Maybe it's just me, but...

I've been a snake keeper since I was 5 years old (I'm now 27). I've watched the industry grow, become more and more popular every year. And in the last 10 years or so, the ball python industry especially. Now, before I say anything else, I just want to make sure that nobody takes this as me bashing anyone. This is not my intention at all. I just don't really understand the whole 'morph' thing. I mean, maybe I'm just different but I see more and more people thinking that they are going to get rich off of breeding ball pythons. I don't like this one bit. When I buy a snake, the last thing I'm thinking about is how much money I can make off of it. And yes, I do own a Salmon RTB, but I bought him because I wanted a beautiful snake as a pet. And I care for him just as much as I do all of my normal snakes. I just feel like this industry has become so overly saturated that it's quite ridiculous. If you're buying a morph because you want a gorgeous animal as a pet, then by all means go for it. But to spend tons of money on a snake because you think it's going to make you rich is absurd. Not to mention, the animals deserve more respect than that. I see the same thing with dog breeders in my area. What I'm getting at is... If you plan to start breeding snakes, make sure you're doing it for the right reasons. And don't expect to make a living off of it, because it's not an easy thing to do.

Now, I respect anyone who cares about their snakes. But those that are in it simply for money, I say go get a job.

My apologies if this post comes off as offensive. I just felt like getting this off my chest.

I say, go stuff yourself.

You are entirely entitled to your opinion, and I have no problems with it. However, it's JUST your opinion.

There are plenty of people making a decent living at breeding snakes, many of whom are members right here. I understand your views, but I don't agree with your arrogance (something with which I am WELL familiar) in flat out telling people they shouldn't be in it for the money. Who are YOU again, squirt?

Sure most fail in making a living, but show me a business, any business, that's 100% successful for 100% of the people who get in it. How come breeding snakes can't be the job you're encouraging people to go out and get? What makes it wrong to try to make it on your own?

I don't understand guys like you, and there's a site that's just full of your compatriots that you may feel quite at home on, that feel quite free to do what they feel, and feel quite free to squash the dreams and aspirations of those who choose to do things another way.

I get, sort of, that you have a great care for the snakes, but are you on dog sites and cat sites and horse sites, any site that involves live animals and their reproduction and sale, shoveling this load to them or is it just reserved for this little site here? If you are, then kudos to you. If you're not, why not? Scared? Don't care? What?

What's fine and dandy for you, just you, is not necessarily dandy or fine for anyone else, though I do respect your right to say so, just as you'll no doubt respect mine to publicly disagree.

This is exactly why I made it clear that I wasn't trying to bash anyone. And the name calling? Come on... You said it yourself, we're all entitled to our own opinion. I was just trying to make conversation and explain my point of view. But you won't see me calling names, bashing anyone, or trying to make someone feel stupid for feeling a certain way. To each his own.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by William C

I just feel like this industry has become so overly saturated that it's quite ridiculous. If you're buying a morph because you want a gorgeous animal as a pet, then by all means go for it. But to spend tons of money on a snake because you think it's going to make you rich is absurd. Not to mention, the animals deserve more respect than that. I see the same thing with dog breeders in my area. What I'm getting at is... If you plan to start breeding snakes, make sure you're doing it for the right reasons. And don't expect to make a living off of it, because it's not an easy thing to do.

Now, I respect anyone who cares about their snakes. But those that are in it simply for money, I say go get a job.

My apologies if this post comes off as offensive. I just felt like getting this off my chest.

---

You apologized because you KNEW it was offensive.

Your entire post is not your opinion, it's a declaration- don't breed balls for a living, it's not only bad for the snakes, it's impossible.

Your 'right' reasons are great for you, but much like those in the god club of choice, if I ain't a member, tell me again why I should have to follow your well meant 'advice' any more than the rules of any other club to which I do not belong?

Perhaps different wording, or tack, would have put your so-called opinion in a more flavoursome easily palatable conversation generating way, but as you wrote it, all of that was lacking.

For me.

I have to agree with Wilomn. You are completely entitled to your opinion but I find it insulting that you insinuate that people are in it for the money care less for their snakes than people who just keep them as pets.

There is nothing wrong with dreaming big and I think most people are realistic about breeding. I will openly admit that I hope to make some money breeding and I have a few I bought for the sole purpose of someday making a profit from breeding. That doesn't mean I don't give them proper care or enjoy taking care of them. I also understand that while I may dream big and hope a clutch turns out a certain way that I could (depending on the pairing) end up with nothing but male normals.

I personally believe that anyone who gets into breeding for the purpose of just making a quick buck isn't going to be doing it long. It is a lot of work and one of those things you have to enjoy doing to succeed at. There are people who greatly succeed at breeding and they have the same passion for reptiles as you do, if they didn't they wouldn't be where they are today and they wouldn't be producing morphs that make most of us drool. Just because you don't really care for morphs doesn't mean everyone doesn't. To most this is a hobby and a passion and breeding helps them continue to maintain that.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

I think that as long as the breeder is keeping the animals healthy and giving them the right enviroment to thrive, then they can breed all they want. Even if they are in it just for the money. That doesn't mean they are going to mistreat the animals. I think it would be difficult to maintain a breeding business if you don't like the animals though. You'd get tired of cleaning them and whatnot. But then again, if it makes you enough money, it'd be worth it. Everybody that breeds as a hobby probably knows exactly how much money they could sell the babies for, just like a non-hobbyist does.

After I get a few years of breeding corns under my belt, I'm going to branch out to other snakes. Even if I don't particularily like them as much as other species. Probably go with the best seller at the time. Now, does that mean I'm not going to take good care of them like I do for my corns? No. It just means that I might not handle them as much as the corns. As far as care goes, they will all get treated the same. I love all the different snake species, I just have favorites. And yes, I will buy the morphs that I like, while knowing exactly how much the babies will go for.

Well, again my apologies. I just can't help but feel the way I do. I do not know any of you personally, and am not trying to attack anyone in particular. It just seems to me that the money is overpowering the fact that these are animals that deserve love and respect. I'm sorry if you took my post as a personal attack and I wish you all the best with your breeding projects. But my point was.... people that get into it simply to make money disgust me. I never said there was anything wrong with dreaming big. Do what makes you happy. But make sure you know what you're getting yourself into.

As long as the animals are properly cared for, why should it matter if people breed for money?
Personally, I do it for fun and because I enjoy the hobby. I love the beauty of certain morphs and combinations that could only be achieved through breeding. My snakes are well cared for. They have freshwater, clean enclosures, and food in their bellies weekly. I don't expect to ever make a profit, but it's nice to have money to put back into the snakes and pay for their care.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by William C

Do what makes you happy. But make sure you know what you're getting yourself into.

---

Sage advice.

Think about it like this.... people that breed simply for money will sell a snake to the first person that has the cash. It's like a pet store, they sell a pet without knowing what is going to happen after that pet makes it to its new home. These people buying your morphs might not have a clue how to take care of it. So basically the snake is doomed from the start. Just like when I purchased my Salmon boa, nobody asked me if I knew anything about how to care for snakes. I paid them, and the snake was shipped immediately. That, in my opinion, seems like they don't care what happens to the snakes after they are sold. I don't care if you agree with me or not, but that is just wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by William C

Think about it like this.... people that breed simply for money will sell a snake to the first person that has the cash. It's like a pet store, they sell a pet without knowing what is going to happen after that pet makes it to its new home. These people buying your morphs might not have a clue how to take care of it. So basically the snake is doomed from the start. Just like when I purchased my Salmon boa, nobody asked me if I knew anything about how to care for snakes. I paid them, and the snake was shipped immediately. That, in my opinion, seems like they don't care what happens to the snakes after they are sold. I don't care if you agree with me or not, but that is just wrong.

---

And you, for allowing this wrongness to continue, share no blame? You're the other end of the deal purchasing from someone you wouldn't sell to.

Can you say, "double standard?"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by William C

Well, again my apologies. I just can't help but feel the way I do. I do not know any of you personally, and am not trying to attack anyone in particular. It just seems to me that the money is overpowering the fact that these are animals that deserve love and respect. I'm sorry if you took my post as a personal attack and I wish you all the best with your breeding projects. But my point was.... people that get into it simply to make money disgust me. I never said there was anything wrong with dreaming big. Do what makes you happy. But make sure you know what you're getting yourself into.

---

I've asked it in other similar threads and I'll ask it again here and maybe this time I'll get an answer...

Who are these people that are just in it for the money?

Who is willing to regularly clean cages, deal with emails asking for photos that never respond back, keep the countless records required, put in the time to breed your own rats or the expense and time to feed f/t, did I mentioned regularly clean cages... etc. if you dislike snakes. If you like snakes, you obviously can't be in it "just for the money" because you enjoy what you do. Who do you know that dislikes reptiles but does all of the work required to keep them on such a level as to turn a profit. Anyone?

There are plenty of other jobs that require much less work for a much higher guaranteed income.

So you think that breeders should only sell to friends? cause that is the only real way they would know if the snake is going to a safe place. If everybody thought the way you do, there would be no snake industry. Which in turn, means the hobby would die.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by William C

This is exactly why I made it clear that I wasn't trying to bash anyone. And the name calling? Come on... You said it yourself, we're all entitled to our own opinion. I was just trying to make conversation and explain my point of view. But you won't see me calling names, bashing anyone, or trying to make someone feel stupid for feeling a certain way. To each his own.

---

A quote I live by: What did you think was gonna happen!

The difference between snakes, specifically ball pythons, and other animals like dogs and cats is the level of appropriate care, handling and socialization to keep a happy healthy animal. We all know what I'm talking about! Some could argue that fussing over and handling of ball pythons is borderline abuse.

I understand what all of you are saying, and I respect each and every one of your opinions. So why am I not entitled to my own? Do you see me bashing any of you for the way you feel? I started this thread for friendly conversation, not so all of you would try to make me feel stupid for caring about what goes on in the breeding industry. I see this forum hasn't changed a bit since we started it years ago. This is the exact reason why we got rid of it. One person has an opinion and everyone else wants to try to make them feel bad about it.

Wilomn has some strong words. Lol But i don't think anybody else is bashing you. We're trying to have a "conversation". Or an argument. Either way, not bashing. Who is we? I kinda got confused when you said "This forum hasn't changed a bit when we started it years ago" You mean when you joined it?

no, i mean when we created the website. i was part owner of this site before we sold it.

Ohh. I wouldn't know about any of that. :oops:

It was quite a long time ago. 2002 or 2003 I believe. My friend Peter started the site, and another friend of mine Jeff designed it. We also ran leo-land.net, Jeff was big into geckos at the time. We sold the site because it got to be nothing but a bash fest.

I think a lot gets lost in translation on these forums. We all have strong opinions. It depends on how the OP takes it.

No one is bashing anyone. You are entitled to your opinion, but I prefer a little evidence to back up my opinions. Have you met anyone or know of anyone who specifically breeds ball pythons for money only? I surely don't know of anyone like that. Sure the money is nice but 99% of breeders got into breeding because of their love for the animals.

Don't let a few crappy individuals ruin the hobby for you. I assure you the majority of us are not like the people you describe.
We are just merely pointing out that people who breed for money only are few and far between.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by William C

I see this forum hasn't changed a bit since we started it years ago. This is the exact reason why we got rid of it. One person has an opinion and everyone else wants to try to make them feel bad about it.

---

Sounds like someone needs his diapy changed, cuz it's got a BIG load in it.

You've had NOTHING to do with this site for years, your hand is in no way present in what it's become. You're acting like a big ol baby now. Are you going to take you pail and shovel and go home if we don't be nicer to you?

If you don't like it here, there's a site, a veritable league of their own, who welcome those who think like you do, whine like you do, and take offense like you do.

You've got your opinion. Cool. I've got mine. Also cool. You don't like mine and I couldn't care less what you think. Also cool. You seem to care a great deal about what other people think about what you think. Not so cool.

More sage advice: think twice, post once.

A conversation is usually two sided. As is a discussion. No one is saying you're not allowed to think the way you do, they are giving their counter thoughts.

you: I don't think this is right and here's why
person A: I don't agree with you. Here's why.
Person B: I also don't agree with you. Here's why
you: Y u no let me have opinion?!


If you are feeling "stupid" because of your opinion, I believe that has very little to do with people "bashing you" (Which in this thread, wilomn was the only one that was bash-resemblent) and more to do with the fact no one else agrees with you. Making you second guess your opinion, thus "feeling stupid".

My opinion? People wouldn't be breeding these animals if they didn't care for them. Are there people that don't take proper care of their bps? Of course. Do those people have websites, high reputations, or are a regular part of the hobby? I would imagine not. Are those that are not taking care of / love their bps making money? I seriously doubt their even breaking even.

You bought from a breeder who showed no care if the animal was taken care of or not. You had a choice on whom to buy from, and you chose them. That, was your mistake. If people are not caring, why would you give them business? It's the same as a petstore, WHY would you give them business, enabling them to continue their mistreatment.

I would be interested as well to have a name or names of breeders who do not like BPs that are breeding.

Another thing to consider is when people are buying $500+ morphs...they tend to make sure that $500 gets the best care it can. This is why you don't often see "sickly" or "mistreated" morphs on CL. What do you find? Hundreds of normals that people bought from petstores. And every once in a while a lower end morph.

I plan on breeding one day. Will I make money year 1? nope. Do I expect to make some money year 5? Maybe break even..if I'm lucky. Year 10? 15? 20? Well, I hope to be able to make a little money (that I will probably just put right back into the hobby lol) Do I think I'll EVER make a living off of breeding snakes? No. The space, time, money, time, employees, time...needed to maintain and get that big are just not likely going to be in my future.

I think if you opened your mind a bit, you would see that the majority of people who wish to breed one day, or are currently breeding, do it for the joy and hobby and the DREAM that one day, they can do what they love every day, and be able to feed their families from it. Or at least maintain that which they love.

If people who breed snakes to try and make a living "disgust" you, then that is your right. But if you thought your post wouldn't ruffle some feathers here, especially when most of the members here breed or want to breed one day, then you are just being silly. It would be like me going on PETA forums saying "Anyone who supports peta disgusts me. No offense though" If you feel the need to say "No offense" after something, you already know it would cause offense :P :colbert: Hope I didn't "bash" too much. Again...a conversation, discussion, etc has two sides. You've stated yours, now we're all stating ours ;)

Edit: And I'm sorry...you used to own this site...so you sold it because it became a bash fest? Well..the people who bought it have done a wonderful job where you and your partners did not then. I have seen nothing but friendliness in the majority of posts (this being a good example of the non friendly posts) People ask silly questions, or do silly things that on other sites would get bashed and flamed for (good lord does that other site like to flame) where as here members try and correct them. Are there some that would rather make snarky comments? sure. But those are very few and far between. If you think this thread is rude or everyone is bashing you...lord I hope you stay far away from basically every other forum on the planet. The internet is full of trolls...there seems to be a very, very low amount here thankfully.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by William C

I understand what all of you are saying, and I respect each and every one of your opinions. So why am I not entitled to my own? Do you see me bashing any of you for the way you feel? I started this thread for friendly conversation, not so all of you would try to make me feel stupid for caring about what goes on in the breeding industry. I see this forum hasn't changed a bit since we started it years ago. This is the exact reason why we got rid of it. One person has an opinion and everyone else wants to try to make them feel bad about it.

---

I think because it feels like you are insinuating that should one go into the business of breeding and selling ball pythons in an attempt to make money, that they don't care about the snakes enough to provide them with the proper means to keep them healthy and happy, as opposed to individuals such as yourself, that simply own the snakes based on pure desire and want. And you are proclaiming that in a forum largely populated by people that are in fact attempting to begin or have already begun the business of breeding and selling ball pythons. So that accusation is naturally insulting to the individual that wishes to make a profit from it in some way. I personally am not offended or insulted, but I can understand how some are based on your opinion. Your opinion suggests that you are in some way morally superior because you care about your snakes so much more than "us". It's all about your choice of words and your approach. I honestly believe that most people who make the decision to breed ball pythons for potential profit, care for the snakes as much if not more than the average or extreme hobbyist. You HAVE to be a passionate person in order to embark on such a journey, because the time, energy, work, money, etc. required to go into this as a business in hopes to possibly at the very least provide yourself with a supplemental income, is immense. I don't think it would even be possible to take a shot at it if you didn't care. I never understood why some derive this negative opinion about ball python breeders. I really want to make some extra money doing something I love. I love ball pythons and the way I see it there is money to be made breeding and selling them. Why is that wrong? I could understand if you came to my house and my snakes were suffering due to inadequate care and husbandry. But I am about as particular and anal as one could be when it comes to the well being of my snakes, pet and breeder alike. So as long as that is not an issue, why would it bother anybody?

How about a tid-bit from a newbie like me?

One, I've been on this site I think starting this year, early. This is the first "bashing" as you call it, I've seen on here. You did come on here drawing guns, and people are shooting back. Your first post since signing up was all about "I created this site, and was co-owner"...I don't think anyone really jumped on it like you were a celebrity, and maybe this pissed you off for lack of respect. I just don't think anyone really cared, as that was about 10 years ago. Welcome back, sorry you started off on bad terms, cause it seems that way.

So, a little history about me for you. I have always loved reptiles, and animals. I currently own 10 bps, and getting my 11th tomorrow. I love them all, keeping all my males, and not using them to stud, then sell. Am I looking for money in this? Yes, of course...why not? I can have a hobby of snakes I love, and perhaps make some money on the side. I do have a job, actually a career (going on 8 years now). Do I make a lot off my career? yes....why do I want more money? Well, I'm over $2500 into this, and haven't made 1 cent yet. Do I care I haven't made anything? No. Why? Cause I love these snakes.
I breed my own rats too. So, honestly, this is a lot of work. When you work, don't you expect to be paid? I know I do, except, I'm my own boss. Why can't people try to make a small business for themselves?? Supply and demand right? It's not easy taking care of all these animals, but it's being done.

This site has been nothing but amazing useful information, and great community support. Then, you came back 10 years later, and looking to cause a stir in the pond.

I'm just wondering how many "snake farms/mills" you've actually seen or heard of?

My question is, where do you get your animals from...? Or where do you think thee animals come from in the first place? From people like us who have a passion for reptiles, or for business, or for genetics, or any combination there of. I say, this was the wrong place to post your opinion seeing as its a community full of BREEDERS and reptile enthusiats who obviously support Breeders because honestly, we make the best owners, and make the best animals you so passionatly adore. To me personally, they aren't just pets that I love, they're also assets, and investment vehicles, so they get the BEST care. To insiuate breeders are bad keepers couldn't be farther from the truth. Quite the contrary. We make the perfect keepers

Bashing aside.. I don't discourage breeding anything as long as the breeder cares enough for the animals. Proper care, housing, food, etc.. I do however, try to stress to people who want to breed reptiles to first own a few of what they like for awhile. Raise up babies. Get a rack. See what goes into the entire process. I also stress that BPs are picky and feeding habits can change. It is very difficult to start hatchlings on F/T (but not impossible) so breeding your own feeders will likely be necessary. Some babies won't eat at all and need an assist feed or 2 to get them going. Some may not sell until the following spring. Etc etc.

As far as the money goes, that all depends on your collection. People thinking they will get rich off of basic morphs are mistaken. Unless they have many females to breed, have gorgeous morphs, and will have many babies. That's a lot of rack room, a big incubator, and a lot of food.

I just try to get people new to the hobby to realize the amount of time and initial money that would go into all of that.

As for the market being saturated, the only bad thing I see happening with morphs is their quality dropping. Too many new people buying whatever they can afford and then not breeding for quality or to improve that morph. Like pastels for instance. I rarely see the beautiful pastels that were around some years ago.

The truth is, if you breed for quality, you will make money on your animals. People will pay the extra money for a great example of the morph. If your collection is built with great examples of every morph, and all of your normal females are very light, or have tons of flames with great blushing and contrast, then you will produce more great examples of your morphs.

I don't see why you (the OP) should worry about anyone who jumps into breeding. If they fail they fail. If they get tired of it, so what? Is it effecting your life? If you were a breeder, and one who was dedicated to improving on everything you did with your animals, it would actually be helping you when that happened wouldn't it?

Just my 2€

I honestly dont see any bashing here. This looks like a good heated debate. Instead of complaining come back with a counter argument. Thats what a debate is imo. Wilomn's name calling is just Wilomn being Wilomn haha :p

As far as the topic, i disagree with you too bc i believe as long as the snakes are cared for who cares whether youre doing it outta love or to make money? I dont see how taking care of snakes would be a fun business if you at least didnt like them a little bit, but to each their own. As long as you do it right and youre happy, who cares? Its not like the snakes love you back and thrive better when taken care of with love.

I dont think being a septic truck driver would be a very fun career. But if i was good at and made good money dealing with other peoples crap id be all over it.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but I think it was poorly thought out. And it feels like over the past few years it's become trendy to get offended over what other people do with their lives.

It seems like there are deeper issues that are causing your anger, such as a specific negative experience you have had, or a specific person you think is a bad reptile owner. It's sort of a superficial anger.

The other thing it reminds me of is how when I was a teenager, I used to rebel against what was popular (total goth phase). You get a sort of sense of elitism because you do things differently than other people. You care more, you think more, etc. It makes you feel special because other people haven't achieved your point of view. And you get the sense that if they TRULY knew what was important, they would be more like you.

In the end, it turns out that people all have very different values and interests in life, and getting upset because of how one person chooses to do things is exhausting and a waste of time. Just because they do things differently does not mean they are less of a good person, or less intelligent, or less of an asset to society. It doesn't even mean that they are not doing things as well as you are. It just means they are doing them differently.

In less abstract terms: Just because somebody keeps snakes differently, or wants to breed them for profit, doesn't make them a less compassionate or attentive pet owner than you.

It amuses me when people post threads much like this one. A word of advice to anyone that wishes to express their opinions in any way shape or form: you will get a response and often you will not much like that response. As said before think twice post once. If you dont want to get flamed or bashed, a good way to avoid that is keeping your thought to yourself.

I also plan to breed. I would love to make some money off of it. If I end up doing it for a living then that would be a dream come true. My snakes are investments. I take VERY good care of them. The last thing I want is one of my snakes to die. I am also fascinated by snakes and therefore just enjoy keeping them. The fact that there is such a variety makes it even better.

Wilomn is in no way participating in an intellectually expressive or stimulating conversation. I am all for controversial topics, heated debates and expressing your opinion.. but seriously I find everything Wilomn has written so far offensive. It is one thing to express an opinion, to ask questions and carry out a discussion to help the opposite party clarify their own statement or ideas. You do not have to be rude just because you don't agree or understand what another person is attempting to express. What you are doing is not participating in a discussion, just disrupting the flow of conversation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by William C

Think about it like this.... people that breed simply for money will sell a snake to the first person that has the cash. It's like a pet store, they sell a pet without knowing what is going to happen after that pet makes it to its new home. These people buying your morphs might not have a clue how to take care of it. So basically the snake is doomed from the start. Just like when I purchased my Salmon boa, nobody asked me if I knew anything about how to care for snakes. I paid them, and the snake was shipped immediately. That, in my opinion, seems like they don't care what happens to the snakes after they are sold. I don't care if you agree with me or not, but that is just wrong.

---

Depending on where you found your boa I don't think it's fair to equate the situation to a pet store. If I post an ad here or on Kingsnake.com or Fauna I think it's fair to assume the buyer has some knowledge of what they are getting into because the average person who is just getting into the hobby most likely isn't going to know about those sites. If I decide to re-home something on Craigslist I make sure that the person it is going to knows how to care for it. To me Craigslist is more like a pet store and sites like fauna or even reptile expos are more like selling to friends.

I believe that there might be people out there who are after a quick buck but I don't think they hang around long. It's too much work to care for and maintain a good collection to do it if you are only looking to make money. You have to have some passion to keep/do anything.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

I don't agree with way this topic was brought up but it can be frustrating how saturated the market can get. I often worry about the market collapsing due to constant under cutting. I don't want to breed to make money but I would like to be able to cover my reptile related expenses and grow my collection. However, everybody has the right to work with reptiles, and complaining about it is hypocritical. It mostly frustrates me when people get into it solely for the money because I've noticed in my personal network, a lot of neglect and disinterest in the animal's well being in those circumstances. I had a freak out at a personal friend of mine who hasn't fed his animals in 3 months because he's busy with work.. I work 2 jobs and often work 12 hour shifts 6 days a week and my animals ALWAYS get fed. To me I see a difference between people who get into it ONLY for the money and people who genuinely enjoy the hobby. With that said, there is nothing wrong with trying to make a lucrative business out of the hobby, or a name for yourself in the industry as long as you are able to remember that the animals are living creatures and not commodities. They deserve respect and proper care, and if your incapable of providing that than you shouldn't be breeding. There are plenty of money making opportunities out there. I understand the under lining point to this thread but you went off on a rant in the worst place possible. Haha

My point here is that everybody has the right to try and make money off of their animals, as long as they are capable of doing it humanely and with dignity and concern. Those who solely do it for the cash often find there better off financially working at McDonalds LOL, and lucky people like the ones in this forum get to swoop in and provide these animals with good homes. :)

Cheers,
Chris.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9780 using Tapatalk

Passionate people are passionate about their passions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sissysnakes

Wilomn is in no way participating in an intellectually expressive or stimulating conversation. I am all for controversial topics, heated debates and expressing your opinion.. but seriously I find everything Wilomn has written so far offensive. It is one thing to express an opinion, to ask questions and carry out a discussion to help the opposite party clarify their own statement or ideas. You do not have to be rude just because you don't agree or understand what another person is attempting to express. What you are doing is not participating in a discussion, just disrupting the flow of conversation.

---

Sometimes it's easier to just ignore his drivel as he is always right, and you will always be wrong. I'm sure he'll post up in a few minutes telling me how wrong I am...:D

I just can't appreciate out right animosity. I love debates, even the occasional intellectual "argument." If you disagree with someone thats fine, but just attacking someone doesn't provide your audience with a stimulating read, and its not justified, or interesting.

Its just an opinion, if you disagree thats Great! but try to provide a stimulating argument.... don't just call me names.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by William C

I see this forum hasn't changed a bit since we started it years ago. This is the exact reason why we got rid of it. One person has an opinion and everyone else wants to try to make them feel bad about it.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by William C

no, i mean when we created the website. i was part owner of this site before we sold it.

---

You have a fascinating take on the history of this site, Will. I'll admit I've never been one to laud the perfection of my own memory, but I'm quite sure your memory of the early history of BP.net has little to do with what really happened or why. At least, judging by these statements.

Tell me, Will...since you were so instrumental in the "getting rid of" the site, and the "selling" of the site....what was your cut of the sale price? What did you get out of it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sissysnakes

I just can't appreciate out right animosity. I love debates, even the occasional intellectual "argument." If you disagree with someone thats fine, but just attacking someone doesn't provide your audience with a stimulating read, and its not justified, or interesting.

---

And what you appreciate is important to me...why?

How about this, you do things your way and I won't be whining or complaining or getting my panties all knotted up and I'll do things my way and you unknot yours, stop the whining and realize that what you think you see may not be there. I could show you animosity, but that's more work than you're worth at the moment, but trust me if you please, you ain't seen it in this thread yet. Nor have you seen an attack. Just because I don't dandle some dork on my knee because he wasn't smart enough to think through what he meant to say doesn't make me the big meanie. You kids are too used to having everything dulled and curved with seven languages of instructions and what not to do.

This is real life darlin, and sometimes people use bigboy language. If you don't like it, well, you've got choices to make.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wilomn

And what you appreciate is important to me...why?

How about this, you do things your way and I won't be whining or complaining or getting my panties all knotted up and I'll do things my way and you unknot yours, stop the whining and realize that what you think you see may not be there. I could show you animosity, but that's more work than you're worth at the moment, but trust me if you please, you ain't seen it in this thread yet. Nor have you seen an attack. Just because I don't dandle some dork on my knee because he wasn't smart enough to think through what he meant to say doesn't make me the big meanie. You kids are too used to having everything dulled and curved with seven languages of instructions and what not to do.

This is real life darlin, and sometimes people use bigboy language. If you don't like it, well, you've got choices to make.

---

You do realize that you still haven't said anything of value or depth.. Now understand with that said.. I do enjoy reading your posts, they make me smile ;) What they lack in intellectual or educational value.. they make up for in entertainment and dramatic effect. Its one of the reasons I rarely post on this site but read it frequently. Its better then a pop entertainment mag.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sissysnakes

You do realize that you still haven't said anything of value or depth.. Now understand with that said.. I do enjoy reading your posts, they make me smile ;) What they lack in intellectual or educational value.. they make up for in entertainment and dramatic effect. Its one of the reasons I rarely post on this site but read it frequently. Its better then a pop entertainment mag.

---

While I agree that wilomn could tone it down a bit, I do have to point out that you are not saying anything deep or particularly valuable either. I think you can give someone's posts a "negative" rating if they bother you that much.

As someone slowly learning the ropes to be a new breeder and raising up a decent number of morph females, here are my thoughts on the matter:

I simply adore ball python morphs. The thought of breeding two snakes with multiple genes together and waiting to see what the randomizer gives me in each egg is an amazing thought. I wouldn't be too interested in breeding normals together (despite a fascination for watching eggs hatch) due to not feeling confident in finding a good home for the babies, though. I plan on breeding expensive morphs together because I know there's a demand for them, and if someone's going to pay me a decent chunk of money for him or her (whether that's $200 or $2000 or $20,000), I know the animal is most likely going to be treated properly due to the investment the other put into the purchase. It's not a promise, of course, but it's a likelihood. Why mistreat an animal you invested so much money in at the risk of it becoming ill or dying?

The money matters to me too. Making money through this hobby is going to matter. The reason? So I can continue investing it in buying more excellent examples of morphs and supporting other breeders by doing so and expanding the genetic pool of my collection. Money helps me buy an unrelated male DH albino/pied when I breed my albino and pied in hopes for females in order to avoid inbreeding as best I can and produce healthier animals as a result. Money helps me invest in a brand new gene for my collection that I could then breed to my other animals to produce more beautiful animals. Money helps feed animals and purchase new racks and pay for trips to the vet with more ease than simply paying those expenses out of pocket. Would I pay them out of pocket? Of course! No animal would go hungry or without proper environment or care, but it's a whole lot easier when your hobby can break even or earn some profit to reinvest back into it.

I don't expect to make a living off breeding ball pythons and I can't say I'd really want to. I just want to breed what I think is beautiful and the market can sustain. I wouldn't want to breed animals that the market had no demand for out of fear that they wouldn't be able to be sold to good homes. I could keep them, of course, and don't plan on breeding anything I can't support if it were left unsold, but part of my reason for breeding is to share my creations with others and to see them appreciate the results as much as I did when producing them. It's the same reason that -- despite loving the idea of breeding ball pythons in general -- I wouldn't breed a normal x normal or a co-dom x normal, simply because I don't feel the market needs more breedings of that sort.

Well, that's just the thought of a newbie. Your mileage may vary.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

While I agree that wilomn could tone it down a bit, I do have to point out that you are not saying anything deep or particularly valuable either. I think you can give someone's posts a "negative" rating if they bother you that much.

---

Honestly your right. I should have just let it go and did as you said. I apologize to other readers if I was out of line. I do not apologize for my first post, however I understand Wilomn's retaliation. It did not mean that I needed to retaliate in tern.
Thanks meowmeowkazoo ;)

I dont see much basing going on i just see a argument/debate/what ever you want to call it, not everyone agrees with one another.ex i disagree with mike that he thinks cinnamons are better that black pastels even know everyone know black pastels are 100X better(sorry mike needed and example and we all know you love cinnamons:D)
i agree with some of your points and disagree with a lot of them. yes the ball python market is being saturated with low quality animals ex-pastels but that is in everything, not everyone can afford the top quality of everything they want. I personally look at each of my snakes/animals as part of my family. I come home from work, say hi to my parents and gf and dog/cats then go into my reptile room open each cage/tub and check on each of my animals to make sure they have a clean cage/water, and say hi to all of them. does this mean when buying them i didnt think of the how much money when breed they could "possible" produce, no i did. I chose each and everyone of my animals by looking at them and comparing them to other one of that morph and based my decision on how i like their colors/patterns of the individual snake. some times i paid more than "market" sometimes i paid less. But when buying i did think of how much money could possible be made from selling the offspring, for the sole reason, if the offspring didn't fit into my breeding plans they would be up for sale, ex i plan to hold back as many females as i can and only 1-2 males, when i breed my pastel lesser to a killer bee, if i hit the killer queen bee and it is a female i will be holding it back, but if it is a male it will be up for sale. The only reason i plan on selling the offspring is if i can have a hobby that generates money back into my hobby it is a win win for me. I get to keep the snakes i really like even if they never breed for me and never help generate any money into my hobby, while selling the others that will help pay for new rack/ new snakes/ food and supplies for the snakes i do have. I truly dont know if i would able to breed snakes for a living, yes it would be great do have my hobby pay the bills and support my family, but i would never want to walk into my snake room and see my snakes and think of it as a job, instead of my hobby.
but that is strictly my opinion
tom

Now this is a good read. I hate people who jump in and think they can make it rich with out knowing what they are doing. It's not a get rich quick scheme that works, it takes a lot to breed so I don't feel any breeders ( especially those on this site) are in it for the money. They know what work is and show it in the animals they produce and care for. I love over the top semantics, so someone please disagree with what I said and use "bigboy language" lol

I'm new to all of this and after reading everything I have in the last couple months, I have often wondered about the normals and most common morphs that get sold. Whenever I ask questions about mine (I have a normal with super strong het pied markers, yellow splotches on the belly who also has a white spot) I'm told over and over to breed her and see what happens. Let's say I did. I love my bp's and take wonderful care of them, but if I ended up hatching a large clutch of normals, what would I do with them?? I'm certain that with the effort to income ratio, most breeders take good care of and care about THEIR snakes. I just worry about where the babies are all going to end up. Especially the super affordable ones! With so much emphasis being placed on the high dollar morphs, do the others become "throw aways"?

I agree, it irks me a bit when people think about nothing but breeding, it seems as if there's hardly anyone who just has a pet, like me. But, of course it's their decision and everything, as long as the snakes are taken care of, I guess I can't complain. :/

most of the big breeders will wholesale their normal(mostly males) ball pythons to pet stores. and if your going to breed your possible het pied male your best bet is to breed him to a pied female so there is no question is he is a het pied or not. and this would leave you with with het pieds and pieds(if he proves out)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by William C

Not to mention, the animals deserve more respect than that. I see the same thing with dog breeders in my area. What I'm getting at is... If you plan to start breeding snakes, make sure you're doing it for the right reasons. And don't expect to make a living off of it, because it's not an easy thing to do.

---

I do have to say that having grown up in the dog breeding/serious showing community any dog breeder who is doing it to make a quick buck is considered a glorified puppy mill. All of the rescues/clubs and legitimate breeders that I know do not agree with breeding for profit and those breeders they do agree with do not often make much from a litter if any at all (most puppies go to other breeders for show and the rest normally go to great screened families for the price of vet bills). A good breeder is someone who will Always take the dog back even if it is 12 years old and needs vet care.. none do it for the money, and none want to see their dogs go to a pound. This is not to say that I dislike people who have accidental litters.. I do feel that you must have responsibility for any animal you choose to bring into this world (and I do not have anything against big time snake breeders)... If you have purposefully bred an animal make sure its offspring are cared for, with that said you can't always take in every variable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 2balls

I'm new to all of this and after reading everything I have in the last couple months, I have often wondered about the normals and most common morphs that get sold. Whenever I ask questions about mine (I have a normal with super strong het pied markers, yellow splotches on the belly who also has a white spot) I'm told over and over to breed her and see what happens. Let's say I did. I love my bp's and take wonderful care of them, but if I ended up hatching a large clutch of normals, what would I do with them?? I'm certain that with the effort to income ratio, most breeders take good care of and care about THEIR snakes. I just worry about where the babies are all going to end up. Especially the super affordable ones! With so much emphasis being placed on the high dollar morphs, do the others become "throw aways"?

---

I think the most common solution for normals that don't sell, is to wholesale them to a local pet store. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 1nstinct

most of the big breeders will wholesale their normal(mostly males) ball pythons to pet stores. and if your going to breed your possible het pied male your best bet is to breed him to a pied female so there is no question is he is a het pied or not. and this would leave you with with het pieds and pieds(if he proves out)

---

:) I know. And I don't plan on breeding. Not because I think it's a bad thing, I just don't have the time to find the right homes for all the normals I would hatch out :P and since one of my bp's is a petsmart "rescue", I would never feel good about forwarding them on to a place like that. That's exactly my point. I don't know where you live but the pet stores around me are filled with severely underfed normals. And as long as someone comes in with the money, they will sell them the snake. Who knows what happens after that. I would want to check in with the new owners of any snake I sold. Even the normals. :)