Why do you pair mulriple sires w/ one female?

Hello everybody. = P I was talking to my fiance about future pairings and got to thinking about why anyone woukd use multiple sires for a singkr female.
The only reasons I coukd think of were if you want to produce multiple morphs with a low number of clutches so you went for a spkit clutch, or if you got a splut cluth full of codoms then yiur chances of recognizing a chimera are higger( thougg of course it wouldnt effect your odds of getting one).

Personally, I like the idea of knowing with 100% certainty that my percentage chance of getting THIS morph is THIS higg you know? With multiple sires most odds are really up in the air arent they?
So lets hear it. Why do YOU do it. And how has it worked out for you? Ever get a super awesome clutch as a result?

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sorry for the typos my phone went platinum won't let me fix it.=(

I think the biggest reason is to make sure the job gets done. Sometimes snakes lock but the female doesnt get pregnant. Usually people just throw a second male in as reassurance

i would think to get a variety of morphs one may be aiming to hatch out

Well even though the snakes lockup doesnt mean the female will get knocked up. (Same with humans haha). So if you put a second male in then it will raise your chances. Especially if you dont see them lock up at all. Bc sometimes theyll do it and youll never see them so you dont know for sure. Also as long as your careful and dont do a stupid pairing then you can end up with multiple sires. By stupid pairing i mean you wouldnt wanna pair a pastel and a hypo to a normal. Because then you dont know if any normals you produce are 100%het hypos or just normals from the pastel daddy. If you do a hypo mojo and a hypo to a het hypo female then that would be fine. Beause all the babies have an equal chance at being het hypo. Im pretty sure i said all that right haha :gj:

Wow thatreally is an incredibly ideal scenario for multiple sires haha. And I havent had my first clutch yet, but are the odds of impregnating the female really low enough to do thag though? I was under the impression you just kept pairing till you were sure. I mean they male would have months to do the job in theory right? If id seen multiple locks and she wasnt gravid after that long I would start questioning fertility I think. But youre right that is a quick way to make SURE you did all you could as fast as possible.

Sometimes I switch co-dom males just because I've changed my mind about what I want. Sometimes it's because I want both outcomes. For example, if I have only one super pastel female and I want a pastel enchi, but I also really want a pastel het red, I might put both enchi and het red males in with her. But, as others have said, sometimes it's just last minute panic--if you haven't seen a lock or aren't sure if male #1 did the job and prior years indicate that ovulation might be imminent. Hope this helps.

I suppose that makes sense. Man, it would kill me not to know exactly what to expect haha. But in a scenario like that you guys are right I would be happier to be expecting at all and not know, rather than stick to my guns and wind up with nothing.

I think a "who's your daddy" clutch adds even more excitement to breeding because there are so many more possibilities that could pop out. I can't wait for my "who's your daddy" clutch to hatch and see who got the job done. :P

a local breeder bred his pinstripe to a female that he bred his desert to the previous year and wound up with three desert pins and a few pins

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Originally Posted by mustang91302

a local breeder bred his pinstripe to a female that he bred his desert to the previous year and wound up with three desert pins and a few pins

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Was the female a pinstripe? If not, then it's not possible to produce a desert pin from breeding a male desert and pin to a the same female (unless the female was also a desert but I don't believe those have been successfully bred yet). Both males can't father the same baby.

My husband paired four different males to his normal female this season. He got a baby from at least three of the four males, and possibly all four. To me that's cool. So far she's hatched a lesser, a pastel, and a woma. We are waiting to see if there is a spider or another woma still to hatch.

Now, by the same token, two of my females are paired with a single male only, because I have specific babies and looks I want.

Gale

Man, a whose your daddy clutch sounds like fun. I think im gonna make a thing out of it. Raise up a big female I expect many eggs from, pair her with four distinct codom males, and have all my friends place bets. Closest guess morph for morph takes the pot. Ill throw a party for the cutting and everything haha. Yup. Totally doing it. Well hey, at the very least now if I ever have a normal female I just dont know what to do with I can make a game out of it.

It's all about what your personal breeding goals are. Who's your daddy clutches seem like a lot of fun, but for my first season there's a very specific pair I want to try out for a certain combo. Back when I got my first snakes I wanted a pastave, but wasn't impressed by the ones that just looked like mojave hatchlings that were a little more yellow. I went out and bought the most yellow blushed out pastel I could afford and a light mojave male. The hope is that the pastaves will be some smoking little critters, but I won't know until after this season :D

People breed multiple males (usually newbies) because they dont have enough faith in their males.
I use one male per female (I keep two of every "good" male I have). I either get what I want or I get nothing.
I refuse to breed a "junkier" third-string male to get junky babies just to get babies.

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Originally Posted by mykee

People breed multiple males (usually newbies) because they dont have enough faith in their males.
I use one male per female (I keep two of every "good" male I have). I either get what I want or I get nothing.
I refuse to breed a "junkier" third-string male to get junky babies just to get babies.

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I know of quite a few breeders who do double and triple sired clutches. I guess these bigger breeders are producing junk then, huh?

If all of your males are quality...

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Originally Posted by heathers*bps

I know of quite a few breeders who do double and triple sired clutches. I guess these bigger breeders are producing junk then, huh?

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:gj:

Nothing wrong with increasing your odds!

Just because you have a proven male breeder does not mean they will get the job done with every female every year. Also there is nothing stopping the female from refusing a particular male. Doubling up is just a way to increase your odds, or to lean your breeding goals in one direction or the other.

Reassurance I my eyes. You want to make sure you hit that ovy so more makes the better.

A good reason to use multiple males is proven males versus young males.

This past year I bred a proven clown male to a proven het clown female but then started backing him up with a first year (2011) male pastel clown that got to size. Either way everything is het clown and there "should" be clowns. Just depends if I get the pastel clown to be the dad or not :)

I think this is a great way to use multiple sires. Banking on a young male being your backup and being an "upgrade" to the proven male.

Hope that helps! :)

Because I can :gj: or maybe because I am a newbie pairing junky males :rolleyes: :rofl:

If I have no specific preference on the future outcome and know I will be happy either way with what comes out of it I will pair 2 males to a female. If I plan on very specific results than only one male is used.

Sometimes it also helps if the female is not receptive to a certain male then I introduce another one. (that is granted I don't have specific expectations).

Ultimately depends on your plans, this year I needed some enchi and mystic females so I pair them both to a few females, got what I needed and even got a double sired clutch both males are high qualities and both males are great breeders.

Next season my kingpin and POG will likely share a few females as well spider & bee most likely because again no preference here I will be happy with either outcomes.

Who's your daddy clutches are always fun.

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Originally Posted by heathers*bps

I know of quite a few breeders who do double and triple sired clutches. I guess these bigger breeders are producing junk then, huh?

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he seems to be on a troll roll today

I did a yb male and a honeybee male to the same girl this year. Not something I would recommend (mixing recessive with anything else) but I did know what the outcome I could expect from the pairing before hand. I changed my mind mid season and when my yb went off feed decided to try for spiders het hypo instead. Looks like the yb got it done, but it was exciting to see what hatched out. I was one female short and I had 3 untried males so everyone got to practice, this year everyone gets their own girl though = ). However, no one but my double het albino pied got to touch my het pied girl, I was not messing with her!

I do multiple males only with the normal and codom females... But not only does it insure the job gets done but it makes it Xmas in the summer for me. It's all in fun so why not make things a surprise.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

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Originally Posted by JaGv

he seems to be on a troll roll today

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:rofl: did you see his reply to my pastel x pastel clutch thread? I litereally lol'ed.

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Originally Posted by heathers*bps

:rofl: did you see his reply to my pastel x pastel clutch thread? I litereally lol'ed.

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Yeah, what the heck was that all about???

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

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Originally Posted by heathers*bps

:rofl: did you see his reply to my pastel x pastel clutch thread? I litereally lol'ed.

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yeah that was uncalled for

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Originally Posted by mykee

People breed multiple males (usually newbies) because they dont have enough faith in their males.
I use one male per female (I keep two of every "good" male I have). I either get what I want or I get nothing.
I refuse to breed a "junkier" third-string male to get junky babies just to get babies.

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I suggest you keep your know-nothing bottom of the shelf comments to yourself.

You don't know me, and you don't know my snakes. I don't have any "junky third string males" for your information, looser. All of my males are top quality examples of their morph, the best I could find. So don't you dare suggest that just because I don't care if I get an exceptional Pastave, an exceptional Vanilla Mojave, or an exceptional Savannah that I'm breeding "just to make junky babies" you twirp.

My fire babies are some of the brightest anyone has ever seen. My vanillas are super bright and clean. And my husbands female produced not only a beautiful Lesser girl but a stunning Woma girl, there is nothing third string about those babies. Maybe his pastel isn't something to write home about, but now we know she doesn't make the best pastels so we know not to pair her to pastel in the future.

Of course there are plenty of people out there who breed whatever to whatever just to make babies no matter the quality, but don't blanket statement that only newbies and junk breeders pair more than one male to a female.

Gale

This years breeding was all four females ran through all four males. I'm in it just to have a little fun right now. The upcoming season is a different story, though. One male for four females:




[IMG]http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/1410/img0913vo.jpg[/IMG]

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Originally Posted by angllady2

I suggest you keep your know-nothing bottom of the shelf comments to yourself.

You don't know me, and you don't know my snakes. I don't have any "junky third string males" for your information, looser. All of my males are top quality examples of their morph, the best I could find. So don't you dare suggest that just because I don't care if I get an exceptional Pastave, an exceptional Vanilla Mojave, or an exceptional Savannah that I'm breeding "just to make junky babies" you twirp.

My fire babies are some of the brightest anyone has ever seen. My vanillas are super bright and clean. And my husbands female produced not only a beautiful Lesser girl but a stunning Woma girl, there is nothing third string about those babies. Maybe his pastel isn't something to write home about, but now we know she doesn't make the best pastels so we know not to pair her to pastel in the future.

Of course there are plenty of people out there who breed whatever to whatever just to make babies no matter the quality, but don't blanket statement that only newbies and junk breeders pair more than one male to a female.

Gale

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:clap:

You GO Gale!
X2 agree


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

I like you gale. you got dat fiyah!

Anyway, Ill admit it. My spider and 1 female normal arent the greatest quality. But the female isnt ever getting bred. I love her too much. And my spider has a beautiful pattern, im just not a big fan of his pixely sides. BUT my pastel is GEORGOUS. So im hoping she can offset that part mostly. I dont think id call any BP morphs junk, because evwn the uglier ones still dont look bad im my eyes. Just not shining examples of their morph. Thats just me though.

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I like you gale. you got dat fiyah!

Anyway, Ill admit it. My spider and 1 female normal arent the greatest quality. But the female isnt ever getting bred. I love her too much. And my spider has a beautiful pattern, im just not a big fan of his pixely sides. BUT my pastel is GEORGOUS. So im hoping she can offset that part mostly. I dont think id call any BP morphs junk, because evwn the uglier ones still dont look bad im my eyes. Just not shining examples of their morph. Thats just me though.

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"I suggest you keep your know-nothing bottom of the shelf comments to yourself.

You don't know me, and you don't know my snakes. I don't have any "junky third string males" for your information, looser. All of my males are top quality examples of their morph, the best I could find. So don't you dare suggest that just because I don't care if I get an exceptional Pastave, an exceptional Vanilla Mojave, or an exceptional Savannah that I'm breeding "just to make junky babies" you twirp.

My fire babies are some of the brightest anyone has ever seen. My vanillas are super bright and clean. And my husbands female produced not only a beautiful Lesser girl but a stunning Woma girl, there is nothing third string about those babies. Maybe his pastel isn't something to write home about, but now we know she doesn't make the best pastels so we know not to pair her to pastel in the future.

Of course there are plenty of people out there who breed whatever to whatever just to make babies no matter the quality, but don't blanket statement that only newbies and junk breeders pair more than one male to a female.

Gale"

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Lol.
Maybe it's just me, but I breed with a purpose. Myabe it's because I've been breeding for a LOT longer than you, but I don't just throw multiple males in with females to produce SOMETHING. I breed to produce what I want, limiting "chance" as much as I can.
Trust your males.
Or don't and just produce anything to have more animals to sell.
I don't care what you do.
Congrats on all your random singles and doubles though...
Harpee.

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"If I have no specific preference on the future outcome and know I will be happy either way with what comes out of it I will pair 2 males to a female. If I plan on very specific results than only one male is used. "

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THAT is a wonderful way to look at it.

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Originally Posted by mykee

Lol.
Maybe it's just me, but I breed with a purpose. Myabe it's because I've been breeding for a LOT longer than you, but I don't just throw multiple males in with females to produce SOMETHING. I breed to produce what I want, limiting "chance" as much as I can.
Trust your males.
Or don't and just produce anything to have more animals to sell.
I don't care what you do.
Congrats on all your random singles and doubles though...
Harpee.

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THAT is a wonderful way to look at it.

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So what you are saying sir, is that with the mentality that youre going to be fine with whatever pops out, it is okay to pair multiple sires with one dame.

But if you are trying to make sure that your dame is in fact gravid and pair her with multiple snakes you create these junky morphs.

Now, whats bugging me is that the snakes themselves are not changing nor are the pairings in these two scenarios. You would wind up with the same results because there is no difference between the two. Unless of course mentality can improve or deteriorate the quality of a snakes pattern of course. Please correct me if im wrong.

On another note, I would like to say that I dont beleive any BP breeder would ever throw random snakes together just to have a clutch, and for a veteran breeder such as yourself, you cant seem to tell the difference between multiple desired pairings, and randomly generated pairings. Fledgling breeders buy ball pythons to start out. They buy specific morphs that they PLAN to breed with a certain few other morphs. If you own a snake and plan you breed it you are already not throwing random snakes together. the moment you buy it every opposite sex BP in that collection becomes a possible pairing.

Last rail, I promise. If no one put random snakes together in the effort to pompously "breed with a purpose" how many less morphs do you think would be available to us today?

Random singles and doubles hmm?

What part of I don't care if I get an exceptional Pastave OR an exceptional Savannah do you not understand ? If I have one outstanding Mojave female [ which I do ] why does it make more sense to pair her this season with ONLY my fantastic pastel, and next season with ONLY my to die for cinnamon, than to put both of my top notch males with her this season and just see what happens?

Why, if I desire to make BOTH Pastaves and Savannahs, I am required { according to you } to own TWO top quality Mojave females ? Maybe I can only find one that I think is the best. So then, according to you, I must ONLY ever breed her to one male per season. It would take me forever to produce the babies I want doing it that way. Maybe you want to take a lifetime to produce something special, I do not.

If on the other hand, I own one magnificent cinnamon female, and since I cannot decide if she will make stellar Pewters OR Cinnabees the likes of which have never been seen, then I am going to pair BOTH my Pastel male and my Spider male to her. If I am fortunate and produce one of each baby, then I can choose which carries the look I desire most, and repeat the pairing that produced that look. And if both of the babies are so outstanding I can sell them for $100 over market value ? Then guess what ? Next season both males get to visit her again.

You breed as you like, sir.

But don't force your ideas on others by talking down about what they do.

Gale

Yeah yeah yeah, we get it: you have outstanding examples of every morph you own, they're wonderful, gorgeous and perfect in every conceivable way. The best of the best.
My point was this: Newer breeders tend to go with the whole "Who's your Daddy" clutches because, like yourself, you have equally-valued and genetically similar one and two gene males so it really doesn't matter whether you get one "outstanding double" or another "outstanding double". That's fine when you're breeding singles and doubles to like snakes.
The kink arises when you have four and five gene animals breeding three, four and five gene animals. Then you really have to focus your breeding to work with the genetics you have, hence the bigger breeders with more established collections won't be breeding multiple (different) males to their females.

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"I am required { according to you } to own TWO top quality Mojave females "

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Nope, two males. But only if you consider a mojave a "top notch" breeding animal.....

Riv; sorry I can't respond to your post, but I honestly could not understand most of what you said.

I am going to point out at this point in time that 2 + 1 = 3.

I am also going to point out that if I ever decide to spend thousands of dollars on a 4+ gene snake, I won't be buying it from Mykee.

One other reason you would breed multiple males to a female is to increase your odds at a split clutch. As someone with a small and growing collection, the idea of being able to hit 2 of the combos I'm looking for out of a single female with 1 clutch instead of 2 is very, very appealing.

Mykee, youve defiunitely succeeded in making a mule of yourself. If you dont understand what I was saying than I doubt your ability to comprehend the english language. The mentality of the breeder does not effect the genetics of the snake. So what youre thinking going into a clutch with multiple sires makes no difference. Whether you dont mind the outcome, or whether you want to be SURE she is pregnant, they would still be the same snake trio with the same genetic make up, and would yeild the same quality of morph. I was simply calling you out the hypocrisy of your post. Condeming one reason to pair multiple sires, while backing another.

You have insinuated that the quality of the morph is deteriorated by the fact that the dame had multiple sires which is absolutely untrue. Nobody and I do mean nobody strives to breed a sub par snake, and its unfair of you to say that anyone elses breeders are sub par compared to your own. And in all of your "experience" you have failed to realize the diversity that pairing two snakes that normally wouldnt be paired can bring into this business. Thats how new morphs are discovered in the first place.

On top of that you disrespect and condescend to those who breed with multiple sires, assuming that their snakes are less quality when you dont know anything about them, their collection, or what they produce.

For instancce. I dont like yellow bellies. I dont find them attractive at all. Without knowing their super form I may have considered them junky snakes with stupid yellow parts, not worth breeding because the pastel has a more vibrant color that covers the entire body as opposed to just the sides. But somebody took a chance and bred them together producing the ivory, a beautiful beautiful morph. By saying that no one should experiment even with the uglies, goes against everything that ball pythons breeders strive for. You go ahead and stick with your closed minded, boring plans, and kindly do not repost here. I cant speak for anyone else hear, but I do not care to hear anything else you have to say.

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Originally Posted by mykee

Yeah yeah yeah, we get it: you have outstanding examples of every morph you own, they're wonderful, gorgeous and perfect in every conceivable way. The best of the best.
My point was this: Newer breeders tend to go with the whole "Who's your Daddy" clutches because, like yourself, you have equally-valued and genetically similar one and two gene males so it really doesn't matter whether you get one "outstanding double" or another "outstanding double". That's fine when you're breeding singles and doubles to like snakes.
The kink arises when you have four and five gene animals breeding three, four and five gene animals. Then you really have to focus your breeding to work with the genetics you have, hence the bigger breeders with more established collections won't be breeding multiple (different) males to their females.


Nope, two males. But only if you consider a mojave a "top notch" breeding animal.....

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Why would you not pair 2 4 gene makes to your 5 gene female? are you afraid you won't know what comes out of the eggs?

To me it seems like an insurance policy, one of then will get the job done and of you are lucky, both will.

Your comments are not helpful, nor correct.

Oh and I would love to see pics of your collection since you have been at this so much longer than all of us. It must be right up there with NERDS!

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

Riv, you completely misunderstood what I meant by "junky" males. I agree that I may have used the wrong word to described a less expensive, less genetically diverse male for breeding purposes. What I meant by "junky" was breeding a pastel male (the "junky" one) to back up your super pastel mojave pinstripe hypo. The "junky" comment wasn't a dig on the animal itself or it's quality, but my comparison to a more genetically diverse animal.

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"The mentality of the breeder does not effect the genetics of the snake. So what you're thinking going into a clutch with multiple sires makes no difference. Whether you don't mind the outcome, or whether you want to be SURE she is pregnant, they would still be the same snake trio with the same genetic make up, and would yield the same quality of morph. "

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I have a wonderful grasp of the English language, but the above is another example of the train of thought that I simply don't understand. Too hippy dippy for me to wrap my head around, sorry.

well SOMEONE^ here definitely won the
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a90...E_So_troll.jpg