BOI or no BOI? That is the question.

Hey guys,

So I wonder if I should post a BOI on someone or not. So I'm asking advice on it.

So I've been looking for some adult het pied/pied females for my mojave het pied male breeder. I was searching around and found someone on fauna who had some available.

We discussed via texting by phone about the deal. I told him I just bought a pair of adult albino BPs locally (I said albinos, but one was het... the info wasn't important and shorter in text than saying exactly what I got) for a great deal and bought those recently (for like $250!!!! Woot!). Therefore, to get his two het pied females, I'd need to pay part now, and part later next month if I was going to do any deals.

He didn't have any real history on the BOI, but had posted a pic of a young pied BP before on fauna and on CL. He said he had papers on one and not the other-- which was supposed to be the dame of the pied.

Anyway, we decided on a deal for the animals, and I was happy with the risk involved. We talked by phone about the trade, because I was a bit hesitant to make installment payments for the snakes with someone who had NO history online if I didn't get the animals AT time of deposit. I offered info about my place of work and references. He was hesitant, and we worked out a deal that made us both happy.

However, the VERY NEXT DAY I was cruising some FB classifieds and saw he posted one of the females I was supposed to buy! He hadn't got any cash yet, but we had agreed to meet the following week in person for the deal. So I immediately messaged him asking if that was one of the females and if the deal was still on. Heard nothing for about a week.

He texts me yesterday saying he hadn't heard from me and wondered if I was interested. I said I messaged him on facebook and asked if he got it. He said, "No I didn't might went in the other folder." (my first thought was, uh... BS. What other folder on FB could you be talking about?) He said he never heard back from me and posted them because he thought I would text or call. (Maybe he doesn't check facebook?) However, not hearing from me in less than 24 hours isn't really a good reason to post the animal for sale.

Then he seemed to try and change the subject saying he wanted my albino female (which is actually a het, but had no reason to discuss it otherwise) we talked about "bad". But the way it was brought up made me feel uneasy... he was kind of ignoring what I was saying and just trying to get me to agree on trading her. There was never a possibility of a trade for my female-- so I didn't even want to talk about her any further.

Needless to say, I told him things seemed fishy, and I coudn't do a deal with hets with anyone that seems slightly shady and has no history.

I think the facebook thing alone seemed shady. If you make a deal, regardless if deposit has technically been made, you shouldn't go posting it for sale somewhere else. But then the whole weirdness I felt about the way he brought up the female albino made me feel weird.

The facebook posting after the deal is the only thing he really did that was inappropriate, but the other stuff was just all a gut feeling and theres no real evidence of shadiness-- all just intuition. With no history, I instantly thought SCAM.

Anyway, I've never done BOIs and am new to the idea of it, so I dunno if its BOI-able material. I totally felt weird about the deals, especially the way he brought up a trade--like I was going to get screwed on the deal.

Ideas?

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lol so I just found the "other" folder on FB...

No, I wouldn't post a BOI thread.

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imo it's not boi worthy, but he'd definitely be placed on my do not buy from or sell to list.

Buy hets from ppl who can prove that they made them and are willing to back up that claim with pics and references and you won't be so likely to be taken.
Just the lack of communication would have made me look elsewhere...

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Originally Posted by rabernet

No, I wouldn't post a BOI thread.

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I second this. Although there does seem to be some kind of confusion in this, I don't consider any animals I haven't at least put a deposit down for to be reserved by someone I don't personally know and have a specific arrangement with. He might have jumped the gun with how quickly he posted her, but he didn't really do anything wrong, either.

Nope not BOI worthy.. No money was exchanged and no animals were exchange..so Nothing happened other than two guys talking about possible's ..

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Originally Posted by PsychD_Student

Hey guys,

So I wonder if I should post a BOI on someone or not. So I'm asking advice on it.

So I've been looking for some adult het pied/pied females for my mojave het pied male breeder. I was searching around and found someone on fauna who had some available.

We discussed via texting by phone about the deal. I told him I just bought a pair of adult albino BPs locally (I said albinos, but one was het... the info wasn't important and shorter in text than saying exactly what I got) for a great deal and bought those recently (for like $250!!!! Woot!). Therefore, to get his two het pied females, I'd need to pay part now, and part later next month if I was going to do any deals.

He didn't have any real history on the BOI, but had posted a pic of a young pied BP before on fauna and on CL. He said he had papers on one and not the other-- which was supposed to be the dame of the pied.

Anyway, we decided on a deal for the animals, and I was happy with the risk involved. We talked by phone about the trade, because I was a bit hesitant to make installment payments for the snakes with someone who had NO history online if I didn't get the animals AT time of deposit. I offered info about my place of work and references. He was hesitant, and we worked out a deal that made us both happy.

However, the VERY NEXT DAY I was cruising some FB classifieds and saw he posted one of the females I was supposed to buy! He hadn't got any cash yet, but we had agreed to meet the following week in person for the deal. So I immediately messaged him asking if that was one of the females and if the deal was still on. Heard nothing for about a week.

He texts me yesterday saying he hadn't heard from me and wondered if I was interested. I said I messaged him on facebook and asked if he got it. He said, "No I didn't might went in the other folder." (my first thought was, uh... BS. What other folder on FB could you be talking about?) He said he never heard back from me and posted them because he thought I would text or call. (Maybe he doesn't check facebook?) However, not hearing from me in less than 24 hours isn't really a good reason to post the animal for sale.

Then he seemed to try and change the subject saying he wanted my albino female (which is actually a het, but had no reason to discuss it otherwise) we talked about "bad". But the way it was brought up made me feel uneasy... he was kind of ignoring what I was saying and just trying to get me to agree on trading her. There was never a possibility of a trade for my female-- so I didn't even want to talk about her any further.

Needless to say, I told him things seemed fishy, and I coudn't do a deal with hets with anyone that seems slightly shady and has no history.

I think the facebook thing alone seemed shady. If you make a deal, regardless if deposit has technically been made, you shouldn't go posting it for sale somewhere else. But then the whole weirdness I felt about the way he brought up the female albino made me feel weird.

The facebook posting after the deal is the only thing he really did that was inappropriate, but the other stuff was just all a gut feeling and theres no real evidence of shadiness-- all just intuition. With no history, I instantly thought SCAM.

Anyway, I've never done BOIs and am new to the idea of it, so I dunno if its BOI-able material. I totally felt weird about the deals, especially the way he brought up a trade--like I was going to get screwed on the deal.

Ideas?

- - - Updated - - -

lol so I just found the "other" folder on FB...

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So you wanted your animals with only a deposit down and then to pay the seller installments while the animals were in your possession?

Also, many breeders sell their animals to the first one who pays. I'll hold animal if "a deal is done" but sometimes the deposit isn't made and I never hear from the "buyer" again. I choose to make that connection with my customers and sometimes I get burned, as it sounds like the seller did in this case. Others (maybe the smarter ones) choose not to deal with this aggravation, say the deal's only done when the money's down, and there's nothing shady about conducting business that way.

I definitely dont plan on doing business with the person, but I didn't really want to jump the gun either. BOI could be a huge thing, so I didn't feel like the dude deserved to be drug through the mud. However, I figured if someone asked me about them, I would probably suggest they don't deal with the person based on my experience.

I'm aware of payment plans where the buyer holds the animals during the transactions, so I don't think that was a crazy request. I also offered to include references-- something I thought was a good selling point. He didn't offer any.

While the deposit wasn't made yet, our deal had been made. We were planning to meet in person the next week to save on shipping, etc... so the deposit couldn't have been made. I suppose we could have done paypal or something in that situation. I personally wouldn't have made a deal that I didn't feel like going through with-- or would have included stipulations regarding possible buyers who offered to pay in cash in full. I understand the desire to want the money up front. But at the same time, if a deal is made, then IMO the deal is set unless something comes up.

So I guess some of you felt like I did about the situation-- as far as no BOI but no business either.

You don't have to start a bad guy thread but you can post a warning or an information thread to let people know that a deal was made, not consumated, but a man's word should be his bond. Always trust your gut. You may miss a deal now and then, but there are always more deals.

No transaction occurred so I am not sure why you would want to post on the BOI.

As far as animal and their availability and being posted elsewhere here is my take on it as long as there is no money exchanged to me the animal is still available for sell (unless it is someone I know will come through with the payment those are generally friends and/or repeat customers).

People cannot hold an animal every time someone say I will get you the money next week. When I hold an animal that mean I received a deposit, no deposit no hold.

I would never pay anything up front to someone that is not an established breeder, and even then I would do it through Paypal. The world today is a sad place where few people can be trusted, especially online.

Your making the right call by not doing business with them. I think what he did was very wrong. If you have a deal with someone you don't make post still trying to sell the item. If it was already up and he leaves it until the transaction is complete then fine, but not making a new one. I have a deal right now to meet on sunday to get a new snake. I would be pretty steamed if I found new post from them trying to sell it. My mind would automatically jump to the thought I am being scammed or I am a future robbery target.

I always pay at the pickup. I also make sure to get vehicle plate numbers just in case things go south. Another good thing to do is try to remeber details about the seller you meet like tats, piercings, scars, etc.

I'm glad he didn't get you!

Yeah, just take your gut at its word and move on. You'll definitely want to keep the name and fauna username down so that if anything comes up with him again or in case you want to search the BOI again later.

Though, me personally, I'm right with you on it. As bad as it is to not want to touch someone with a ten foot pole based on a history or lack there of, dealing in hets is a whole other ball park of risk. And honestly, if he's gonna post it in less than 24 hours then that's a pretty definite stay away sign.


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Originally Posted by Deborah

No transaction occurred so I am not sure why you would want to post on the BOI.

As far as animal and their availability and being posted elsewhere here is my take on it as long as there is no money exchanged to me the animal is still available for sell (unless it is someone I know will come through with the payment those are generally friends and/or repeat customers).

People cannot hold an animal every time someone say I will get you the money next week. When I hold an animal that mean I received a deposit, no deposit no hold.

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Well Northern GA is pretty close to me, and thats where you're from. Let's say we decided today to meet next Tuesday July, 24 2012 somewhere like Chattanooga (about the middle between knox and N. GA) to purchase a BP you needed for a new breeding project. We talked on the phone, decided on the price, deposit, and payment plans. Then the very next day, you saw that I posted on Kingsnake or another classifieds page the exact same animals I was planning to sell you.

You wouldn't care, shrugging it off as just business?

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

Yeah, just take your gut at its word and move on. You'll definitely want to keep the name and fauna username down so that if anything comes up with him again or in case you want to search the BOI again later.

Though, me personally, I'm right with you on it. As bad as it is to not want to touch someone with a ten foot pole based on a history or lack there of, dealing in hets is a whole other ball park of risk. And honestly, if he's gonna post it in less than 24 hours then that's a pretty definite stay away sign.


Browsing on Tapatalk from my iPhone :)

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Thats exactly how I feel about it.

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Originally Posted by PsychD_Student

Well Northern GA is pretty close to me, and thats where you're from. Let's say we decided today to meet next Tuesday July, 24 2012 somewhere like Chattanooga (about the middle between knox and N. GA) to purchase a BP you needed for a new breeding project. We talked on the phone, decided on the price, deposit, and payment plans. Then the very next day, you saw that I posted on Kingsnake or another classifieds page the exact same animals I was planning to sell you.

You wouldn't care, shrugging it off as just business?

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If I did not place a deposit within minutes of our conversation via paypal, I could only blame myself if the animal is re-listed.

I generally (again based on whether or not I have done business with the person before) give someone 24 hours to come through with the deposit after that the length of the payment plan is based on the purchase amount. If within 24 hours of the email / phone conversation there is no down payment the animal will show as available again and if someone else purchase the animal in the mean time there is nothing I can do.

Of course there are ways to do this such as a reminder email "this has been 24 hours since our conversation etc" and if you don't hear from the person than you can assume they were not serious to start with.

There are a shady sellers but there are many buyers wasting peoples time also.

Follow your gut find another breeder (there are MANY out there) however I doubt there is a need to waste time on the BOI for a transaction that did not even occur.

In my opinion, no deposit, no sale. You're out no money. I can't count the number of times I've heard "I'll send money next week... tomorrow... next friday... when I get paid..." and never heard from them again. I've set up meetings with people, gone out to meet them and had them no show. No deposit means no sale has taken place and you could have flaked out on him and never done a deal. It's possible that if someone had inquired on the female pictured, that he would say "I have a pending deal..." too.

And for the record, I've never heard of any sale where the BUYER holds the animals after paying only a deposit. That's the most risky way to do it, since now one person has the money and the animal. I would never ship an animal that is not paid for, and haven't ever seen anyone that would.

This of course, does not include people that have done multiple deals together or know each other for years or business partners.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

If I did not place a deposit within minutes of our conversation via paypal, I could only blame myself if the animal is re-listed.

I generally (again based on whether or not I have done business with the person before) give someone 24 hours to come through with the deposit after that the length of the payment plan is based on the purchase amount. If within 24 hours of the email / phone conversation there is no down payment the animal will show as available again and if someone else purchase the animal in the mean time there is nothing I can do.

Of course there are ways to do this such as a reminder email "this has been 24 hours since our conversation etc" and if you don't hear from the person than you can assume they were not serious to start with.

There are a shady sellers but there are many buyers wasting peoples time also.

Follow your gut find another breeder (there are MANY out there) however I doubt there is a need to waste time on the BOI for a transaction that did not even occur.

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I agree with this completely. He was also asking the seller to drive and meet him so he could take possession of the snakes while only paying a deposit and I bet he talked him down on the price too. The seller must really need them gone to take such a deal. Not that I would ever allow any animal to leave my possession before it was paid in full but if I did I would try my best to sell it to someone else that would pay in full before he made his deposit so I didn’t have to make that deal. Until money changes hands there is no deal. People do act interested and waste your time and then disappear all the time if you hold something for them you will miss out on sales to others.

I completely understand where you guys are coming from on the idea that people can and will waste a seller's time. However, the buyer never asked me to send a deposit. We agreed to meet the following week, I would give him a deposit and one of the snakes. When I paid off the other ones (which would have been about 2 or 3 weeks later) I would get those. That seemed legit.

I guess if the seller mentions or requests the deposit be made, thats different. For example, because this deal didn't go through, I am purchasing a couple het ultramels from a pretty well known breeder for a different project. I completely trust this individual from all the amazing positive BOI posts and feedback. He asked for a deposit, and I immediately sent it on paypal once I got the invoice.

At the time the other guy and I discussed the deal, I didn't have any reason to feel weird. Yeah, he isn't known at all on the BOI, but after speaking with him, I felt alright. If he would have asked for the deposit at that time, I would have sent it via paypal. If you are going by this 24 hour rule, then you should ask for a deposit. If not, I assumed the deposit at time of getting the first snake would be fine.

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Originally Posted by jason79

I agree with this completely. He was also asking the seller to drive and meet him so he could take possession of the snakes while only paying a deposit and I bet he talked him down on the price too. The seller must really need them gone to take such a deal. Not that I would ever allow any animal to leave my possession before it was paid in full but if I did I would try my best to sell it to someone else that would pay in full before he made his deposit so I didn’t have to make that deal. Until money changes hands there is no deal. People do act interested and waste your time and then disappear all the time if you hold something for them you will miss out on sales to others.

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I feel like there is some insinuation here that I was doing something shady, assuming how things went in the deal. Let me break it down for you before you get going down the wrong direction.

1. I actually agreed to the price HE set for the animals, which was market value. I saw similar prices on KS.com that week. So you're wrong.

2. He offered to drive and meet ME. I actually offered to drive and meet him somewhere in his local city. So don't try it.

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Originally Posted by jason79

Not that I would ever allow any animal to leave my possession before it was paid in full but if I did I would try my best to sell it to someone else that would pay in full before he made his deposit so I didn’t have to make that deal.

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Uh... That really some shiesty stuff. If you have a problem with doing any payment plans, then dont make a deal to do one. I've never done one until this one I tried to do because I've never had to. He contacted me after I'd already bought other animals, and he offered to do it when I replied that I couldn't afford to purchase the animal in full for a couple weeks. I even said, I hope you have it on August 1st! Then he mentioned he had another couple females (that were in the same post), and we could make a deal for all three. I'm actually not saying its a bad thing to do a payment plan at all, just never did it before.

So relax man... no reason to come out swinging when you don't even know what you're swinging at.

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Originally Posted by PsychD_Student

Anyway, we decided on a deal for the animals, and I was happy with the risk involved. We talked by phone about the trade, because I was a bit hesitant to make installment payments for the snakes with someone who had NO history online if I didn't get the animals AT time of deposit. I offered info about my place of work and references. He was hesitant, and we worked out a deal that made us both happy.

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This is where people are getting bent backward about. You made the statement that it would make you feel better to have the animals with the first installment of the payment plan.

Generally considered a no no, but I understand that it was a metaphor of sorts to go with the gut feeling you had. ;)


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I'm not the one who was going to start a BOI post about a deal that never happened.

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Originally Posted by jason79

I'm not the one who was going to start a BOI post about a deal that never happened.

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Nor was the OP.

Your insinuations are unwarranted.

Advice was asked for and given. Your opinion of what the two parties involved agreed upon is of no value here. They made a deal. They agreed to the terms. Not you. They.

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Originally Posted by KMG

I would never pay anything up front to someone that is not an established breeder, and even then I would do it through Paypal. The world today is a sad place where few people can be trusted, especially online.

Your making the right call by not doing business with them. I think what he did was very wrong. If you have a deal with someone you don't make post still trying to sell the item. If it was already up and he leaves it until the transaction is complete then fine, but not making a new one. I have a deal right now to meet on sunday to get a new snake. I would be pretty steamed if I found new post from them trying to sell it. My mind would automatically jump to the thought I am being scammed or I am a future robbery target.

I always pay at the pickup. I also make sure to get vehicle plate numbers just in case things go south. Another good thing to do is try to remeber details about the seller you meet like tats, piercings, scars, etc.

I'm glad he didn't get you!

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^ Hahahahahaha! Brought to mind the saying: "In God we trust. All others we run through NCIC!".

To the OP: not to beat a dead horse but no, I don't think a BOI posting is warranted. I'd take it as a learning experience and do just that; learn from it. Call it a wash and now you have a better idea of how things could/should be done with any future purchases you might make and iron out all of the details from the start. Sounds like you got a nice pair of het ultramels coming your way and that's never a bad thing; smokin' hot morph if they prove out for you and in the end you're not out anything but some frustration, if even that from the other deal.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

No transaction occurred so I am not sure why you would want to post on the BOI.

As far as animal and their availability and being posted elsewhere here is my take on it as long as there is no money exchanged to me the animal is still available for sell (unless it is someone I know will come through with the payment those are generally friends and/or repeat customers).

People cannot hold an animal every time someone say I will get you the money next week. When I hold an animal that mean I received a deposit, no deposit no hold.

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I agree with Deborah on this. I have been contacted many, many times regarding snakes that people are interested in. I have been promised deposits on snakes, and never received them. Lots of people like to window shop. I don't consider a deal done until money has changed hands.

Basically, from what most have said here, don't bother to trust what someone commits too unless cash has changed hands.

That's really pretty sad. In the world I'd like to be living in if a man, or woman, gave their word, made a deal, committed to a certain course of action, that word would be sufficient to see the deed done be it a sale, walking the dog or taking out the trash.

From what my mind has gathered here, this wasn't window shopping, this was one guy telling another guy that a certain thing would happen in a certain place at a certain time. Then it didn't. So, one, or both, lied.

Does lying not count for anything any more? When I, just me, tell someone something, I mean that thing. If I say I'll hold a snake, with or without a deposit, then the snake is held as agreed.

In this world, so it seems, the one that so many seem so happy to occupy, a man's word don't mean squat.

Sad, just sad. And so many of you either overlooking or ignoring or forgiving this is also rather sad.

When you tell someone something, agree to a deal, make a promise, commit to anything, you really should follow through.

At least you should in the world I wished I lived in. This one, it sort of sucks balls sometimes and not in a good ball sucking sort of way.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Basically, from what most have said here, don't bother to trust what someone commits too unless cash has changed hands.

That's really pretty sad. In the world I'd like to be living in if a man, or woman, gave their word, made a deal, committed to a certain course of action, that word would be sufficient to see the deed done be it a sale, walking the dog or taking out the trash.

From what my mind has gathered here, this wasn't window shopping, this was one guy telling another guy that a certain thing would happen in a certain place at a certain time. Then it didn't. So, one, or both, lied.

Does lying not count for anything any more? When I, just me, tell someone something, I mean that thing. If I say I'll hold a snake, with or without a deposit, then the snake is held as agreed.

In this world, so it seems, the one that so many seem so happy to occupy, a man's word don't mean squat.

Sad, just sad. And so many of you either overlooking or ignoring or forgiving this is also rather sad.

When you tell someone something, agree to a deal, make a promise, commit to anything, you really should follow through.

At least you should in the world I wished I lived in. This one, it sort of sucks balls sometimes and not in a good ball sucking sort of way.

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I agree with you. For me, my word is golden. If I say I'll hold an animal, I'll hold the animal. If someone else contacts me, I'll say, "Well I currently have a buyer interested and I'm waiting for a deposit. But if something doesn't work out, I'll contact you ASAP."

If you think about it, SOOOOO much of this business is based on trust and reputation. Its not like buying a car. With a car, you know if its a beat up 1990 Ford Escort or if its a smooth 2013 Ferrari. But with the inherent nature of genetics and phenotype/genotype discordance, you just have to trust that you're buying a Ferrari and not a Ford Escort.

The only way you can get anywhere in this business is having a good reputation. If someone pulled out of a deal with me after we'd "shook" on it, I probably wouldn't do business with them again nor would I suggest people do buesiness with the individual. Your word and trust are golden here, and without that you're nothing in this business.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

At least you should in the world I wished I lived in. This one, it sort of sucks balls sometimes and not in a good ball sucking sort of way.

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What he said!!

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Originally Posted by jason79

I'm not the one who was going to start a BOI post about a deal that never happened.

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It's called the board of inquiry for a reason. I don't like the idea that you should only make a thread AFTER you're ripped off. In this case I think BOI isn't needed.

Hi,

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Originally Posted by Navy

It's called the board of inquiry for a reason. I don't like the idea that you should only make a thread AFTER you're ripped off. In this case I think BOI isn't needed.

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I'm guessing this is one of those cases where we are divided by a common language. I regard an "inquiry" as a formal hearing to determine the truth surrounding something and an enquiry to be a question regarding something. :oops:

Under that misapprehension I would search the BOI for an enquiry to find out someones reputation but only post regarding a definite contract/ deal that had gone wrong.


dr del

"He texts me yesterday saying he hadn't heard from me and wondered if I was interested. I said I messaged him on facebook and asked if he got it. He said, "No I didn't might went in the other folder." (my first thought was, uh... BS. What other folder on FB could you be talking about?) He said he never heard back from me and posted them because he thought I would text or call. (Maybe he doesn't check facebook?) However, not hearing from me in less than 24 hours isn't really a good reason to post the animal for sale."

You say your word is "golden" but it seems as if you are the one who backed out of the deal all he did was post "HIS" snake as for sale which they were. I'm not saying you shouldn’t have backed out if you did not feel comfortable by all means you should he could be a scammer I don’t know but it was you that backed out of the deal right?