Espresso Project... finally proving out?

I guess I should begin with some back-story on this project that we purchased from another breeder who unfortunately had to give up the hobby for personal reasons. The previous breeder bought a dark female and in 2006 she produced a clutch with a pastel male. An odd looking female came out of the egg, which he dubbed the mother an "Espresso".

Original Mom:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...iles/Suzie.jpg


Here's the odd female produced:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...reambaby-2.jpg
With clutchmates:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...andnormals.jpg

Here she is now all grown up:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...es/Cream-1.jpg


He was never able to reproduce the combo and even we tried with the same parents. We got the daughter to breed with a Mojave and got 4 so/so eggs that I swear weren't going to go full term which they did! We got 2 Pastaves in the clutch and 2 other surprises...

Espresso male: (Resembles a Cinnamon, only further breeding will tell.)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...soPostShed.jpg

Espresso x Pastel x Mojave - "Pastavo":
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...voPostShed.jpg


Looks like we got more questions to figure out than answers lol.

Thanks for looking!

Matt @ The Brass Gecko

Was the original female a virgin? Could she have been with a pewter?

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Originally Posted by LotsaBalls

Was the original female a virgin? Could she have been with a pewter?

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My exact first thought too... She looks pewter-ish imo

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Originally Posted by LotsaBalls

Was the original female a virgin? Could she have been with a pewter?

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The breeder didn't have a Pewter, or cinnamons. This was the Sire of the clutch:

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v337/Zephian/Our%20Reptiles/OurPastelMale.jpg[/IMG


The Father was a CB Pastel, the mother was a store bought normal.

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Originally Posted by Matty

The breeder didn't have a Pewter, or cinnamons. This was the Sire of the clutch:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...PastelMale.jpg


The Father was a CB Pastel, the mother was a store bought normal.

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So the same pairing was done with no success in reproducing the pewter looking or a cinnamon looking offspring. How old was the female when she was purchased? FYI I'm not trying to disprove the project, just looking at the simplest answer first.

The original female was purchased in 1997, not sure of the age... younger, not breeding size I assume. The offspring was produced in 2006, I doubt any sperm retention would last 9 years lol.

Whatever it is there is no denying that pastavo is definitely more than a regular pastave. So good luck looking forward to seeing more.

Espresso x Pastel x Mojave - "Pastavo":

is hot :bow::bow::bow::bow:

I absolutely love the look of that 'pastavo', and I'd love to see how he ages. Such a crisp look!

However, I have to say, that pastel sire doesn't look entirely ordinary to me, and neither does the female pastel that produced these. I think there is, at least, a chance that they are both pewters.

I agree with Donna.

I think there is a good chance the original sire is a pewter, and the odd looking female hatchling looks a LOT like a pewter.

I've never seen a pastel that looked like the original sire, not ever. But an adult pewter, lots of similarity there. Perhaps the seller of the sire didn't know what they had ?

Gale

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Originally Posted by angllady2

I agree with Donna.

I think there is a good chance the original sire is a pewter, and the odd looking female hatchling looks a LOT like a pewter.

I've never seen a pastel that looked like the original sire, not ever. But an adult pewter, lots of similarity there. Perhaps the seller of the sire didn't know what they had ?

Gale

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:confusd:

I feel as though you guys must be looking at a different snake, ha ha! (I don't mean that as an insult -- I am just trying to see what you're seeing!)

I don't think I have ever seen a pewter that looked like that sire ... I could definitely see him as being a something (other than just pastel), but I just don't see pewter ..?

The original "odd" offspring has pewter traits that I can see, for sure, especially in that 2nd photo, and the triple baby sure looks a lot like a savannah pewter to me. I just don't see those same traits in the sire ...?? (I also don't really see cinnamon in the mother, either, but ..??)

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Originally Posted by rdoyle225

Espresso x Pastel x Mojave - "Pastavo":

is hot :bow::bow::bow::bow:

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x1000 :gj::O

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

:confusd:

I feel as though you guys must be looking at a different snake, ha ha! (I don't mean that as an insult -- I am just trying to see what you're seeing!)

I don't think I have ever seen a pewter that looked like that sire ... I could definitely see him as being a something (other than just pastel), but I just don't see pewter ..?

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The trick is an adult pewter. It doesn't look anything like a young pewter, but I've seen a handful of adults and while not identical, there are enough similarities I could see it being a low quality pewter. There is a lot of room for variation in morphs remember. I could be way off base, but I think it is a possibility.

Gale

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Originally Posted by angllady2

The trick is an adult pewter. It doesn't look anything like a young pewter, but I've seen a handful of adults and while not identical, there are enough similarities I could see it being a low quality pewter. There is a lot of room for variation in morphs remember. I could be way off base, but I think it is a possibility.

Gale

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I concede that it's definitely possible -- especially looking at the dam, who doesn't look much like a cinny or black pastel at all to me, and the babies in question, who definitely look pewter-ish to me -- but I just don't quite see it ...

I think the thing of it is, when I think of a low-quality adult pewter, I think of a brown snake. I've seen plenty of adult pewters that were almost a patternless brown. But, the brown seems to come from the blushing as a baby getting darker as the animal ages and becoming brown. What I keep sticking on about that guy being a pewter is that he just doesn't seem to have the blushing to be a pewter. His daughter does ... The triple definitely does ... I just don't see it in him ..?

This is the least blushy, most "normal" looking pewter I can find a picture of (middle of the 2nd row, right under the really pretty caramel). To me, it still looks way more "pewter-y" than the pastel sire ...

http://myballpython.com/breeders.html

The clincher is the one hatchling that absolutely, positively, IS a cinnamon or black pastel. It has the characteristic 'cinnie snout'. You cannot get a cinnamon in the clutch unless one of the parents carried that gene, which means that is not a pastel, it absolutely HAS TO BE a pewter.

I know that's a disappointment, but there it is. That 'Pastavo' is a pewter mojave. It's the hottest pewter mojave I've ever seen, but that's GOT to be what it is. I've seen some photos of pewter mojaves with black outlining, but usually only on the dorsal area--this one has bold black outlining everywhere, and he looks spectacular, but I do not see any reason to believe that he has a new gene in him.

The line is definitely worth working with, but it's all known genes.

looks like breeding back to a different normal is in order?

Just to clarify....

The pastel male is defiantly a pastel male, not a pewter. He was born in 2002 (Pewters were first made in 2003, so obviously he can't be one) but he is just a really nice Graziani pastel male. He has produced dozens of babies over the year, and never any other pewter or cinnamon looking babies.

The "normal" female has only produced so far the one "Pastelo" (the pewter looking female, which is a pastel espresso). We did the same pairing last year, but didn't get any other different looking babies. She tends to throw very light, reduced/clean patterned normals. Pretty much the opposite of what she looks like (extremely dark). Cinnamon's were first produced in 2002, she was bought in 1996.
Edit: First cinnamon was found in a wc shipment in 1997 by Greg Grazaini.)

Logically, it makes way more sense that the (likely WC) female is carrying the espresso gene over the captive bred male. However, it could be a random mutation? Most people assumed in 2006 when the Pastelo was produced, that it was a random incident (maybe from heat fluctuation), and wouldn't be genetic. Obviously when we bred her to the mojave, we proved she's carrying something besides the pastel gene.

What is this gene? Obviously was suspect it's like the cinnamon and black pastel genes. Meaning we suspect the super form will be a black snake....obviously hoping it might be a line that doesn't have the kinking/duck bill problems that the current supers can have. The Pastelo female will not be bred this year to gain back her weight, but the next plans will be to breed back to see try and see the super form. Then we will bred it to cinnamon to see if it's compatible.

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...53134161_n.jpg

This was a photo when the espresso first hatched before its shed (so obviously it lost some of the light coloration, but in comparison to a normal).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by angllady2

I agree with Donna.

I think there is a good chance the original sire is a pewter, and the odd looking female hatchling looks a LOT like a pewter.

I've never seen a pastel that looked like the original sire, not ever. But an adult pewter, lots of similarity there. Perhaps the seller of the sire didn't know what they had ?

Gale

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The first pewter was born in 2003, the original sire was purchased in Canada from Regius Co in 2004. I highly doubt a pewter would be in Canada at that time for $2500. It was the previous owner's main Pastel breeder, nothing else popped out that looked anything like the odd female. We even bred him and nothing happened. It's either bad odds if he was a pewter or it's not him at all.

We just bred a Fire to the original female this year and again nothing odd came out. Again it's probably bad odds but this is my theory (it will sound far fetched but it's the fact that it's not impossible): All mutations are spontaneous, it's how they came to be in the first place. Could it very well be a spontaneous new line of cinnamon and or black pastel that was crossed with the pastel gene as it appeared which represents the odd female?

Very interesting...perhaps what's happened then is a spontaneous mutation! I do think it's a black pastel, however--look at it. It also has the snout changes, so it will be prone to duckbilling.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

It has the characteristic 'cinnie snout'.

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The only difference I see is that it's a bit thinner? The sire to that clutch (the Mojave) has a long skinny snout as well.

Compared to normal from another clutch:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...oseCompare.jpg

Closeup:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...pressoNose.jpg

Compared to one of it's sibling Pastaves:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...aveCompare.jpg

I don't know about the pastave, but yes, the cinnie has a thin snout, and sometimes a shorter one, too. If you look at a lot of photos of cinnies and black pastels, you'll see what I'm talking about. The vast majority have it, so much so that I use it to identify a poor quality cinnie.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Matty

I guess I should begin with some back-story on this project that we purchased from another breeder who unfortunately had to give up the hobby for personal reasons. The previous breeder bought a dark female and in 2006 she produced a clutch with a pastel male. An odd looking female came out of the egg, which he dubbed the mother an "Espresso".
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...voPostShed.jpg


Looks like we got more questions to figure out than answers lol.

Thanks for looking!

Matt @ The Brass Gecko

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You can call that a Pastavo, Essprojavel, or a Djiboutian three legged watermelon...

I call it a Freakin' Stunner! That's absolutely gorgeous.

I have seen the espresso original and it is def odd I *think* RGR got it as a CH not sure there. I have been watching the espresso project for ages, I do not believe it is related to any pewter line currently but wether it is a new variation on pewters or something else remains to be seen. That is a great looking little one to be sure I hope that I can see in the flesh soon?? :D:D Is the Mojo one of RGRs too or from else where? He breed some of the mojos with the sub-saharan female, I again I wonder if there is not a touch of the charcoal project crossing over there as well? Perhaps if the mojo is RGRs there maybe a little extra from the mojos side as well. I believe you have the records and would know better than I. Something to dig up maybe?

Alex

Someone is selling a "espresso" ball on kingsnake

http://img.tapatalk.com/61875360-eed8-d75d.jpg

Looks like a completely different snake? States its a wc unproven male. On a side note they are asking $4500 for an unproven male?? Crazy.


Please excuse any errors sent from my crap phone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rat160

Someone is selling a "espresso" ball on kingsnake

http://img.tapatalk.com/61875360-eed8-d75d.jpg

Looks like a completely different snake? States its a wc unproven male. On a side note they are asking $4500 for an unproven male?? Crazy.


Please excuse any errors sent from my crap phone.

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That isn't us that's for sure. It looks nothing like our line lol

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

I have seen the espresso original and it is def odd I *think* RGR got it as a CH not sure there. I have been watching the espresso project for ages, I do not believe it is related to any pewter line currently but wether it is a new variation on pewters or something else remains to be seen. That is a great looking little one to be sure I hope that I can see in the flesh soon?? :D:D Is the Mojo one of RGRs too or from else where? He breed some of the mojos with the sub-saharan female, I again I wonder if there is not a touch of the charcoal project crossing over there as well? Perhaps if the mojo is RGRs there maybe a little extra from the mojos side as well. I believe you have the records and would know better than I. Something to dig up maybe?

Alex

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Hey Alex!

The Mojo was from another breeder that they bought in Montreal I do believe. Of course you'll get to see her soon, the expo at the latest. We plan on having her in our display.

So much for that thought... It is very interesting but elusive gene for sure. Did you guys get to see B when he was down?

Your Espressos are Cinnamons. Not sure how, when, or why it happened, but that's what they are.

Saying that the first Pewters were produced after the breeder male was produced is moot. If they didn't know it was a Pewter, nor what a Cinnamon was at the time, anyone would have just called it a weird Pastel, especially cause he's not your "traditional" looking Pewter. Cinnamons have been around for forever, there were just a few people who picked them out as something different and proved it out. Once Greg proved it, there were suddenly many adult Cinnamons in people collections. Same thing happened with Yellowbellies. Believe me, I was there ;) lol

On that note, the Pewter Mojave is awesome!

I don't understand how that sire can possible be a pewter unless they have some way to produce pastel babies as I own one of his babies and it is no doubt a pastel.

Pewters produce Pastels, Cinnamons, and Pewters.

What an interesting thread!! I produced the original "Espresso x Pastel" cross in 2006 and sold the adult animals in question in this thread. So for a few clarifications:

a) For those who think the original male is a pewter, you are gravely mistaken... I have produced so many pastel clutches with this male that I can't even count how many pastels he produced for me over 4 or 5 years. He fathered like 5 clutches a year. Great breeder and an extremely beautiful pastel that aged very well. I ran a reptile business for a few years and was so versed into ball pythons, I would of recognized Cinnamons had I of produced ANY at all. I guarantee everyone here, there is no doubt the original male pastel is nothing but that - a very nice pastel.

b) The original female was purchased from a guy in Montreal, Canada. He had a pair of normals as pets, and I bought both of them in 1999 (she was likely born in 1997 though). I still have the male at home, which could not be any more normal other than being the tamest, friendliest snake I've ever owned in my life. The female is darker than most normal ball pythons, but otherwise couldn't look any more normal. This female was likely captive-hatched, but I don't know for sure. This female produced a clutch for me in 2006 and again in.. not sure, but I think 2008 or maybe even in 2009... for that clutch, I bred back a few normal-looking 2006 males she had produced with the pastel. Only normal appearing babies came out. Similar to what was described earlier, reduced patterns, banding and light chocolate type coloring, but nothing really unusual. I sold everything as normal babies (mistake or not, I had a day job and could not keep everything). The 2006 female cross was DEFINITELY not a regular pastel (pictures prove it and I hatched way too many pastels to be confused on that one). Didn't know if it was genetic or not however and did not manage to breed her before I sold her.

In short, I had given up on this project honestly. I think it is very possible that a new line of Cinnamons appeared spontaneously or that it's something new that ressembles a Cinnamon. What makes this confusing is that the original female doesn't appear to be producing any Cinnamons - and I expected to see some in my 2008 or 2009 clutch. The 2006 cross female did in fact produce one Cinnamon-looking animal, which was just as exciting for me than the Pastel x Mojave x Espresso cross (as awesome as it looks!). Future breedings will help clear the puzzle up, but my take on it: the original female will likely turn out to be nothing but a normal and the "Espresso" gene will be a new line of Cinnamons (with or without accompanying defects).

Can't wait to see the results, because no matter what the end result of this whole project will be, the genetics part of all of this is completely fascinating to me! This is was made me "tick" when I was working with Ball Pythons. All the best to the crew working with the project - I wish you all the best with it!

Alex: no Charcoal project involved with the animals discussed in this thread... time for you to get to work and see if there was anything going on there or not! ;-)

Regards,
Bristen.

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Actually, for anyone interested, the second clutch the original female produced for me was in 2009, and I had started a blog that has a few pictures there of the babies (no Cinnamon looking babies there):
http://royalgemreptiles.blogspot.com/2009/08/hatched-espresso-and-mojave-clutches.html

Regards,
Bristen.