Learning to take the bad with the good.

So my long anticipated Fire clutch is hatching out. The first two babies out were fire's, and I was pretty darn excited. Well, as of last night I am up to 7 babies out. And have discovered that I didn't escape the effects of the brief temperature spike I had entirely.

About 3 weeks before the clutches were supposed to start pipping, my incubator had a temp spike, and I found it at 120 degrees. Naturally I unplugged it right away, opened the door and the egg tubs to drop the temps as fast as possible. Once it had stabilized at normal incubation temps, I hooked it back up and began my vigil. Every 15 minutes for 12 straight hours I checked that thing. Whatever went wrong must have fixed itself when I unplugged it, because it's never wavered since.

When my first clutch of 6 hatched out fine, I was sure I had dodged the bullet. Then when the first three babies of the fire clutch were fine, I was finally relaxed. Then when the next group started pipping, I noticed one baby was eyeless, like my Athena. So much for dodging the bullet. Now today while photographing the 4 new babies to emerge, I discovered that while three of them have an insane black back thing going on, one of them only has one eye. There are still three eggs to go, so time will tell if there are any more problems.

Now I know I have a right to be upset and dissapointed, but truthfully if all that happens is a couple of the babies have minor problems like this, I will consider myself extremely fortunate. I know that things could have been much worse. I could have lost all of the babies. They could have been kinked or deformed to the point they could not survive, or worse I might have had to put them down myself.

So all things considered, I will take this tiny amount of bad with my massive amount of good, and be content. And now, the pictures of the babies I know you all want to see.

Baby #1 a beautiful fire


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...eHatchling.jpg

Baby #2 is also a fire, but it's pictures came out blurry, have to get more later.

Baby # 3 normal
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...es/Number3.jpg

Baby #4 a normal with a black back

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...es/Number4.jpg

Baby #5 another black back
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...es/Number5.jpg

Baby #6 the eyeless fire. Prettiest baby out so far
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...es/Number6.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...Number6eye.jpg

Baby #7 ridiculous black back. This one only has one eye.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...es/Number7.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...Number7eye.jpg

Gale

they are beautiful!!! if ever you want to sell any of them, look me up

Those are some beautiful babies. The eyeless fire and the one eyed black back are amazing!


I'm sorry that some came out eyeless, we had a temp spike with our corn eggs and ended up with 4 DIE and 3 kinked. We had to put down 2 babies because they couldn't move properly and kept flipping over on their backs. It was horrible :(

Despite the obvious defects, I think you're lucky considering the huge spike. Your babies hatched, the ones here aren't showing kinks or anything horribly wrong. In fact, an eyeless BP doesn't bother nearly as much as a kinked one does, if that makes sense. Heck, I would add that little eyeless Fire to my collection any day! I do presentations at schools frequently and there's something people can relate to when one of them has an ailment. Almost like they can sympathize with them, rather than judge them as 'creepy'.

Fingers crossed for your other babies for sure!

First of all, congrats on the clutch! I'm sorry that two of them are eyeless. But hopefully that won't impair their quality of life and ability to thrive!
Both are by far the most gorgeous in the clutch! I would take them any day if I had space!

They all look good. The eyeless fire has a remarkable color and pattern.

Eyeless or not they all have great patterns

Eyes or no eyes those babies are amazing looking, I would have no problem buying a snake if it had no eyes long as it was healthy and eating.

Nice looking little babies. I agree, the eyeless fire is very pretty! I would take her any day too. Congrats!

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

Amazing little troopers those missing eyes.
Interesting how crazy things can go with a temp spike. Congrats on the clutch. Glad they survived. 120 is super hot. They are lucky little babies.

Can a temp spike produce hermaphrodite snakes? I just thought of that...does it occur with snakes?

Great photos

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Sorry to read about the problems with incubation. Next year, you might want to consider a backup thermostat for your incubator. That way, if you have a spike the backup will shut it down or keep it within range. Hope they all thrive for you.

Glad they ended up as healthy as they are, considering that intense spike! Makes me feel slightly less concerned about the 93 degrees I caught the incubator at a couple days ago due to the sun hitting the snake room just right.

glad that it wasn't too bad with such a high spike. I would not count on the thermostat fixing itself. if it happen once it could happen again. replace it, it's the most important part of your incubator. most of the herpstats have high and low temp alarms that you can set. not sure if they will work if the thermostat malfunction or not. but with me just opening the door to check on the eggs will set it off. good luck with that clutch, keep us posted on their progress, don

Gale, those are some spectacular looking babies - eyes or no eyes!! Congrats on all the clutches! I know you've had a few "offers" for a couple of these, but if you're looking to place any of those babies with no eyes in a permanent caring home, I'd be happy to help you out. I also do some educational programs for our school districts and I have had special needs reptiles in the past. Just let me know if I can help in any way. ;)

Gorgeous babies! Glad they're not kinked...

I wonder, though, on a temperature spike so late in the development, would kinking happen? Or would kinking more likely happen with an earlier incubation temp spike? just my curiosity...

Great babies! Would you post pics of the parents?

Thank you to everyone who responded.

And yes, even without eyes they are beautiful, everything I hoped from the pairing. I am humbled and touched everyone has offered the little fire a home. As of yet, I don't know if it will be staying with me or not. Since I have one eyeless snake already, and everything about her is normal as can be, I have high hopes for these babies doing well. Since I know the cause of the issue with these, I wouldn't feel bad letting them go to be potential breeders in the future. Which brings me to a question.

Please answer honestly. Would you, knowing the cause of the eyelessness, willingly buy a baby such as that fire with the intention of breeding it in the future? It wouldn't be the same price as a perfect baby of course, but would you even consider it?

Gale

Quick Update.

As of right now, another baby has joined us, a fire. There is also another head out, a second eyeless fire. The remaining egg appears to be another fire, this one has both eyes.

Pictures:

Baby # 2, who did NOT want to sit still for a photo!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...akes/Baby2.jpg

Baby # 8 another fire. Darker than the others, but ohhhh the blushing!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...es/Baby8-1.jpg

Baby # 9, the second eyeless fire.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...akes/Baby9.jpg

Group Photo!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...GroupPhoto.jpg

Gale

I would not mind picking an eyeless snake up but it would be a pet and not a breeder.

Honestly, not sure how much I would be willing to pay for one. If I were spending money to add good genes to a breeding program, I would want top of the line. But for the right price would welcome one into my home, as a pet in a heartbeat.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

I would buy an eyeless bp if I knew that it wasn't due to genetic defects.

Either way, they deserve a great home, whether you choose to hang on to them or not.

Though, you know, I am almost a neighbor, down here in Springfield, MO. You know, just in case you want to find a home where you can check in from time to time. ;)

The eyeless fire is a beauty for sure. I'm happy for you that you didn't have anything worse than some missing eyes as a result of the spike!

Adorable little special babies! Sent you a PM! :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by angllady2

Thank you to everyone who responded.

And yes, even without eyes they are beautiful, everything I hoped from the pairing. I am humbled and touched everyone has offered the little fire a home. As of yet, I don't know if it will be staying with me or not. Since I have one eyeless snake already, and everything about her is normal as can be, I have high hopes for these babies doing well. Since I know the cause of the issue with these, I wouldn't feel bad letting them go to be potential breeders in the future. Which brings me to a question.

Please answer honestly. Would you, knowing the cause of the eyelessness, willingly buy a baby such as that fire with the intention of breeding it in the future? It wouldn't be the same price as a perfect baby of course, but would you even consider it?

Gale

---

Gale,

First let me say that I am glad for you that most of the clutch is healthy.

While you do know the cause of the eyelessness, you don't yet know the full extent of the mutation that has occurred. You are only considering the visual. Not to be a downer, but are the animals sterile, has their life expectancy been altered, if they can reproduce, what mutations may occur, what about neurological issues, etc.?

The are beautiful animals and there is the possibility that they will thrive and there is nothing wrong beyond what you can see. But since you asked, my opinion is that you should consider it fortunate that the animals survived at all, and look to keep them or adopt them out as pets with the stipulation they are not to be bred. From what I have read about other similar animals, they could make someone a wonderful pet, or for the person who posted that they do education, what an example of developmental genetic mutation caused by external stimuli? However, with the possibility of unknown variables, it may be irresponsible, for lack of a better word, to put them back into the gene pool. Just my $0.02

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by angllady2

Thank you to everyone who responded.

And yes, even without eyes they are beautiful, everything I hoped from the pairing. I am humbled and touched everyone has offered the little fire a home. As of yet, I don't know if it will be staying with me or not. Since I have one eyeless snake already, and everything about her is normal as can be, I have high hopes for these babies doing well. Since I know the cause of the issue with these, I wouldn't feel bad letting them go to be potential breeders in the future. Which brings me to a question.

Please answer honestly. Would you, knowing the cause of the eyelessness, willingly buy a baby such as that fire with the intention of breeding it in the future? It wouldn't be the same price as a perfect baby of course, but would you even consider it?

Gale

---

I would take the eyeless baby without hesitation.
I have a huge soft spot for the 'less than perfect' things of this world.

That was what initially got me into dog rescue many years ago.

I brought the 'death row' unwanteds home and fixed them up.

The staff at the local shelters thought I was crazy because I'd take the most wretched dogs home...until I came back a month later with a glossy, healthy, beautiful dog at my side.

One Doberman, the shelter lady refused to believe it was the same dog until I opened its mouth and showed her the dog's very distinctive 'distemper teeth'.

I love the things that others consider unlovable.

In retrospect, that's probably how I ended up with snakes.

:oops:

Though I probably wouldn't hesitate to breed it, it would mostly just be loved especially dearly because it's very 'special'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by angllady2

Quick Update.

As of right now, another baby has joined us, a fire. There is also another head out, a second eyeless fire. The remaining egg appears to be another fire, this one has both eyes.

Pictures:

Baby # 2, who did NOT want to sit still for a photo!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...akes/Baby2.jpg

Baby # 8 another fire. Darker than the others, but ohhhh the blushing!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...es/Baby8-1.jpg

Baby # 9, the second eyeless fire.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...akes/Baby9.jpg

Group Photo!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...GroupPhoto.jpg

Gale

---

They're all so dear.

My heart goes out to you and them.

Surely, the little eyeless ones deserve extra love and the best lives possible, considering.

:petting:

I thank you all again, and I appreciate your honest opinions.

Truthfully, I don't think these guys should be bred. There is the distinct possibility of other problems or complications not visible being present, as was brought out. Even if I kept them, they would never be bred. However, given the huge step that they can hunt and feed and shed and potty and grow normally, and that is a huge step, I can see letting some of my dear friends here provide them with forever homes, much like I did my Athena.

I will continue to update everyone on their progress, and if all goes well in a couple of months perhaps a few of you will have new friends.

Gale

I'm kinda like Salamander, lol. My husband says I always pick the most needy, bad off animals. I just always feel sorry for them. And I know they will be loved in my house. I guess that's why I live in a zoo, but I wouldn't have it any other way! I hope your little babies thrive!! Please do keep us posted. :)

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

Sorry to see that, some great looking visual patterned animals.

I would breed an eyeless animal I produced, if I knew the issue were due to a temp spike, and it was thriving. The risk of a reproductive issue doesn't seem particularly high to me. I'm not sure I would buy one, however.

It's always the prettiest snakes that turn out pet quality. :( So sorry for the guys with no eyes, but they sure are cute!

Do keep us updated, I'd love to hear and see how these babies grow. :snake:

It's really crazy what temp spikes/drops can do to patterns. I hope they all do well for you!

Are you going to get new equipment for the bator next year? I wouldn't count on unplugging it once to fix the problem unless there is a wiring problem in your house that would cause a power surge. In which case I would put a dimmer on everything immediately. Out of curiosity, what equipment where you using?

It's a quickly put together homemade incubator, and yes it's getting replaced. I really appreciate my hubby building this one, but it doesn't work nearly as well as he thought it would. I want to get a really nice one for next season, one that I know I won't have issues with. I expect to have even more clutches next year, and some will be quite high value, so I want no mistakes like this again.

Gale

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DrDooLittle

I'm kinda like Salamander, lol. My husband says I always pick the most needy, bad off animals. I just always feel sorry for them. And I know they will be loved in my house. I guess that's why I live in a zoo, but I wouldn't have it any other way! I hope your little babies thrive!! Please do keep us posted. :)

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

---

Guess what my nickname was as a kid?
[and still is]

"Ellie May" 'cuz I always had a passel of pitiful critters following me around.

I've had flightless crows, one-eared, stump-tailed near-roadkill possums, no-eyed wood rats, crippled groundhogs, dogs with every imaginable disability and that's just the ones off the top of my head.

I've 'brainwashed" the neighbor into not killing the 'worthless sparrows' [my favorite wild birds, naturally] because they serve a vital function in the ecosystem.

I've plead the case for 'obnoxious crows' when everybody was shooting them.

I just have a thing for the underdogs of the world, I reckon.

:)

[it's easy to love the loveable things so really, you haven't accomplished anything special. loving the unlovable is so much more rewarding..but herpers already know that]

:oops:

When I was younger I had a rabbit, whose mom had licked/chewed off both his ears and damaged on of his eyes. I took care of him, them got him neutered and kept him. I have also taken a rabbit (who wasn't a good first time momma) and her babies on vacation to the beach with us, so I could make sure the little ones nursed. Poor husband of mine, lol.... But he knew what he was getting into before we got married...:D

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DrDooLittle

When I was younger I had a rabbit, whose mom had licked/chewed off both his ears and damaged on of his eyes. I took care of him, them got him neutered and kept him. I have also taken a rabbit (who wasn't a good first time momma) and her babies on vacation to the beach with us, so I could make sure the little ones nursed. Poor husband of mine, lol.... But he knew what he was getting into before we got married...:D

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

---

Awwww!

Poor bun!

My last rabbit, Psycho Bunny passed away this February.
Her dad, "Booger" died last winter and I think she either pined away for him or 11 years is just about it for a rabbit.
[she outlived her mom and all her siblings, though]

My hubby knew too but even after 20 years, I still think he hasn't quite accepted it.

:D

UPDATE:

The last two babies are out. Both fire's. Baby number 9 is eyeless as well, number 10 has both eyes. The babies are going into blue now, and hopefully in another two weeks we will see how feeding goes.

Here are the newest photos:

Baby number 9. The most insane of the clutch.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...es/Baby9-1.jpg

Baby number 10. Another sweet little fire.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...kes/Baby10.jpg

Comparison of numbers 6 and 9. Six is on the right, and up until this one came out was the hottest. Number 9 puts it to shame.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...Babys9and6.jpg

I will be repeating this pairing next season if all goes well. I hope to see some more of these little beauties.

Gale

Adorable little snakies! Glad they are doing well!

Wow, number 9 is stellar. I love her! I got my fingers crossed everyone eats well for you!! Definately do that pairing again. :)

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by angllady2

UPDATE:

The last two babies are out. Both fire's. Baby number 9 is eyeless as well, number 10 has both eyes. The babies are going into blue now, and hopefully in another two weeks we will see how feeding goes.

Here are the newest photos:

Baby number 9. The most insane of the clutch.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...es/Baby9-1.jpg

Baby number 10. Another sweet little fire.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...kes/Baby10.jpg

Comparison of numbers 6 and 9. Six is on the right, and up until this one came out was the hottest. Number 9 puts it to shame.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...Babys9and6.jpg

I will be repeating this pairing next season if all goes well. I hope to see some more of these little beauties.

Gale

---

Such sweet little angels!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by angllady2

It's a quickly put together homemade incubator, and yes it's getting replaced. I really appreciate my hubby building this one, but it doesn't work nearly as well as he thought it would. I want to get a really nice one for next season, one that I know I won't have issues with. I expect to have even more clutches next year, and some will be quite high value, so I want no mistakes like this again.

Gale

---

You don't have to go out a buy a really nice incubator, making one yourself with quality equipment is just as good, and definitely a better bang for your buck. My incubator cost me about $30 to make out of an old fridge if you don't include the thermostat. I spent well over $100 on that and I have a back up thermostat on it. Even if you buy a cheapo incubator you still need to get a nice thermostat, so it doesn't really save you any money. I will always be on the side of making your own incubator. You get a way bigger bang for your buck. You spend $200 on a premade incubator and can put 2 clutches in it, or you can spend that on one you make yourself and fit 12 clutches in it.

Oh I know that Stephanie.

This one is just a few pieces of melamine slapped together. No insulation or anything. Like I said, just really quickly put together. He meant well, but it's not very good quality. Now we know more about what we need to make it work.

I plan to do one out of an old fridge/freezer we can convert. Our very first one was a tiny mini fridge, it worked okay for two, but that's it. Next season I could have as many as 16 clutches.

I also plan to invest in a backup T-stat.

Gale

My daughter was looking with me, and said (about#9) look mom, the mark on her neck behind her head looks like a heart. I hadn't noticed, but it does. Maybe that's her "good luck birth mark". :)

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2

Stunning little fires you have there. If it's any help I have a gorgeous pastel who only has one nornmal eye, the other one is tiny and almost scaled over-that was a temp spike too & I was told that none of her clutch mates made it out of the egg so I think that you have been quite lucky with yours. Anyway she feeds fine but does like her food on the warm side-I have the distinct impression that most royals see their food more with their heat pits than with their eyes anyway. I would take one without eyes over one without heat pits any day. Good luck with getting them feeding & best wishes for the babies.

#9 is absolutely gorgeous!

i would adopt them in a heart beat .