class I took a year ago has suddenly emerged)
I now feel like this post was unneseccary if I am correct lol

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Hopefully I am right, but it is late haha cuz now I'm also realizing the same applies to the spider gene which gets carried out too...and now I'm trying to draw punnet squares I can't make sense of and confusing myself hahaha

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Originally Posted by JaGv

yeah anything super does seem to eliminate normals out of the odds. i think the broken links do mean that or someone hasn't provided a picture of them as an example. pastel lesser is double gene not super and the bel is a super. you can always produce a super yourself or go to a reptile show and find a cheap super

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True, I am looking to not get a super pastel...and it seems that the super fires/lesser etc.are close to a grand so I will be making one myself in the future haha

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it is said that a pair with the spider gene should never be bred because it is fatal. what bp morphs do you own? your at the right forum stick around and you will learn alot

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Originally Posted by JaGv

it is said that a pair with the spider gene should never be bred because it is fatal. what bp morphs do you own? your at the right forum stick around and you will learn alot

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I have another post where I asked about some "don'ts" and that was one of them, so no super spiders haha

All I have right now (and I can't figure out how to put a signature) is a 1.0 bumblebee. Im in college right now (reason for lack of realistic funds and not wanting to gorge on a big collection) and i'm looking to just purchase one female to breed in 2/3 yrs...so I've been doing my best to figure out what the best choice will be...
And thanks, I definitely will be and this seems like a really good very active forum! :)

i have a male bumble bee too they are one of my favorites. a female pastel would be good to go with him and a good way to get super pastels. but of course if you're new you will also learn about breeding. as for you signature go to settings and on the left side there will be a edit signature link

From what I understand, any homozygous co-dominant animal will produce, at the very least, animals that are heterozygous co-dominant. So a super mojave (BEL) bred to a normal, for instance, will produce nothing but Mojaves. As that super parent passes one gene copy along, and only one copy of the gene is required to produce a visual co-dom morph.

But as far as a Super that isn't jn the $1000+ range....can't help ya lol

Double co doms that are in the blue eyed leucistic complex, which are not supers of a single gene, also will not produce normals if paired to a normal.

For example: a blue eyed leucy which is comprised of the lesser gene, and the Mohave gene, can be bred to a normal and you will only get mojos and Lessers..

I bred a blue eyed leucistic which was a lesser x Russo leucistic to a normal female multiple times and only got russos and Lessers. There was no chance of getting any normals with that pairing even though the male not technically a super and the female was only a normal.

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Originally Posted by JaGv

i have a male bumble bee too they are one of my favorites. a female pastel would be good to go with him and a good way to get super pastels. but of course if you're new you will also learn about breeding. as for you signature go to settings and on the left side there will be a edit signature link

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I love them too! When I JUST got into it when i was figuring out what my first snake would be (I've owned plenty of lizards but lived with a snake-feared mom) and I never really liked the look of normals, and as soon as saw that bumble I was blown away. So happy to have one! I just love the contrast and striping in them! I firstly considered a pastel/ super pastel, but I think seeing that I do want to get a very young female, I personally don't think the pastels are going to hold onto their value for another year or two and I'm trying to breed in three! So I'm looking at maybe a lesser or enchi or fire (and a double gene combo would be AWESOME if it's possible for me), as I like the looks of what they'll produce and what I could hold back. I'm still researching and curious to see the prices at the petaluma show on the 25th and then watch the prices throughout the year.

I'm not looking to be rich or anything, but I am looking to pop out exciting looking babies like my bumble bee and have a fun little breeding experience and I want to make sure my future hatchlings are going to be wanted and have a nice demand for them

@heylookitsjon- thanks for clearing up the genetics a bit, that makes sense. And yeah haha the supers aside from pastels are soo pricey...which is ok for me since I'm not joining with the supply for a good two years lol maybe by then they'll come down and if not I'll just make my own!!

foshi exotic serpeants- thanks for the input! That's interesting with the lesser x Russco that they weren't supers (I haven't heard of the Russcos)... I thought that at least combo x combo would eliminate the normal odds, but the genetic wizard shows me that even my bee x pastel will still give me 1/8 of normals! And even adding a double gene like lesser pastel, I'll still get like 1/16 normals. Is that right?

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Originally Posted by chelseawhelsee

foshi exotic serpeants- thanks for the input! That's interesting with the lesser x Russco that they weren't supers (I haven't heard of the Russcos)... I thought that at least combo x combo would eliminate the normal odds, but the genetic wizard shows me that even my bee x pastel will still give me 1/8 of normals! And even adding a double gene like lesser pastel, I'll still get like 1/16 normals. Is that right?

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Pretty much, kinda.

Without using a "super" (homozygous co-dom animal), you still have that 1/8 or 1/16 or even 1/128 chance, per egg, that you might get a normal. You won't necessarily get 1/8 normals.

If you're pairing morphs with 3+ genes, the likelihood that you will get a normal significantly decreases ... Though of course, you could still have miserable luck and hit on that 1/128 chance with your $15,000 breeding. :O

You also have to consider what else you could potentially produce. If you bred your male bee to a super lesser BEL, probably the "best" (highest-gene animal, if that's what you're going for) you could produce would be a lesser pastel spider. If, however, you bred him to a female pastel lesser (which is actually a less expensive animal), the "best" you could produce would be a super pastel lesser spider. However, you also may get normals with that breeding.

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Originally Posted by JaGv

it is said that a pair with the spider gene should never be bred because it is fatal. what bp morphs do you own? your at the right forum stick around and you will learn alot

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i wish people would stop repeating that it is fatal when there is zero evidence of it, when im not on my phone ill try to find the thread where someone posted actual statistics of their multiple spider x spider breedings, which leads away from lethal theory.

Ball pythons that are known as "co-dominant" are actually incomplete dominants. A pastel is an incomplete dominant gene, and the "complete" version is the super pastel. Same with Mojave, Lesser, Butter, Russo, Special, Etc.

So if you get a female that is the super form of any incomplete dominant, you will have no chance of normals.

A pastel carries one set of pastel genes and one of normal genes.

A super pastel carries two sets of pastel genes.

A pastel can pass on either the pastel or the normal gene to babies.

A super pastel can only pass on a set of pastel genes, thus none of the babies can be normals.

Other options would be leucistic, super cinnamon/black pastel, crystal, ivory, etc.

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You also have to consider what else you could potentially produce. If you bred your male bee to a super lesser BEL, probably the "best" (highest-gene animal, if that's what you're going for) you could produce would be a lesser pastel spider. If, however, you bred him to a female pastel lesser (which is actually a less expensive animal), the "best" you could produce would be a super pastel lesser spider. However, you also may get normals with that breeding.

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Yeah I've noticed the pastel does help me out to add a pastel gene in my female cuz those are some nice odds :) I've been messing around with the generic wizard A LOT lol

@ohhwhataloser -that's true, I did see that thread. I guess I will stop assuming that and see what his outcome is, wether or not it's fatal though, the offspring would nno doubt have a doubled chance of more wobbles right?

@meowmeowkazoo - thanks for that wonderful break down! I definitely would drool to own a super fire! I haven't even looked at some of the super forms youve listed lol gotta go find those :P

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Originally Posted by chelseawhelsee

@ohhwhataloser -that's true, I did see that thread. I guess I will stop assuming that and see what his outcome is, wether or not it's fatal though, the offspring would nno doubt have a doubled chance of more wobbles right?

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found it http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...98#post1847606

"wobble" is not a separate gene. Spider is the wobble gene. So if it's spider, it has the potential to wobble. No one knows how it might act in homozygous form because there hasn't been a proven one. I dont see any reason currently why there would be more wobbles.

we need to stick to just saying facts are what we know, which isn't a whole lot. Theories are fine to discuss, but for some reason they keep becoming "fact".

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Originally Posted by chelseawhelsee

What I've found is that only supers will remove odds of normals...since for example, a pastel lesser won't, but a BEL will.
I dont have the money to afford a super...darn. Haha

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It's not only supers(homozygous trait) that throw no normals ;)

2 genes that are allelic to each other cannot throw normals either.
Superstripes, Crystals, Vanilla Cream, mystic potions....

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Originally Posted by heylookitsjon

But as far as a Super that isn't jn the $1000+ range....can't help ya lol

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Super Pastels and Ivories

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

found it http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...98#post1847606

"wobble" is not a separate gene. Spider is the wobble gene. So if it's spider, it has the potential to wobble. No one knows how it might act in homozygous form because there hasn't been a proven one. I dont see any reason currently why there would be more wobbles.

we need to stick to just saying facts are what we know, which isn't a whole lot. Theories are fine to discuss, but for some reason they keep becoming "fact".

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... How in the heck did I miss that thread?! :O

Also, "wobble" could be a separate gene from "spider" ... But if it is, it's so very tightly linked that there is no way, through simple breeding, to separate them. In goats, the gene for hornlessness (a good trait) is very tightly linked to a gene for hermaphroditism (a bad trait), so even though scientists know they are two separate genes, there's no practical way to separate them ..! (So, it's really pretty much just academic/semantics...)

Also, in response to the last few replies to this thread ... What the heck should we call those "heterozygous for two mutant gene" animals like mojave/lessers, Vanilla Creams, etc.? How about "hetero Super?" Since Super is a made up (unique to the snake world) term anyway, we could just make up a totally new term for these guys -- doesn't have to make a whole ton of sense ....

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

Also, in response to the last few replies to this thread ... What the heck should we call those "heterozygous for two mutant gene" animals like mojave/lessers, Vanilla Creams, etc.? How about "hetero Super?" Since Super is a made up (unique to the snake world) term anyway, we could just make up a totally new term for these guys -- doesn't have to make a whole ton of sense ....

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"Mojave//lesser genotype" ball python means that the ball python has a mojave gene paired with a lesser gene. That makes more sense to me than "hetero super".

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Mating two spider ball pythons would not produce 100% dead embryos. Even if the embryos with two spider genes die, the other embryos would hatch normally. Living babies would have either two normal genes or a spider gene paired with a normal gene.

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

... How in the heck did I miss that thread?! :O

Also, "wobble" could be a separate gene from "spider" ... But if it is, it's so very tightly linked that there is no way, through simple breeding, to separate them. In goats, the gene for hornlessness (a good trait) is very tightly linked to a gene for hermaphroditism (a bad trait), so even though scientists know they are two separate genes, there's no practical way to separate them ..! (So, it's really pretty much just academic/semantics...)

Also, in response to the last few replies to this thread ... What the heck should we call those "heterozygous for two mutant gene" animals like mojave/lessers, Vanilla Creams, etc.? How about "hetero Super?" Since Super is a made up (unique to the snake world) term anyway, we could just make up a totally new term for these guys -- doesn't have to make a whole ton of sense ....

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everyone calls them allelic