Any major "don'ts" to know heading into the breeding world??

Hi, I'm new to this site and thought I'd start with this question.

I am just getting started with breeding ball pythons and only have a 1.0 bee to start off with.

While doing my research and looking around at all the morphs and possibilities...I am curious...are there any major don'ts that I should avoid?
I am overall just concerned with producing unhealthy babies that can have health issues (extreme head wobbles...more susceptible to respiratory infections...)or breeding morphs that will only bring me mass die offs of hatchtlings.


Having a 1.0 bee, I have read somewhere that one "don't" is to breed spiders/bees together.

I have also seen on the champagne spider page that it says that all shortly have died after birth.

So I guess things like that.. Morphs that don't do well when combined and result in poor health in offspring. Or is that a common reality in this industry that I will have to face if I want to reach higher end combo morphs?

This video (2 parts) goes over most of the Bad combos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uStCAKMbnqQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uStCAKMbnqQ

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These can be easily avoided... but keep in mind ANY pairing has the potential to produce an animal that fails to thrive. You have to be prepared for this though it isn't very common.

For some reason it won't let me post part 2... I'll see if I can fix it but if not it is easy to find via Google.

the only major dont i can think of is not to exploit the animals. make sure you can take care of the babies and your collection. make sure you do enough research about husbandry and what to do in the breeding season. if you do all these things right and still your babies turn bad or with defects. theres nothing else you can do. the spider wobble, i think is pretty cool!

Part 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fhnR5YdGdI&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fhnR...feature=relmfu

Thank you for the replies and the video!

I love my bumble bee, and going into this breeding world I am not looking at it with only "money!!!" in my eyes. I have bred leopard geckos and Chinese water Dragons when I was younger, and now that I can keep snakes (my mom was absolutely terrified of them) the ball pythons and their beautiful variety of morphs definitely gets me hooked and excited to try breeding again.

I am taking into the consideration of these chances for having failures, but to avoid them the best I can is a major thing for me.
I have also been hearing people say "then breed it back to the male/female", are these also things that can create a higher risk by inbreeding your pythons? It's another thing I want to steer clear of even if it makes me getting to a higher morph more of a challenge.

Quote:

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the spider wobble, i think is pretty cool!

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I've seen it in a few at my local reptile store, and I think they look ill...it like worries me and makes me anxious seeing an animal have some sort of physical defect like that. They just don't look right in the head shaking and wobbling like that...

Thank you for your input, and those videos were much appreciated.

Inbreeding doesn't have the same effects in reptiles as it does in say dogs. Yes there will be issues if you line breed for many generations, but 2-3 generations doesn't seem to cause any noticeable damage. In some cases it is necessary to crete more a a morph (mainly recessive morphs)

You do know that any morph crossed with a spider will have wobble to some degree (like Bees) 9 times out of 10 wobble is barely noticeable, and does't impact the snake in any negative way. (also it's not a physical defect, it is a neurological defect)

oh duh, yeah, I mean neurological...lol

I did not know inbreeding with snakes would not be the same as it does like dogs. I just assumed that inbreeding was the source for all these problems, but I know nothing and am still learning which is why I've made this thread...I just have seen some sad posts about hatchlings and have been told things by others, and now that I am thinking of breeding myself, I don't want to run away from it all without researching it.

I read too that the incubation process can be a big factor to problems in hatchlings so I can't blame it all on genetics/ the snakes themselves.

With what stickyalvinroll said, I can just do my best in perfecting their husbandry and making sure I do things right with incubation.

And I guess I've been naive thinking that if my bee doesn't show any wobbles at all doesn't mean it won't produce offspring with wobbles (correct?) because obviously he has the spider gene in it, and he was just a lucky chance to not have/show any...and thats good to hear it doesn't have a negative impact on them. I had assumed that it did... Sorry, I must sound very naive lol

Your bee can start to show wobble at any point in its life, and any offspring could be low or high wobble... It is completely unpredictable, and can show up at anytime. Most spiders don't show it unless they are stressed or very excited. As I said before 9 times out of 10 it never causes any issues... The issue is that when it does people freak out. I personally feel that it is one of the most over blown things in this hobby.

It can have a negative impact on them but it is extremely rare for that to be the case. Basically it has to be bad enough that they cannot eat on their own.

The wobble is part of the spiders genetics ALL spiders/spider combos have it. Most simply don't display noticeable symptoms.

My bees have slight wobbles. Personally, i find it adds more personality :p my wobbly little babies!

Theirs is mild though, and they eat and whatnot perfectly fine. My little bee would eat and eat if I'd let him ;)

DON'T......expect to get rich.

@theserpentmerchant- thanks for replying, its good to know that it's a very common thing, and with the wobbles I think i have assumed it to be the more of a problem than it is.I appreciate your opinion.
@bobbafet- aw well I'm glad all of yours are healthy and eating perfectly! How many bees do you have?? That makes me feel better about it knowing that the wobbles do not effect them negatively cuz I had assumed they were going to be weaker with eating etc. than thos that don't.

@mikeandsheleen- I appreciate your warning as I bet a lot of people do. It's definitely not an expectation of mine at all to think I'm going to get rich. When I was younger I bred leopard geckos and had that mindset...definitely learned it wasn't going to happen at all. I really just see it as a slow growing and exciting hobby for me now that im getting back into reptiles and my local reptile shop that I got my bee from will purchase all of my hatchlings from me so I'm just happy all my hatchlings will have a home immediately.

Maybe this isn't quite what you're looking for, but ...

I just dealt with (or rather, didn't quite end up dealing with) a very new collector who seemed to be making some mistakes, so here are a few insights I'd offer that I don't think anyone told this kid.

Don't jump into things head-first without first doing a lot of research and at least having some idea of what various morphs are supposed to look like, and what produces what. (And, as you are doing, what not to breed -- so you're off to a good start.) Some morphs are subtle, and it can be useful to get the opinion of those more experienced, but if you have to ask if a snake is a pastel, piebald or other fairly "obvious" one, you probably should've done a bit more research before spending your money. If you can train your eye to pick up even more subtle nuances, so much the better.

Along the same lines, don't blindly trust the word of a seller if things don't seem right to you. Sometimes more experienced people can make a mistake. It happens. Also, some people aren't as honest as they should be. The BOI can help with that, but using your judgement and your own eye for morphs can help too.

You've probably run across this one before, but don't buy a snake just because it's cheap. There are great deals out there and cheap does not inherently equal poor-quality, but if it is a really poor-quality example of a morph, it's probably better to wait until a better one comes along even if the price is right. Alternately, if it's gorgeous but has some other issue (hates eating, recurrent UTIs, etc.) -- steer clear. That could be a good way to breed those crappy, weak genes you're talking about avoiding into your collection.

... As far as lethal combos, don't breed mosaic to mosaic or TOV to TOV ... Oh, wait, that's chinchillas. :P

Thanks so much for the advice :) whether or not it's to do with genetics specifically or just dealing with the business, it's all appreciated and these types of don'ts are really helpful to :)

I've been thinking REALLY hard of what my first female to get will be, and the more I'm on this forum reading and researching other sites and playing with the world of ball python's genetic wizard I am getting a broader idea of how difficult my decision is going to be! Im slowly gaining a better eye for the basic morphs and their sometimes subtle differences (just learned how to tell the fire morph by the headstamp!) And learning more designers. First i was considering a lesser pastel, but I've been now wanting to figure out something a little more unique like getting an enchi lesser or something.

Also I would probably get a younger female since its not as high in price, and I've been trying to figure out what will hold value in 2/3 years! I like this type of thinking to figure it all out, like a puzzle kind of.

I think I am only going to buy snakes from shows or my local reptile shop since I've never been quite comfortable with buying online. Mostly cuz I would always prefer to see the animals in person before buying and also cuz I don't think I could trust a seller easily unless it was from a reputable breeder.

I am definitely a quality over quantity girl and picked up a my bumble bee over spider with a tiny wobble for double it's price as my first ball python (also was just a prettier morph itself) :P so definitely not commiting to a weaker snake just to save some money! Good reminder tho and I'll be keeping that as a top priority in my collection, quality of looks and life!

You breed chinchillas? Out of curiosity, what happens to a TOCxTOC?

Everyone pretty much covered the Don't as far as I can see but I do have to comment on the spider wobble... All spider and spider combos wobble no matter what anyone says. It can be as mild as a tiny little head tilt, looking up for no reason for long period of times, to corkscrewing constantly... It is commonly thought that "Well mine doesn't shake or anything like that so it must not have it" Well it is a spider and the wobble is part of the gene that makes it have the pattern it has. Some display a mild wobble like a head tilt when hatched and gets worse as they age and others do the exact reverse. I have a lot of spiders and spider combos right now and I have seen all degree of the wobble. I think it should actually be called the twitch because that is what it looks like in most, just a minor twitch from time to time kind of like a mild spasm I guess you could say. I do not think that anyone should be discouraged from having a spider because of the wobble and honestly the spider and spider combos I have hatched have had the fastest first meal as well as the best growth throughout their lives.

Ok I have rambled on enough about the spider and the wobble so I will shut up about that now.

Hi tattlife, thanks for the input! someone had previously explained to me that the wobble is embedded with the spider gene, but back when I purchased my bee I didn't know or that it was exclusive to the spider gene. I guess it was just my expample to show that I would rather pay a higher price for a healthy looking animal than getting the latter for a cheaper price and at the time I assumed that the wobble would negatively effect the snake in its well being. :P

That makes me really happy to hear that you've found really strong hatchlings that strive great in the gene itself!

Actually I did mean to comment on that "lethal gene" thing.

With chinchillas, breeding either TOV x TOV (TOV is a black animal with a white belly) or mosaic x mosaic (mosaic is a white or silver animal, generally), you will never get a homozygous animal as expected. Both TOV and mosaic are dominant genes that have been around for 60+ years, but nobody has ever produced a homozygous animal of either mutation. Also, it has been observed by ranchers that, when adding up totals of babies produced, TOV x TOV or mosaic x mosaic breedings have 25% fewer babies than expected.

The conclusion that has been drawn, therefore, is that the homozygous TOV and homozygous mosaic are both lethal. What we assume is happening is that the embryo dies very early in gestation and is resorbed by the mother. Resorption of fertilized embryos actually happens fairly frequently in mammals such as chinchillas and dogs.

People still say not to breed these mutation together for fear that the resorption will hurt the mother, or that the fetus will get a bit bigger and block her uterus (or something like that). I've never heard of this happening (and I have friends who had bred these together for years without complications) and I really think it may be unfounded as I suspect the resorption happens early enough so as not to cause a problem. However, I still won't breed them together (right now -- may chance in the future) as I don't feel like risking having 1/4 of the babies die. Chins only have 1-3 babies per litter, so that's quite a loss ...

Okay, what the heck does that have to do with snakes ..? Well, for spider x spider, as with the chinchilla mutations, nobody has ever SEEN a dead homozygous spider, or had a female spider from a spider x spider breeding get eggbound or blocked or have any kind of problems. In fact, it isn't even known for certain that the homozygous spider is lethal. I think you absolutely could breed spider x spider with no problems at all. I've spoken to many people who have done it and never heard of an issue.

In my mind, the biggest reason to avoid any dominant x dominant breeding (including things like pinstripe x pinstripe or woma x woma) is that you don't have much to gain from it, IMO. You might get 75% spiders instead of 50% spiders, but that's about it. We know there's no "visual super," so even if it's straight-up dominant with no lethality involved, you still can't tell the homozygous animals from the heterozygotes. So, I just don't see the point ... I'd rather breed my spider to my pinstripe to try to shoot for a spinner than a pin to pin to try to shoot for ... Tons of pinstripes. :P

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...98#post1901498

FYI

Don't skip, shorten, or breach QUARANTINE. Don't move any animal out of quarantine that isn't feeding regularly and well. You will hear different advice on how long quarantine should be. Quarantine should be at least 12 months. There are collection killer viruses that incubate for up to 10 months, with no more symptoms than a sketchy appetite (intermittent feeding, not fasting).

The spider wobble is a genetic issue that is probably a neurological defect, but in reality we do not know whether it is neurological, an inner ear problem, or even a muscular problem. Most people are guessing neurological. (Neurological defects are physical defects, by the way--it is not a psychological problem).

A spider can start life with no discernible wobble, and go on to become a trainwreck later in life if the condition is triggered by something. Heavy stress can trigger it. Many spiders develop wobbles due to shipping stress, for example, or after a home move.

I have a spider who had a mild to moderate wobble when I got him. He now approaches his food upside-down, after having had an RI a couple of years ago. I've never seen anything like it--the entire upper half of his body, completely inverted.

The important thing is, he approaches his food--he's a very eager feeder, so whatever the wobble is, it does not appear to cause the animal any actual distress. Discomfort and disorientation would be stressful, and ball pythons go off feed if you change their bedding type, or put in a different brand of light bulb, so obviously the wobble isn't bothering the animals. They eat and breed just fine.

Babies produced by a spider with a wobble do not appear any more likely to have it than those produced by a spider that doesn't have a noticeable wobble.

To produce healthy babies, pay attention to three things:
Good husbandry for the adults--good thermostats, attention to humidity, cleanliness, etc.
Plenty of food for moms. Good nutrition makes big, healthy eggs--don't let mom get obese, though, or she's likely to slug out.
Get a UPS for your incubator. I'm getting one myself after this year's disastrous results, where several clutches were affected by a power outage. Temperatures dropping too low, or spiking too high, at the wrong point in incubation can have devastating effects on the development of the embryo, and they seem to be sensitive for substantial periods of time during incubation. Issues caused by temperature problems include wobbles, missing eyes (one or both), spinal kinks, jaw deformities, fused bodies, and worse. These problems aren't heritable, if the animal manages to survive them (many do not--and must be euthanized), but no one will want to breed animals with these problems, 'just in case'--in case the problem wasn't due to a temperature issue, in case the animal has internal issues that might cause death if it is bred, etc.

Most incubators are expensive, so people tend to make their own. There can be issues maintaining stable temperatures in a homemade incubator, particularly if it's new and you've not had a season to test it. I recommend not going that route at first. Buy a couple of hovabators, and hook them up to good quality thermostats (Herpstat, VE, Helix). They will hold temperatures well without breaking the bank, and without the risk of testing a homemade incubator by using it, instead of setting it up and monitoring it empty for a season.
Of course, if you can afford it, a good quality commercial reptile incubator isn't something you will regret buying.