Ball Python X Green Tree Python Hybrid

Hello all,
Let me start by saying I do know there are a very signifigant number of snake keepers opposed to hybrids whether it be the simple lack of information we have on them, or the risk with combining two species bloodlines and linking a species in a way it naturally never would have, and I respect those who feel that way and their opinions. The last thing I would like is to have a friendly conversation about a theory turn into a conflict no one is enjoying. I have very literally NO idea if I will ever participate in attempting hybrids, but it is a thought I love to entertain and think about XD

I personally love hybrids. Theres nothing more interesting to me then seeing which parts of each snake are presant, and nothing more intriguing than watching their behaviors and chipping away at all the possibilities. And I wont lie I personally love the feeling of facilitating life. Bringing new life into the world is a beautiful thing. But im equally as allured by the thought of creating something that has never existed before. The idea that a project I may work in on the future could produce something unique to the world, to know that I directly added a new factor, and contributed to the evolution of both our world and the two species involved would be an incredible feeling. Whether people find it morally acceptable or doesnt remove the signifigance of the event in my eyes.

Originally I had intended to try my hand at producing Spider Burmballs(I set the goal high, I know XD), but with the lacey act and whatnot even if I did by some miracle produce some, by the time is happened, burm hybrids may also be unable to cross state lines not allowing me to sell any offspring in the event I felt it was the right thing to do.

So I started thinking about whats out there right now, and I thought, hey why not attempt a GTP X BP cross? GTP's are considered tricky to breed in the first place, much less with a terrestrial species, but someone managed to create Carpondros right? In theory, it should be possible. The biggest issue would be getting them to lock because of their different hang out spots.

My two normal females have plastic frogs aquarium sealented to the sides of their tank walls as well as bamboo climbing bars, and a hemp hammock that reaches every corner of the tank. Now my girls may be strange, but they use the climbing bars quite often, and coil around the frogs for hours at a time. The hammock isnt used that often, but Id say then spend 60% of the time grounded, and the remaining 40% suspended. I couldnt find much on how GTP's behave when they arent given a perch, and I figured better not risk it frankly.

I would more than likely choose to outfit a 90 gallon tank(24"T-18"D-4'L if I remember correctly), and keep the pair in that using heat lamps and a humidifier to regulate the environment. I dont want to stress them out more than necessary by moving them, or deny them the oppertunity to lock. On that note, I would probably choose to pair a larger male Ball Python, with a female Green tree Python. I think that a male is more likely to seek out the female and mate, and Ball Pythons seem to be less out of their comfort zone in trees than GTP's are on the ground.

Two crossed PVC perches 7" off the cage floor would be provided. I think that should be enough for the GTP to feed comfortable, and not too high for the ball python to make his way up to her.
On the warm side of the enclosure, I would put an 8" Perch(the tallest in the cage) with a platform below it, but just enough that the male BP may be able to finnagle a lock while the GTP would be on the perch.(I have no experience with GTP's whatsoever, so im not sure if that would work, but it does SEEM like a nice middle ground for them XDD

The underside of said platform would also act as the BP's warm hide, regulated with a digital controlled UTH if the heat lamp is unable to create the right temp.

Please everyone critique my plans, and expand upon them. If I ever do decide to try this out, im gonna want to make sure that Im doing everything I can to happily facilitate both snakes and encourage copulation. Thanks for reading!

You might want to check out Hybrid Haven and pose your questions there. It's a hybrid specific forum. There might be other people trying to do this and you could bounce ideas off of each other.

Is that another forum? I looked for a subforum specifically geared toward hybrids but didnt find anything. Man I expected some people to not be happy about the idea, but its been complete radio silence.

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Originally Posted by Riv

Is that another forum? I looked for a subforum specifically geared toward hybrids but didnt find anything. Man I expected some people to not be happy about the idea, but its been complete radio silence.

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I think the concept is fascinating, but I know zilch (functionally) about GTPs, so couldn't even venture a guess at advice. :) You'll probably be better off trying the suggested forum to learn from the "right" people.

Yeah, Ill have to check that place out = P

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Man I expected some people to not be happy about the idea, but its been complete radio silence.

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you'll find silence isn't necessarily approval, just silence :P

I'm of the disapproval group, but not sure if I'm ready to spend energy describing why.

GL, I guess :)

Fair enough I suppose.

Hey idk anything that will help you but you've got my vote. I think it would be cool.

www.hybridhaven.net

different forum all together.

Keep in mind that GTP and Carpet pythons are both of the Genus Morelia, and virtually share the same geographic range. Some subspecies of carpets are much more arboreal than keepers give the allowance for, so it's not a stretch to imagine "carpondros" in the wild.

If you do end up trying this, I would make sure the female is a ball python. GTP eggs are smaller than BP eggs, and you might run into even more problem with a slender gtp trying to pass larger eggs.

Just for the record, I'm not opposed to hybrids, but I wouldn't want to be the first time try a cross for fear of losing either of my snakes due to complications.

Your thinking on which sex to pair is backward. I doubt the ball would have too much affect of the chondros eggs size but you never know. In my experience, male chondros will breed a rope if it smells like a female. I'm not really sure where this myth is coming from that chondros are difficult to breed. They breed like cornsnakes. The difficulty come with getting eggs to hatch and getting babies to survive. I would choose to go with a female ball just due to the hardiness of their eggs and babies.

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

In my experience, male chondros will breed a rope if it smells like a female. I'm not really sure where this myth is coming from that chondros are difficult to breed. They breed like cornsnakes.

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That's good to hear. I've got a male chondro that I would like to pair with my IJ in the near future.

Excuse my ignorance,

Why ???

I know the idea is fascinating to some but have you stopped to think about the what if's ??

I know it is something that could possibly happen in the wild and who is to say it hasn't.. What if the risks out weigh the rewards and you end up with a clutch is mutant snakes that won't make it or lose your female and clutch...

I don't know I just think some things are best left to thoughts and discussion :confusd:

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Originally Posted by ExotixTowing

Excuse my ignorance,

Why ???

I know the idea is fascinating to some but have you stopped to think about the what if's ??

I know it is something that could possibly happen in the wild and who is to say it hasn't.. What if the risks out weigh the rewards and you end up with a clutch is mutant snakes that won't make it or lose your female and clutch...

I don't know I just think some things are best left to thoughts and discussion :confusd:

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You can end up with a bunch of snakes that won't make it or lose your female and clutch by breeding ball x ball.

I, personally, love hybrids. I plan on trying for a hybrid in the future. But my personal opinion would be to have experience breeding gtps and ball pythons ( separately ) before pursuing breeding them together :)

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Originally Posted by Dabonus

That's good to hear. I've got a male chondro that I would like to pair with my IJ in the near future.

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IJ Carpondros make the best looking hybrids. We produced a stellar clutch last year and they are said the be the best looking Carpondros produced by many breeders. Good luck!
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...s/DSCF1765.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...s/DSCF1762.jpg

@Dobonas, and brandon osborn, I have heard theyre pretty comfortable in trees, but I never looked into it. And if the sex drive in GTP males is good then I would absolutely opt to have the female be a ball. Ive never heard anything about the durability or survival rate of hatchlings, but I would totally beleive balls being a little hardier in that department.

@Exotixtowing the simple passion and desire to create them(as stated in my first post) is enough of a reason. Why did anyone mix red and blue together? To create the specific shade of purple they wanted. No one that breeds balls is furthering the species by doing so. They are selectively breeding gene pools that they LIKE. Or that sell well. We may try and pick the biggest females, or the least aggressive snakes. But that isnt helping them to survive as a species, so I am going to ask you WHY you breed ball pythons. Or anything else for that matter? It is because you want to. Plain and simple.

As someone earlier mentioned. there are a lot of what ifs, and thats part of the allure. When breeding ANYTHING there is signifigant risk that somthing and anything may go wrong and youll lose the babies and the mother. There is always that risk in the breeding of any animal humans included. So thats like asking a person why they wont have kids, and them responding why would you? It could impact your health.

As far as mutant snakes go, thats EXACTLY what im going for = P a mutant combination of both species. Heck, BP morphs are mutant variants. What we all do here, is look for new strains we can isolate and combine with others. Hybrid breeders just do that on a broader scale in unexplored territory. And If I wound up with a clutch that wouldnt survive, then no one who doesnt support hybrids has anything to complain about. On the other end of that, if no one tweaked their forumla and tried after an experiment failed and blew up their lab the technology we use today never would have existed.

Yes, I suppose their are things that should be left to thought and discussion, like whether to inject mountain dew, or whether its a good idea to paint your rabbit. Things that can actually hurt or provide a negative life for you or your animal. But breeding two species of animal together does not deteriorate their quality of life, or provide any *additional* risks, so long as quarentine is upheld, and there is honesty in the sale of a hybrid.

That is just my opinion, but I think that the people opposed to hybrid breeding are slightly more conernced than is called for. There is just as much if not more potential to improve both species as there is to creative a mutant desiese through hybrid breeding that wipes out both. When I think of a decent sized snake that doesnt prefer to strike but isnt scared to, whom is equally comfortable in trees and on the ground, and is capable of hunting happily in either terrain, that screams survivability to me. And offers a portion of both worlds, and absolute varieability in the species that could potentially outlast both of its ancestors if it started breeding on its own. At least in my opinion, the benefits of succeeding greatly outway the possibilities of failure, and while I may or may not choose to persue this goal I do think that it should be achieved.

you got my vote keep me posted on this.am exicted for you

I think a GTP with a ball could be pretty cool looking depending on what female ball is used. I have never seen a GTP/Ball hybrid but if you could mix the ball morph pattern and color with the GTP it could be pretty cool.

I think a lot of people just hear hybrid and pitch a fit over no real reason other then it would never happen in the wild. Hey this is life and a lot of stuff wouldn't happen in the wild but guess what it still does. Life without taking chances is extremely boring I say go for it.

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Originally Posted by Riv

That is just my opinion, but I think that the people opposed to hybrid breeding are slightly more conernced than is called for. There is just as much if not more potential to improve both species as there is to creative a mutant desiese through hybrid breeding that wipes out both. When I think of a decent sized snake that doesnt prefer to strike but isnt scared to, whom is equally comfortable in trees and on the ground, and is capable of hunting happily in either terrain, that screams survivability to me. And offers a portion of both worlds, and absolute varieability in the species that could potentially outlast both of its ancestors if it started breeding on its own. At least in my opinion, the benefits of succeeding greatly outway the possibilities of failure, and while I may or may not choose to persue this goal I do think that it should be achieved.

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Almost following you right up until this little bit here...You can cross any species, colors, etc, as you want; it's not going to increase the "survivability" factor for animals that are kept in enclosures in our homes. That's as moot a point as "it could never occur naturally". If you're going to work with hybrids, you're doing it simply because you want to(not right, nor wrong, IMO); not in any way, shape or form for the benefit of either species.

Wow, imagine trying to get one of those feeding.

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@robNj Touche sir. Youre absolutely right. It wouldnt increase survivability at all as long ad they were kept jn captivity. Im not saying I intend to release them or anything. But if the Gtpxball hybrid did come to exist, and people began breeding more of them, in the event of an apocalypse, that hybrid would have a higher chance of surival based sheery on the level of comfort in both trees and on the ground. Comvined with a passive disposition, I thibk it would last a lot longer than within that scenario. In captivity that doesnt matter of course. They are on to road to being domesticated, Eliminating the need to furrher imprive their survivability.

You talk about "improve both species..."
But you haven't mention what improvements are those?

What are you expecting, besides the skin color morphs? :)


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It'll be harder to cross python regius with morelia viridis than it is morelia viridis x morelia sp., or python regius x python sp., simply because they're not as closely related, so there will be far fewer genes in common. The result will be a lot more non-viable eggs. And the final hybrid is even more likely to be a mule, i.e. sterile.

But if carpets and balls have been successfully mixed, and womas and balls, you should be able to cross balls and chondros. In theory. Maybe.

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Originally Posted by rvcasa

You talk about "improve both species..."
But you haven't mention what improvements are those?

What are you expecting, besides the skin color morphs? :)


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Riv outlined this in his post previous to yours...in the case of cataclysmic events that would undoubtedly free all captive bred animals, hybridization may be the key factor in benefiting said species by equipping them with the best behaviors of both worlds, so that they can be more adaptable to living in all environments.

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Originally Posted by loonunit

It'll be harder to cross python regius with morelia viridis than it is morelia viridis x morelia sp., or python regius x python sp., simply because they're not as closely related, so there will be far fewer genes in common. The result will be a lot more non-viable eggs. And the final hybrid is even more likely to be a mule, i.e. sterile.

But if carpets and balls have been successfully mixed, and womas and balls, you should be able to cross balls and chondros. In theory. Maybe.

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I was thinking about that. They arent as closely related. And as a result the hybriid being sterile is a very real possibility. But there is the link of carpet pythons. Even if one was completely unsuccessful breeding a pure GTP to a pure ball, they may be able to be combined using carpets as a catalyst. Lets say you attempted to breed a Carpandros with a carpall. Now, im no expert, and this is going on my basic understanding of breeding and genetics, but even though you would never really get a what a pure GTP X Ball hybrid would be like, it would allow the two species genetics to mingle, and with selective breeding you could wind up with a snake that would be the closet thing to that hybrid. I dont really see the carpet genetics really adding anything new to the mix except maybe some cool patterns, but It was fun to think about XD

Go for it , I would love to see this hybrid.

Snake of my dreams, Albino Burm-ball or Blue-eyed Lucistic Burm-ball. It doesn't get prettier than that

I think it is also important to take in consideration if you do manage to produce the hybrid offspring. If you do not get the disired outcome, what will you do with the offspring? I feel it is important to consider others, and the purity of both the GTP and BP line. If you did decide to sell these to the general public, even if you do specify to the buyer that this is a Crossed/hybrid animal, what is to stop them from selling that animal to the next buyer as a BP or GTP (depending on how it looks).
Just a thought, I am not against hybrids, I just think there is a certain responsibilty when "creating" these animals.

GTP hybridization projects are notorious for being difficult to get successful offspring from. Slug clutches, eggs that fail halfway through.. it's tough. Do some reading on GTP egg incubation, incubating GTP eggs is also notoriously more difficult than many other python species.

One thing is for sure, any offspring from a ball x gtp would likely not be mistaken as anything else, and that's what I like in hybrid projects!!

Hybridizing very similar species makes for more confusion than hybridizing drastically different species, and tends to make for the most spectacular successes when they occur.

For examples of distant hybrid successes, please see:

ball x woma
ball x burm
carpet x borneo

For examples of hybrids I consider failures (defined as, once you see the offspring, you think "well, that wasn't worth the effort"):

ball x angolan
blood x borneo
rhino x gaboon (this one even occurs in the wild, but I much prefer the distinct species' looks at the extreme furthest edges of each others' range)

Good luck, don't count on succeeding even on your fourth season attempting this cross. Try it enough and change things up when you encounter failure, and you might get a few eggs to go full term and produce healthy hatchlings.

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

GTP hybridization projects are notorious for being difficult to get successful offspring from. Slug clutches, eggs that fail halfway through.. it's tough. Do some reading on GTP egg incubation, incubating GTP eggs is also notoriously more difficult than many other python species.

One thing is for sure, any offspring from a ball x gtp would likely not be mistaken as anything else, and that's what I like in hybrid projects!!

Hybridizing very similar species makes for more confusion than hybridizing drastically different species, and tends to make for the most spectacular successes when they occur.

For examples of distant hybrid successes, please see:

ball x woma
ball x burm
carpet x borneo

For examples of hybrids I consider failures (defined as, once you see the offspring, you think "well, that wasn't worth the effort"):

ball x angolan
blood x borneo
rhino x gaboon (this one even occurs in the wild, but I much prefer the distinct species' looks at the extreme furthest edges of each others' range)

Good luck, don't count on succeeding even on your fourth season attempting this cross. Try it enough and change things up when you encounter failure, and you might get a few eggs to go full term and produce healthy hatchlings.

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Coming from an STP perspective.. i have seen some amazing blood borneo crosses... but im biased. Check this out:
http://thereptilereport.com/coastal-carpet-x-black-blood-python/

I'm not specifically opposed to hybrids, but I'm really disturbed by the fact that you don't seem to know what you're doing. The idea of novices playing god really bothers me. These are living animals, not science experiments.

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Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

I'm not specifically opposed to hybrids, but I'm really disturbed by the fact that you don't seem to know what you're doing. The idea of novices playing god really bothers me. These are living animals, not science experiments.

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I don't think he plans on starting anytime soon.

@sissysnakes: I've never seen a STP cross I liked! Generally they come out "muddy" to my eyes. I always have an open mind however, and a spectacular animal could sure change that mind :D I'm perfectly ok with carpet subspecies crosses, but pretty much because a few specific ones turn out spectacular and beautiful. There are plenty of carpet crosses I dislike however (any IJ, NG, or inland crosses), and I've only ever seen one individual bredli/carpet cross I thought was a truly beautiful hybrid.

Hybrids are a touchy subject so I feel uncomfortable naming names.. but i have seen a few beautiful stp hybrids from some private collections. I think the reason that stp hybrids are so acceptable to me is their proximity in the wild.
Ill ask around to see if I can get permission to post a pic or two.

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I'm not against hybridization per se. I'm against misrepresentation of hybrids/intergrades. I myself am trying for some colubrid intergrades and hybrids this season. And maybe down the road after I get some experience under my belt with Pythons, move into Walls and Comas. It would be interesting in seeing the out come of a GTP X BP, I do hope you keep us updated when you decide to go thru with it.. Just make sure you have your ducks in a row before playing, and when/if you sell them be clear they are hybrids(if they arent painfully obvious.. even then still note there hybrids.)

-Sand

Dude, I haven't seen may hybrids personally, mostly in pictures. I have seen some beautiful morphs. I was suggesting a morph similar to this "hybrid" and I say go for it.

IF you can get everything lined out and get a way to do it. Let me know. I support your idea 1000%!

I cannot say I am against hybrids. If you are against it, think of your house cats you love and your dogs. Most fancy types are hybrids. Heck we breed HYPOALLERGENIC animals. NOT natural, we just accept them for what they are. GO FOR IT!!!

Who knows, it could be so beautiful noone would then reject it. Its all about bias in the end, and every human has it. Just open up to great possibilities. Its our nature. If we are not releasing into the wild and polluting our general snake populous, we would be fine. You never want to upset mother nature, but as a fellow hobbyist, I wanna know.

:D