PVC cage heat with UTH / Radiant Heat Panel or BOTH? Cool room.

I am wanting to add some larger snakes to my collection and want to get some 47x23x12 PVC cages from Repi-Racks to house them. These cages will be in my guest room/snake room so I do not heat the room with a free standing heater so the room is not overly hot for guest. Not that I have to many, I think the snakes help keep them away. I have the air vent closed and the temps are in the low 70's throughout the day in the summer.

Being that I have a cooler "snake room" than most I have a feeling that I will need a little bit of heat added if I only run a UTH. So to the question.

How to heat the cages? Can those of you that use PVC cages tell me what you find is the best method of heating the cages thinking of my situation of having a cooler room. Should I use a UTH, Radiant Heat Panel, or Both? Being that I have a cooler room and knowing that in the winter it will be alittle colder I was thinking having both set up would be good in the event I need more heat. Over prepare. Better to have it and not need it line of thought.

Also I was wondering how yall have set up your cages if you do use both. Meaning, UTH on one side and RHP over head of it, UTH on one side and RHP centered in cage, or UTH on one side and the RHP on the cool side? I was thinking that the best option for ME is having a UTH as a hot spot and use the RHP to boost the ambient temps as needed. How would yall set this this up?

I thought of using tubs and want to go the cage route for this project.

I think you should have a UTH too because if it is cold out the snake will want to curl up and be warm, probably on a heat source, and, if it is warmer you can turn off the light. I think it is easier that way.

Any PVC users up yet?

I was wondering the same thing. Can someone chime in on this?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

My room can hit mid 60's. I have both an RHP and flexwatt. The Rhp helps keep the ambient temps in the 80's while the flexwatt keeps his hotspot at around 90.

My enclosure is custom built but I had to use a RHP and Flexwatt for heating. I have a glass panel on he bottom but the rest of the enclosure is PVC. So I would assume you will need to use Flexwatt for your warm side and RHP for ambients :) Works great for me no matter the temp of the room 65-78 my temps stay a constant 80.1 and 89.9 in my enclosure. Only issue I had was buying a T-stat that would control both heat sources:P

Repti-Racks emailed me back this morning. They told me that they do not sell any RHP but pointed me in the right direction by suggesting Pro Products. I can have the RHP drop shipped to Repti-Racks and they will install them for no charge. That way it just plug and play.

I'm running into ambient temp issues in my PVC enclosure using just flexwatt. I have a radiant heat panel ready, just need to go pick up my herpstat2 at the end of the week and I'll get back to you with results, hopefully have an improvement from 74-75 average ambient.

Here's the setup as of today, cluttered it up with some plants and his old hides. http://img.tapatalk.com/189601e3-10ec-c205.jpg

I use my herpstat 2 for my flexwatt and rhp. Was a bigger expense, but it's so awesome!

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Originally Posted by Bobbafett

My room can hit mid 60's. I have both an RHP and flexwatt. The Rhp helps keep the ambient temps in the 80's while the flexwatt keeps his hotspot at around 90.

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What size enclosure do you have? I'm trying to decide what wattage of RHP to use. I plan on using flex watt for belly heat, but maintaining ambient temps are definitely an issue for my house. I'm drawing up designs for a 4x2x3 (lwh), but i'm undecided between the 40 watt and 80 watt models from reptile basics.

This is my first build so I have a more related questions, if you have the time.

I have never seen more than one or two degree increase to ambient temp with a RHP as it is a RADIANT heat panel this is not unexpected, UTH is also radiant so how physics applies to one and not the other I have never understood. Unless you place a thermometer in direct line with the panel then it is not air temps but radiant temp and the same as surface temp.

Neither Radiant heat panels or UTH do much for ambient air temps. Lights however do a HUGE amount. A basic 2 foot fluorescent light will easily lift 10º-14º over room in a PVCx enclosure and a deep blue LED with internally 110 voltage will lift 8-10º over the room temp. This is way cheaper safer and easier. To my mind in a terrestrial enclosure I would use a UTH and light.


http://www.wisc-online.com/Objects/V...aspx?ID=sce304

This is interesting to me. I am looking into Animal Plastics or Proline 48 X 24 X 18" or 15" depending on which I go with, for a Colombian boa. One of the makers said a radiant heat panel alone would be fine in a room that gets as cold as 68F at night during the winter. I'm not sure how to look at this thread.

Currently we have my son's Royal in a 40 gal breed glass tank that I've insulated and covered except the front. I have a UTH and a infrared bulb hooked into a Herpstat II. I have perfect ambient temps and belly temps. I even have to back down the humidity as it hit 90% this morning after I covered the screen with a fresh damp towel.

Going to a plastic enclosure with a RHP and UTH was the plan, then I was told the right RHP would make the UTH unnecessary. Ideally, I'd like to only have and LED or FLO light for viewing and not hooked up to a Herpstat.

After reading this I feel like I'm going to have to get back into the "Lights" for ambient temps and I'd rather not. I rarely see plastic type cages with light for heat unless it's the Vision cages so how do people with 1 plastic cage do it? Do I really need to have light cut outs?

Initially I'd try the RHP and see what I end up with. If that were to fail I'd probably add a UTH, but really don't want to have to use lights for heat.

Side note: This is all IF my wife ever allows this to happen LOL : ) . I'd still like to hear more info from different people on this.

I've got an AP t8- 4' by 2' by 1', divided into 2 enclosures. I have 11" flexwatt installed in the middle, and 1 40 watt RHP installed on the ceiling of each side toward the middle(over the flexwatt). A herpstat II controls both heat sources. In a room that falls to 60F every night, my hot spot stays around 92F,cold spot 77, and ambients around 80.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

I have never seen more than one or two degree increase to ambient temp with a RHP as it is a RADIANT heat panel this is not unexpected, UTH is also radiant so how physics applies to one and not the other I have never understood. Unless you place a thermometer in direct line with the panel then it is not air temps but radiant temp and the same as surface temp.

Neither Radiant heat panels or UTH do much for ambient air temps. Lights however do a HUGE amount. A basic 2 foot fluorescent light will easily lift 10º-14º over room in a PVCx enclosure and a deep blue LED with internally 110 voltage will lift 8-10º over the room temp. This is way cheaper safer and easier. To my mind in a terrestrial enclosure I would use a UTH and light.


http://www.wisc-online.com/Objects/V...aspx?ID=sce304

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How do you keep the temps up at night when the lights are off?

Deep blue LED lights. They come in two types externally ballast and internally (not sure ballast is the right name) the majority are internal (especially aquarium lights) they run in the high 90s The white FLD lights come on around 8-8pm and the blue run 7pm-9am an hour over lap (I have dimmable FLD so they drop over the hour). The blue lights hold 8-10º F over ambients. The whole set up dimming bulbs and all is less than a RHP and using regular FLD lights would be much less.

My typical temps 80º surface temp cool and 90º surface hot, stable.
Ambient temps are the coolest at 4am about 77º
they gain about 1 degree every hour and a half to two hours until they max at around 84-5º then they start to drop again.

The problem isn't enough temps but spilling unwanted temps in the summer. During summer I often have the white on in the am and off in the late am to afternoon then on for a few hours again. As the room is light it isn't a huge switch.

I can't say this for certain but with my 11 royals the ones housed in enclosures (6) feed better than the 5 in the rack. I switch them every 18 months and the feeding habits switch with them. I believe that this is mostly due to the natural shift of ambient air temps in my enclosures over the unchanging ambient and surface temps of the rack. It is just a pet therory but the only difference I can figure. The enclosures animals eat 22% more than the rack animals. It has got to be air temps or light cycle one or the other or both. Not sure it is all guess work.


Why people seem to think RHP change ambient air temps I cannot fathom. in floor radient heat and in ceiling radient heat is basically the same and yet it always seems keepers believe they are drastically different.

Reptile basics FAQ on RHPs

"Infrared Heat tends to heat objects more than the air, much like the natural sunlight outdoors. This type of heat mimics real sunlight both in the direction it comes from and its penetration into the muscle tissue. IR heat has been shown to have a therapeutic effect on sick and injured animals as well. Your reptiles will spend less time basking and receive a much greater benefit from it."
Royals do not 'bask' and as we all know the sun does not heat up air.

I agree that RHP work the same as UTH.
I couldn't get that link to work but it might be my phone.

Is there a brand name you use for the blue LEDs?

3skulls, I found this and it might be of use to you.

http://www.reptilebasics.com/led-lighting

I may end up doing the same.

Thanks Kitedemon. I am not sure what my plan will be if I ever do the AP PVC enclosure. I'd be doing it for a boa, but I guess I'd still need some lights for ambient temps. Of course everything gets more expensive and the snake is probably only $70-$100.

Damn this hobby!! LOL!

I think much depends on the set-up. Clearly, the RHPs in my t8 are affecting the ambient temps, and not by just a few degrees. At any moment over the last two weeks, the temp inside the enclosure has been between 10 and 20 degrees F warmer then the temp outside the enclosure. Now, I've got cypress mulch as substrate, along with terra cotta pots as hides. The RHP warms the pot and the mulch below it, which, in turn, transfers some heat to the air...I think the mulch plays a big role here as it has much more surface area in contact with the air then a flat surface would. This, coupled with the limited height of the t8, allows the ambients to stay elevated where they are. My two cents.

Infrared heat warms objects then those objects affect ambient temps, at least that is the philosophy of the heater I use in my bedroom that is not connected to the house heat. Trust me I stay toasty here in north west Ohio. I don't know how that translates to a mostly empty cage, I use 2 UTH with a dual zone thermostat, and a black incandescent lamp on a dimmer.

While true the sun does not heat the air, it does heat the ground, which heats the air. Far infrared waves also heat moisture which affects air temps.

I would definitely plan on 2 heat sources for your enclosure but I personally can't recommend an RPH until I have used one. There are good folks here that use florescent lighting to raise the ambient temp with great success, I would start there.

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Originally Posted by dav4

I think much depends on the set-up. Clearly, the RHPs in my t8 are affecting the ambient temps, and not by just a few degrees. At any moment over the last two weeks, the temp inside the enclosure has been between 10 and 20 degrees F warmer then the temp outside the enclosure. Now, I've got cypress mulch as substrate, along with terra cotta pots as hides. The RHP warms the pot and the mulch below it, which, in turn, transfers some heat to the air...I think the mulch plays a big role here as it has much more surface area in contact with the air then a flat surface would. This, coupled with the limited height of the t8, allows the ambients to stay elevated where they are. My two cents.

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Where is the ambient air temps measured with and location? Typically when people say this they are measuring under the RHP this is not measuring air temps in this case but the surface of the probe being heated by the RHP. To measure then place it at least 6 inches away from the RHP middle height of the enclosure and suspended from the ceiling. The last person whom said exactly this found the with no lights running at all (1 hour after they were shut down) the air temp was 3º over the room about the same as I found in my test enclosure. She found that the lights made the temp difference not the RHP. Try it.

The thought that placing a UTH on the enclosure and it not heating the air then turning the enclosure up side down and it suddenly heating the air is crazy. This is all a RHP is a carbon element in a box. No different than flexwatt on the bottom of a PVC enclosure if you use ABS enclosures and thin walled it is the same.

The thing that really is concerning is where is the probe placed. I do not believe a snake should under any circumstances be able to come between a heat source and probe. All my tests the only probe placement that works is dangling from the panel but it is kinda sketchy. I have two RB 40w RHPs one I tested in a 12 inch PVCx enclosure (no snake) for 3 months. When I ran a full power test I hit 150º on the (1/4 inch thick) substrate. This is as hot as my UTH get. Too hot by far. The arboreal set up (26 inches) the floor never gets over 80º there is always escape for the snake from a burn. IMO they should not be used in heights less than 18 inches as they can easily over heat the floor in shorter enclosures.

I think I'm going to try the RHPs soon. I have flexwatt on the boaphiles and not real happy with it. I like my substrate to be thicker with my boas. The heat coming from above would be better I think.
As of right now the ambient temps are good, I'm worried about this winter. I really don't want to add another space heater in the room.

Thanks for the link Gio. Have you found any in the deep blue?

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Originally Posted by arialmt

Infrared heat warms objects then those objects affect ambient temps, at least that is the philosophy of the heater I use in my bedroom that is not connected to the house heat. Trust me I stay toasty here in north west Ohio. I don't know how that translates to a mostly empty cage, I use 2 UTH with a dual zone thermostat, and a black incandescent lamp on a dimmer.

While true the sun does not heat the air, it does heat the ground, which heats the air. Far infrared waves also heat moisture which affects air temps.

I would definitely plan on 2 heat sources for your enclosure but I personally can't recommend an RPH until I have used one. There are good folks here that use florescent lighting to raise the ambient temp with great success, I would start there.

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Yes exactly. The suns rays do heat objects and they in turn heat the air. Very true but the loss of efficiency is 80-90%? If you have a 24 inch square object lets say black plastic in the sun you can fry an egg on it. If you place the egg in shell (white reflecting the suns rays) 6 inches over it on a metal grate it will not cook at all. 150ºF on the surface and in 6 inches it is down to only a few degrees more than the air temps. Massive heat loss and very inefficient, RHPs do heat the air some just not much. IR heaters are great when you are in front of it and cool when you are not.

[QUOTE=kitedemon;1959099]Where is the ambient air temps measured with and location?

The probe was placed on top of the hide on the cold side...80F this afternoon with a room temp of 64F. The probe read 92F when placed under the rhp.

Honestly, I agree with most of what you're saying, but they are improving ambients for me in my set up, and I'm quite pleased it. I think, also, that it needs to be mentioned again that I've got a herpstat thermometermaintaining things where I want them...a dimmer or low quality thermostat wouldn't cut it here.

I just don't think your ambients are coming from the RHP at least not 100% a few degrees maybe but not ten. I am not doubting you at all it just makes no sense.

If you place you hand in the enclosure not under or close to the RHP (with the RHP on) and move your hand toward it until it is directly under the panel there is a point where there is a marked and drastic temp change. Do you agree? Every panel I have seen this is exactly how it works. If it were heating the AIR the air beside the panel would be the same so the change would be gradual not dramatic. See what I am saying? Do you have a light in your set up?

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

I just don't think your ambients are coming from the RHP at least not 100% a few degrees maybe but not ten. I am not doubting you at all it just makes no sense.

If you place you hand in the enclosure not under or close to the RHP (with the RHP on) and move your hand toward it until it is directly under the panel there is a point where there is a marked and drastic temp change. Do you agree? Every panel I have seen this is exactly how it works. If it were heating the AIR the air beside the panel would be the same so the change would be gradual not dramatic. See what I am saying? Do you have a light in your set up?

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I have flourescent lights installed in the enclosure but hardly turn them on, so they aren't a factor. I just took some random measurements with my IR temp gun. The back corner of the enclosure below the ventilation slats, which is farthest away from the RHP, measured 73F on the inside, the rest of the walls on the inside of the enclosure measured 75-78F. The outside temp of the enclosure walls is 67F...the temperature of the room (measured with a digital thermometer) is 62.5F

Again, I'm not saying that the RHP is DIRECTLY warming the air. The air is being indirectly heated by the mulch, hides, and enclosure walls that are being warmed by the rhp. Using your reference to cooking an egg in the sun and taking it a step further, how hot would the air temperature be 6 inches above where the egg is being cooked if you placed a 10 gal aquarium over it? How hot was it in your car on the hottest day of this past summer? How hot does it get in your attic on a hot summer day? I'm guessing the answers to each of my questions would be more then a couple of degrees warmer then the outside temperature. The heat is being captured and contained within the enclosure instead of dissipating into the surroundings...this makes sense to me.

You are not measuring ambient temps in your enclosure. IR guns measure surfaces not air. I often see seven degrees difference in surface to air temps. Your walls are 5 degrees warmer than the air if that holds your ambient could be 70-73ºF in the enclosure I know there is no relation it is just to make a point. i don't like seeing below 76º personally and prefer warmer 78º.

Yes cars are heated by radiant heat and then the convection heats the interior this is a product of thermal mass however the mass of your enclosure is relatively slight compared. I am not saying there is no difference just not much.

So you would also say a UTH makes a large difference in air temps?

I am interested because I tested my 40w panel 6 ways to Sunday and I found at most 3º difference not much at all. I spend three months trying different things the largest change was adding a 12 pound rock directly under the RHP this added a handful of degrees 4 I think i don't remember but it is hardly practical or safe as it came a few inches of the panel so the snake could lodge there and cook.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

You are not measuring ambient temps in your enclosure. IR guns measure surfaces not air. I often see seven degrees difference in surface to air temps. Your walls are 5 degrees warmer than the air if that holds your ambient could be 70-73ºF in the enclosure I know there is no relation it is just to make a point. i don't like seeing below 76º personally and prefer warmer 78º.

Yes cars are heated by radiant heat and then the convection heats the interior this is a product of thermal mass however the mass of your enclosure is relatively slight compared. I am not saying there is no difference just not much.

So you would also say a UTH makes a large difference in air temps?

I am interested because I tested my 40w panel 6 ways to Sunday and I found at most 3º difference not much at all. I spend three months trying different things the largest change was adding a 12 pound rock directly under the RHP this added a handful of degrees 4 I think i don't remember but it is hardly practical or safe as it came a few inches of the panel so the snake could lodge there and cook.

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I know that IR guns measure surface temps...I included these measurements to point out that the coldest place in the cage is still almost 11 degrees warmer then the room temp.

As far as the UTH affecting ambients, I honestly don't have much experience with them, but I've always understood them to be inneffective at warming anything other then the bottom of a cage. Honestly, I feel that the increased surface area of the mulch, and the resultant increased efficiency of heat transfer to the air is playing a big role in my set-up...I also think that a 40w RHP is more effective warming the mulch then a 2' length of flexwatt.

How big/what was the height of the enclosure you used when testing out your enclosure? I would guess enclosures with higher ceilings would not have the ambients my enclosure has, keeping everything else equal. Just guessing...

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Originally Posted by dav4

How big/what was the height of the enclosure you used when testing out your enclosure? I would guess enclosures with higher ceilings would not have the ambients my enclosure has, keeping everything else equal. Just guessing...

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...I just read through one of the earlier posts and saw you were using a 40w RHP and had a 12" ceiling. What was the foot print of the enclosure? I suspect that if I removed the divider to my t8 and disabled one of the RHPs, my ambients would drop significantly.

my test enclosure is 24x24x12 so same height. I also have one in a much larger enclosure but it is semi arboreal where the RHP works to create a hot spot perfectly. I would be interested to see what the air temps would be measured with the unit you use in the room typically digital units take 30 min to stabilize so it is a bother I get it. I am just curious. It is possible but I would not expect wood chips to hold or release much heat little thermal mass. I don't know it just doesn't make much sense to me. The only thing I wonder is are your ambient air temps what you think they are? I am assuming you have checked with something able to measure them?

Blue leds

something like this is what I have there are tons of them on ebay.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/New-Aquarium-...ht_6444wt_1114

I use an accurite digital thermometer...just had the probe over toward the back of the cage away from the RHP/warm spot, maybe 6" off the ground- it read 79F.

I feel comfortable with the accuracy of the readings I'm getting. It feels warm inside the cage, and even warmer under the RHP, and the thermometers says it's warm inside the enclosure away from where the RHP could actually directly heat something. The two snakes housed within the t8 are eating/doing fine. Finally, it's been chilly in my bedroom!! I love sleeping in a cold bedroom...upper 50's to low 60's is perfect!

It's too late tonight, but either tomorrow or over the weekend, I'll take some pictures of the enclosure and we'll see if things can become clearer.

I am very curious to hear what everybody with these types of cages does for ambient heat. The one thing I really do like about our glass tank is the fact we get the benefit of an infrared light for heat and for viewing. It dims when the temps get close to perfect because the Herpstat does such a great job, but for the most part we do get to see into the cage at night and the infrared waves do not disturb the snake like a white light would.

I really want a plastic cage but I want to hear from people that have tricks and ideas for heat. Kitedemon makes a lot of sense to me and I'm not convinced that a RHP and UTH would be the magic solution for me.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Blue leds

something like this is what I have there are tons of them on ebay.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/New-Aquarium-...ht_6444wt_1114

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I'm having a hard time believing that these will do a good job of heating an enclosure, but it would be a pretty painless solution. Any idea if the blue light bothers the snake at night? Would you be able to use these lights effectively as a heating device with a HerpStat?

Im guessing its the ballast giving off the heat and not the LEDs. If you feel it's too bright, I'm sure you could tape off the light..? And how do you attach the light to the cage?

Good discussion, keep it up!

Also I understand that the RHP works the same as the UTH, with radiant heat. With that said it seems like if you put 40 or 80 watts worth of flexwatt in the top of you cage, the ambient temps would have to go up.

Where are Adam and Jamie from mythbusters?

It is the electronics I think for sure. Ballast I used that term but maybe transformer is more correct not that it matters much. No pythons don't see blue light well there is an article that describes the eye sight in depth of royals. They don't see blues or UV well at all and see yellows and reds (orange by default) really well. Clearly as we all know they hunt by IR seeing red is quite obvious. I actually have altered the leds to make them dimmer (sanded the plastic and pulled the tube apart and slid a bit of paper into it to diffuse and dim the light down.

Yes excellent discussion!! Kitedemon, am I way off in having an infrared light in our tank? I guess at this point with perfect sheds, temp and feeding, up until the fall weather and light patterns hit I thought we were spot on. The tank is always lit up to some extent in the cooler weather. Summer is a different story unless we have to use the AC, but I thought our infrared light was the way to go. I can't say I'd change much as we've had such a good go so far. I looked at some herpetology articles on eye sight of Royals and may have even linked it here hope I am not stressing the animal with our setup. Nothing says we are as far as behavior, feeding and shedding.

Ultimately when I end up with one of these plastic cages it will be for a Colombian boa. I am trying to get things set for housing that type of snake. Differences don't seem extreme between the two which is good.

I feel pretty good about our current setup, actually really good. But when we start talking about PVC type cages and boas, I'm not at all sure what the best formula is.

When trying to keep costs down, and I don't mean skimping, I gets difficult to figure out what is needed, and what is not worth it at all.

What do most folks with BCI or BCC boas do with their plastic enclosures in areas where there are cold seasons?

http://images56.fotki.com/v1602/phot...1/blue2-vi.jpgHosted on Fotki

Attaching it depends on the enclosure this one is hot glued I have brackets that were screwed in place some are zip tied. Which ever works.
http://images58.fotki.com/v154/photo...ledtemp-vi.jpgHosted on Fotki

33.1ºC is 91.6ºF I scanned about and hit a 34.7ºC as well that is 94.5ºF.

As promised, a picture. This is the right side portion of the t8. The divider of the t8 is the black wall to the left and the flexwatt runs directly below it. The 40w RHP is on the ceiling in the foreground (its really centered on the ceiling from front to back- optical illusion at work here), just to the right of the divider. The accurite probe was placed into the terra cotta hide(probably 4-5" off the ground) on the cold side maybe 40 minutes before this picture was taken. It's reading 81F...room temp 62F. If anyone has a better way of measuring ambients, let me know.

For the record, this is the first time I have EVER used RHPs, Flexwatt, or PVC caging. Historically, I've always used either aquariums or DIY wooden cages heated with various heat producing bulbs or CHEs...heat, humidity, and maintenance were always big issues. Getting back into the hobby recently, I wanted a set-up that was more user friendly...I've had this one up and running for less then a month but it seems to be working as planned.
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/9277/dscf1275g.jpg

How hard is it to install the RHP? I know it's just a couple of screws but do they go through the cage?

I have 2x 60gal Zoomed UTH's as side heat pn my PVC enclosures. But my snake room is also heated to 75-80 degree ambient so it keeps it perfect. But I used to have them in my living room and the ambient temps would drop to 60 degrees, even with the two heating pads. It's very hard to keep an enclosure that size heated properly if you don't have the room heated.

PVC is also not a very conductive material. My UTH's are set to 100+ just to hit a 89 degree hot spot.

dav4 Nice set up. I am skeptical about the mulch doing much of anything heat wise but flower pots and that (very heavy) water bowl (I have same one) are a different story there is 3-7 pounds of thermal mass there representing a fairly large amount of floor space.

http://images61.fotki.com/v440/photo...31/lucy-vi.jpgHosted on Fotki

No thermal mass.

Question, I am guessing your probe is on the floor? If you are seeing that much effect to ambients are you not concerned that the snake may lay or poop on the probe causing the panel to spike up in temp and take the ambient air temp with it? The reason they are safe is they don't be inherent nature heat the air so as long as the floor doesn't get too hot (mine does however) and the snake doesn't lay against the panel there is no way to get burned. If you are seeing 10º at 90 I would extrapolate 20º at 100 and close to 30º at the max temp of the 40w panel (mine is a little over 190ºF RB says 190º). I no longer use mine it is off just UTH and lights I have no problems at all the RHP made no difference at all. I actually after my experiences and this discussion has strengthened the belief they do not belong in enclosures less than 18 inches the reasons why they are 'safe' in short enclosures get negated by the proximity to the floor. If it heats the air they probe needs to be treated like the probe for a UTH (my hottest caps at 160 and most 100º) and kept so the snake cannot be in between the heat and probe (in it is on the floor between that and RHP in the ceiling) and if it isn't heating the air then why use one at all unless you need a gradient that goes up and down not across?

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Originally Posted by 3skulls

How hard is it to install the RHP? I know it's just a couple of screws but do they go through the cage?

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Easy...two screws into the ceiling...the pvc is 1/2" thick...screws were short enough not to pass completely through.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

dav4 Nice set up. I am skeptical about the mulch doing much of anything heat wise but flower pots and that (very heavy) water bowl (I have same one) are a different story there is 3-7 pounds of thermal mass there representing a fairly large amount of floor space.

http://images61.fotki.com/v440/photo...31/lucy-vi.jpgHosted on Fotki

No thermal mass.

Question, I am guessing your probe is on the floor? If you are seeing that much effect to ambients are you not concerned that the snake may lay or poop on the probe causing the panel to spike up in temp and take the ambient air temp with it? The reason they are safe is they don't be inherent nature heat the air so as long as the floor doesn't get too hot (mine does however) and the snake doesn't lay against the panel there is no way to get burned. If you are seeing 10º at 90 I would extrapolate 20º at 100 and close to 30º at the max temp of the 40w panel (mine is a little over 190ºF RB says 190º). I no longer use mine it is off just UTH and lights I have no problems at all the RHP made no difference at all. I actually after my experiences and this discussion has strengthened the belief they do not belong in enclosures less than 18 inches the reasons why they are 'safe' in short enclosures get negated by the proximity to the floor. If it heats the air they probe needs to be treated like the probe for a UTH (my hottest caps at 160 and most 100º) and kept so the snake cannot be in between the heat and probe (in it is on the floor between that and RHP in the ceiling) and if it isn't heating the air then why use one at all unless you need a gradient that goes up and down not across?

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The probe enters into the other side of the t8 through a drilled hole in the back- it rests about 4" off the ground and 1" off the wall.

Nice I didn't notice it. I know many choose to place the probe on the floor under the substrate with the RHP ceiling mounted it has never seemed to be a good idea to me.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Nice I didn't notice it. I know many choose to place the probe on the floor under the substrate with the RHP ceiling mounted it has never seemed to be a good idea to me.

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I agree. By the way, thanks for the great discussion we've had here. I never considered flourescents, never mind LEDs, as a heat source. I'm probably going to get another pvc enclosure in the near future and have some new heat source possibilities to consider.

One question. Do you regulate the heat production generated by the lights in any way? If you are using a thermostat for this, where did you place it? Thanks,

Dave

Couple more questions.

So if the heat coming off the RHP and UHT is radiant, what kind of heat is coming off the light?

What would be better to hold heat in, glass or acrylic doors?

I just want some new cages dammit :D

I would say it is convection coming off a bulb or electronics same as objects that have already been heated like roads. That is where mass (weight) comes in heavy objects take longer to heat but slowly give back that heat to air. The understanding I have is if a block took 3 hours to heat to a given temp that it will take three hours to cool back down to the original starting temp. The heavier the object the longer it takes to heat and to cool. This I believe is the difference between Dave and my experiences with RHP mine was heating a light plastic bowl to 80ºF in a few min and when the panel shuts down the bowl cooled off just as fast. The flower pot hides would take quite a lot longer to heat up to 80º and longer to cool off and likely before they did the RHP kicks in again. My thoughts on it anyway.

If the doors are equal thickness acrylic I would think but typically the glass doors are thicker so than it is a toss up. Glass will tend to be at room temps, acrylic tends to hold above slightly at least in my experience.

No I don't use a T-stat on the light. I run proportional units and neither FL lights or LED can be regulated with a triac controller. A dimmer also does not work normally unless you buy special lights (both FL and LED cheap off the shelf will not dim either) I use just a simple light timer. The range is quite large with ambient air temps so there is a lot of room to move (75º at the dead coolest and 88ºF at the warmest I usually run between 78-84 normally 77-85 sometimes). Mine change through the day warmest is between 2-5PM and coolest is 3-5am This is quite a natural rhythm as it is effected by the ambient room temps the enclosure is in. Inherently the LED lighting is cooler than the FL lighting. This makes the night temps a few degrees lower (2-4º or so) The FL lights take some time to get warm so they gradually increase in temp. The room typically becomes warmer during the day so it also increases.

The regulation is easy as all the changes are slow and fairly gradual it is just a matter of setting different timing. In the summer the lights are off most of the time as the room ambient are often close to correct. If there is an AC it stabilizes the temp so it is just a matter of adjusting on off times. As fall arrives I often have them on longer in the am then off during the afternoon and on in the evening. Winter brings central heating so reasonably stable temps in my case about 65º or so and I keep the lights on 12 hours each basically. Then as spring hits again on in the am and evening. With a range of ten degrees of acceptable ambient air temps I only adjust with the outside weather trends if it is warm for a while I'll shorten the light on times if cooler on longer. Huge precision is not needed the surface temps I run UTH it is unaffected. One of the designers I know would use this term,

'appropriate technology' There are occasions for high tech solutions and occasions for low tech ones. Ambient air temps have a huge range unlike hot spots so high tech pinpoint control is not needed. I run some serious high tech gear (Platinum Thermometer with a data logger) but then I also use very simple solutions too, my light timer is just a simple analogue pin switch I found it the easiest to set quickly.

Dave I very much enjoy discussions like this. I think I have some ideas that I may use to help with the issues I face in my enclosures. The more knowledge we all have of the methods others have used to solve their problems give each of us some insight to solving our own future problems. No set up is exactly the same as another and every person has different issues and requirements that often take a different solution than what someone else uses.

Dave thank you for sharing your methods it is a eye opener.