Anyone else? Possible positive effect of Burms in Florida?

So, I've been thinking while reading all this info on the recent bans, I haven't seen anyone mention the positive effects these snakes could have (if the topic were researched more) on the Florida ecosystem. My thought: a breeding population=eggs and babies. Aren't most if not all birds there carnivores that EAT small and/or baby swimming things? Correct me if I'm wrong please. And gators? I KNOW gators eat that type of stuff. Their eggs would also be food for the local wildlife... Or would they not create a whole new abundant food source for the local wildlife everyone is concerned about? Oh yea, and I thought gators were so abundant now that they are hunting and culling the big ones en masse? :rolleyes: So why is everyone worried about the snakes eating them then? Otherwise Animal Planet wouldn't have fodder for all these swamp people shows. Am I right or wrong in this line of thinking? I just need clarification cause it's been on my mind for awhile.

It has been suggested that mid to top level predators (such as bobcats) were on the decline in the Everglades, leading to an overpopulation of raccoons and opossums, which eat bird eggs, nestlings, and reptile eggs. Burmese find racoons and opossums to be just the right size for a snack, so may potentially reduce the numbers of these predatory animals, more than making up for the occasional bird they take.

Alligators can eat even quite large Burmese pythons, and would eat pythons of all sizes. All snake-eating animals would enjoy eating baby burms, including the endangered indigo snakes.

No positive effects whatsoever...

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

No positive effects whatsoever...

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I may not have the most popular view on this...but what the hell....here goes anyhow....

I get a little frustrated at all the hysteria about the burms in the Everglades...from all sides. Of course the fear mongerers want to blow everything so far out of proportion it's ridiculous and merges into outright lies. But even well meaning herp lovers and conservationists sometimes get all bent out of shape about the issue. And it's that angst that I don't really get.

Yes, I understand that they're not "native" to the area, but how many other well-established creatures are also imported from around the world? Tons...and they've been coming across on ships since the first explorers found the Americas and started traveling here. And not just the Everglades, but all over the world. Sometimes, humans aren't even involved...animals and organisms find all sorts of ways to travel and find new territories and new ways of passing on their genetics to the next generation. They don't care who was there first or if they "belong" there.

The world has NEVER been some kind of static space where every bit of flora and fauna had its particular boundary that it was not allowed to cross. Since the dawn of time, creation or evolution or whatever you believe in, plants and animals and all organisms, have been shifting, moving, evolving, and learning to adapt and fit in wherever they find themselves, and learning to adapt and fit in with whatever else moves in. Thousands upon thousands of species have gone extinct...and humans are only responsible for a tiny fraction of that number. It's just the circle of life.

I DO believe we should do our best to be good stewards of this amazing world. I believe it's what we're here to do. And I believe we should do what we can to prevent invasive species from gaining a foothold, if/when we can. But there is a balance to all of that, as there should be in everything we do. And to be so closed-minded and hard headed as to insist there can be no single benefit to a new species in a particular part of the world just seems...silly....to me. Not to mention a very stress-filled way to live life.

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Originally Posted by JLC

I may not have the most popular view on this...but what the hell....here goes anyhow....

I get a little frustrated at all the hysteria about the burms in the Everglades...from all sides. Of course the fear mongerers want to blow everything so far out of proportion it's ridiculous and merges into outright lies. But even well meaning herp lovers and conservationists sometimes get all bent out of shape about the issue. And it's that angst that I don't really get.

Yes, I understand that they're not "native" to the area, but how many other well-established creatures are also imported from around the world? Tons...and they've been coming across on ships since the first explorers found the Americas and started traveling here. And not just the Everglades, but all over the world. Sometimes, humans aren't even involved...animals and organisms find all sorts of ways to travel and find new territories and new ways of passing on their genetics to the next generation. They don't care who was there first or if they "belong" there.

The world has NEVER been some kind of static space where every bit of flora and fauna had its particular boundary that it was not allowed to cross. Since the dawn of time, creation or evolution or whatever you believe in, plants and animals and all organisms, have been shifting, moving, evolving, and learning to adapt and fit in wherever they find themselves, and learning to adapt and fit in with whatever else moves in. Thousands upon thousands of species have gone extinct...and humans are only responsible for a tiny fraction of that number. It's just the circle of life.

I DO believe we should do our best to be good stewards of this amazing world. I believe it's what we're here to do. And I believe we should do what we can to prevent invasive species from gaining a foothold, if/when we can. But there is a balance to all of that, as there should be in everything we do. And to be so closed-minded and hard headed as to insist there can be no single benefit to a new species in a particular part of the world just seems...silly....to me. Not to mention a very stress-filled way to live life.

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i agree... if its gonna happen its gonna happen..

Does anyone have facts showing all the predicted negative effects?

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Originally Posted by JLC

I may not have the most popular view on this...but what the hell....here goes anyhow....

I get a little frustrated at all the hysteria about the burms in the Everglades...from all sides. Of course the fear mongerers want to blow everything so far out of proportion it's ridiculous and merges into outright lies. But even well meaning herp lovers and conservationists sometimes get all bent out of shape about the issue. And it's that angst that I don't really get.

Yes, I understand that they're not "native" to the area, but how many other well-established creatures are also imported from around the world? Tons...and they've been coming across on ships since the first explorers found the Americas and started traveling here. And not just the Everglades, but all over the world. Sometimes, humans aren't even involved...animals and organisms find all sorts of ways to travel and find new territories and new ways of passing on their genetics to the next generation. They don't care who was there first or if they "belong" there.

The world has NEVER been some kind of static space where every bit of flora and fauna had its particular boundary that it was not allowed to cross. Since the dawn of time, creation or evolution or whatever you believe in, plants and animals and all organisms, have been shifting, moving, evolving, and learning to adapt and fit in wherever they find themselves, and learning to adapt and fit in with whatever else moves in. Thousands upon thousands of species have gone extinct...and humans are only responsible for a tiny fraction of that number. It's just the circle of life.

I DO believe we should do our best to be good stewards of this amazing world. I believe it's what we're here to do. And I believe we should do what we can to prevent invasive species from gaining a foothold, if/when we can. But there is a balance to all of that, as there should be in everything we do. And to be so closed-minded and hard headed as to insist there can be no single benefit to a new species in a particular part of the world just seems...silly....to me. Not to mention a very stress-filled way to live life.

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I agree 100%. It may not be a best case scenario but it is what it is. I really don't think there are as many as folks want to say there are anyway though, I think the media blows it completely out of proportion, just to public something else to look at that makes them go oooh and aaaah. The news ONLY reports what they think people will watch so their sponsors will keep giving them money. That is why you only see horrible stuff in the news and I think a lot of this goes back to that. They report and come up with a hundred different statistics to say what they want the population to think. Statistics can be used to say ANYTHING, just depends on how creative you can be. Do I think having evasive species in ANY ecosystem is a good thing... NO, but it is a problem we have and we have to deal with it.

Ok yes, technically, it is natural for ecosystems to change due to new species coming in, new niches being formed, etc. The thing is, exotic species introduced by humans is not a natural process. Would Burmese pythons have ever ended up in Florida without humans to bring them there? The chances are ridiculously low. How about rabbits in Australia? For those who don't know about Australian ecology, it is relatively fragile, and the introduction of rabbits by humans led to huge amounts of native flora being destroyed in a very short time span. This wouldn't have happened without humans to bring them there.

Now, you are partially right. Many exotic species are introduced and either die off or have no effect whatsoever. A very small percentage of them even have a positive effect on an ecosystem. And then there are those that are eventually "officially" classified as an invasive species, which become well established in the area they are introduced to and start to show the possibility of having a negative effect on the ecosystem. Rabbits in Australia are a good example of this. So are the Asian ladybugs (the orange-y, bitey ladybugs that you see nowadays instead of the bright red, passive ones - which, as a side note, we introduced on purpose to get rid of Asian aphids that were introduced on accident). As far as I understand, the Burmese python is still being carefully studied to determine whether or not it is negatively affecting the Everglades. At this point it is, at the very least, well established in the area, which is the first step towards becoming an invasive species and makes ecologists nervous.

No, the world's ecosystems are not static and never have been. But exotic species introduced by humans cause changes far more quickly than would happen without our involvement.

Sorry, this is a bit of a hot-button issue for me. I'm an aquatic ecologist and have done work in the northern Wisconsin lakes to study the presence and effect of invasive species. It's a bit frustrating to always see the "Oh well, who cares, nature will figure it out" attitude when all of the previously unique ecosystems are slowly blurring into a homogeneous mess of the same group of species.

Absolutely true--it's not really introduced species that is the problem, it's a reduction in biodiversity that is a problem. If an introduced species causes a decrease in biodiversity, then it's bad. If it doesn't, then it's probably not really that bad.

Fair enough, but I'm not a 'proponent' of them being released into the wild...

I'd call it as it is as well, which is another one of many environmental anthropogenic fails that ultimately doesn't matter very much at all on the grand scheme of environmental anthropogenic fail.

This will come off as doom and gloom but so long as man exists, invasive species will be a problem. On a whole we lack either the insight or the ability to prevent this from occuring. Can anyone here say zebra muscles, chinese carp, kudzu?

As far as what belongs where, we are looking at a blip on the time line and saying that this shouldn't be. However if you look at the green tree python and emarald tree boas there is no doubt that both stem from the same roots back when pangea existed. The seperation has caused each to adapt a little differently, but not that much.

The issue in the everglades while unfortnate, is still basically isolated to the everglades. So the fact that the rest of the herp community across the nation is all up in arms is soemwhat ridiculous. How many of the people who have taken either side on this matter have even been there, or are directly affected by it other then the persecution of your hobby? Some of you will be able to say you have, most will not.

So the question going forward is do we let nature balance itself out, which it will, or further impose man's idea of what is right/good for the everglades/world, and do something to try and correct the situation. I have no doubt if we intervene, we will just be debating the next ill effect that arises from the efforts in the future. Just my $0.02

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I forgot to add since a few have cited the loss of biodiversity, the next time everybody is congratulating a breeder for the newest enchi spider YB ghost DH albino pied, you might want to revisit the definition of biodiversity again.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Does anyone have facts showing all the predicted negative effects?

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Ditto^^ Anyone have any info proving this? I honestly haven't seen anything really definitive, just speculation on the part of wildlife officials... I'm not being facetious, I'd like to get a better personal view on this.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Absolutely true--it's not really introduced species that is the problem, it's a reduction in biodiversity that is a problem. If an introduced species causes a decrease in biodiversity, then it's bad. If it doesn't, then it's probably not really that bad.

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Yep. Balance.

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Originally Posted by MrLang

Fair enough, but I'm not a 'proponent' of them being released into the wild...

I'd call it as it is as well, which is another one of many environmental anthropogenic fails that ultimately doesn't matter very much at all on the grand scheme of environmental anthropogenic fail.

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Agreed.

JLC, I generally agree with your stance on this. Our world is always evolving to accommodate new species/environments. That's it's way. Yes, humans progress it by introducing animals to places they're not normally found... but nature does this on it's own as well. Introduced species often hitch a ride with other animals that relocate of their own accord. And environments adapt and change accordingly. Sometimes entire species are wiped out by this natural means... just sayin'. I would just think, since Florida has many of it's own natural predators and such, has anyone done any research on the impact from the other side of the coin? How many of these hatchlings are reaching maturity and big enough to be top of the food chain adn really be a nuisance? Everything I've read says that Burms have been in thst area for quite sometime... a few decades that this point. There has also been a huge boom in the gator population during this time. That has been attributed to it's previously protected status but I don't think it's far fetched to theorize the new Burm baby food source COULD have affected that.

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Originally Posted by rlditmars

This will come off as doom and gloom but so long as man exists, invasive species will be a problem. On a whole we lack either the insight or the ability to prevent this from occuring. Can anyone here say zebra muscles, chinese carp, kudzu?

As far as what belongs where, we are looking at a blip on the time line and saying that this shouldn't be. However if you look at the green tree python and emarald tree boas there is no doubt that both stem from the same roots back when pangea existed. The seperation has caused each to adapt a little differently, but not that much.

The issue in the everglades while unfortnate, is still basically isolated to the everglades. So the fact that the rest of the herp community across the nation is all up in arms is soemwhat ridiculous. How many of the people who have taken either side on this matter have even been there, or are directly affected by it other then the persecution of your hobby? Some of you will be able to say you have, most will not.

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Invasive species can occur without man's intervention and has repeatedly happened across several hundred million years. At some point, many species considered native today would have once be considered invasive. I'm not down playing man's role in invasive species today but let's not be hyperbolic about it.

I believe green tree pythons and emerald tree boas are an example of convergent evolution. Their shared common ancestor has little to do with their present appearances other than both being in suborder Serpentes.

The herp community is up in arms because this issue in the everglades is being used to ban herps and their transport across the nation. I fail to see what's ridiculous about being concerned about a topic that has already forced many people to give up portions of their livelihood and others to forcibly lose their pets.

I am waiting to see some reliable studies about what's going on there. So far, it appears the research behind most of the studies have been seriously flawed. The Everglades National Park biologists have found no dramatic reduction in mammal populations so I'm not sure to what extent, if any, of damage has been done by their presence.

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Originally Posted by Jabberwocky Dragons

Invasive species can occur without man's intervention and has repeatedly happened across several hundred million years. At some point, many species considered native today would have once be considered invasive. I'm not down playing man's role in invasive species today but let's not be hyperbolic about it.

I believe green tree pythons and emerald tree boas are an example of convergent evolution. Their shared common ancestor has little to do with their present appearances other than both being in suborder Serpentes.

The herp community is up in arms because this issue in the everglades is being used to ban herps and their transport across the nation. I fail to see what's ridiculous about being concerned about a topic that has already forced many people to give up portions of their livelihood and others to forcibly lose their pets.

I am waiting to see some reliable studies about what's going on there. So far, it appears the research behind most of the studies have been seriously flawed. The Everglades National Park biologists have found no dramatic reduction in mammal populations so I'm not sure to what extent, if any, of damage has been done by their presence.

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I am not denying that the issue of the everglades has been used to seperate some hobbyists from their animals. But we stand on opposite sides waving our pitchforks and torches at one another over this very tiny ecosystem that is isolated to one small portion of one state. Our defense of a position in this matter is giving it more weight and life then is deserved. I think it would serve the herp community better to be asking the fear mongers to produce evidence of the problem, elsewhere in the country. Take the focus away from the everglades and put the onus back on them.

While invasive species can happen under a number of circumstances, it is usually less of an impact when it occurs naturally. A beetle hitches a ride on a floating coconut, deer swim to a nearby island, a burr attaches itself to the fur of an animal that ranges, etc. These are not great distances traveled or drastically different habitats, so the changes are small and more diffused than invasive. But I believe man can and has done more in the last 100 years to propogate the problem of invasive species than has likely occured naturally in the last 100,000. Through indulgence, ignorance, or arrogance we simply won't, can't or don't see the potential for a negative outcome. I don't think that is being hyperbolic.

Here is my argument, for arguments sake.

I hear this all the time. Humans caused this and humans caused that and since humans did it, it isn't natural.

I'm sorry, but I am not under the impression that humans are aliens and came to earth just to screw it up. I believe that we have a right to be here, just like all of the plants and animals of this world. Now that doesn't mean what we do to our precious marble isn't destructive, but it is indeed a NATURAL occurrence. The things we do are just as natural as a giraffe taking a dump on the savannah.

Just because humans were involved in the transportation of a species to a new environment does not mean that occurrence wasn't natural. Everything humans have done have been possible because of what the earth has given us. Nothing more. Humans are part of the ecosystem as well, whether you like it or not. I'm not saying what we have done is RIGHT, but it is in fact NATURAL.

That is, unless you all think we are ALIENS!!! :D

You dont have to go halfway around the world anymore to see these awesome snakes in the wild:gj:

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Originally Posted by iCandiBallPythons

You dont have to go halfway around the world anymore to see these awesome snakes in the wild:gj:

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You sir, are someone who finds the silver lining in the darkest of circumstance. Very well done.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

I'm sorry, but I am not under the impression that humans are aliens and came to earth just to screw it up.

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Sometimes I kind of wish we were. At least then we'd have a good excuse.

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Originally Posted by gruneaugen86

Sometimes I kind of wish we were. At least then we'd have a good excuse.

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Yeah. I guess our excuse now can be "we are just horrible". lol Humans are very destructive, but that is just how we strive. Eventually the environment will show us who is boss, which is already happening a little with all of these crazy natural disasters we have been having recently. It's natural population control.

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Originally Posted by rlditmars

You sir, are someone who finds the silver lining in the darkest of circumstance. Very well done.

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:gj: I concur.