What Do You Make of These Ball Pythons??? - Morph???

Had these little guys hatch from a Normal x Bumblebee and Pastel. Think the Bee looks like the Sire? The Normal (mother) has a thick stripe on 1/3 of her tail.

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...8/DSC_0933.jpg

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...8/DSC_0935.jpg

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...8/DSC_0934.jpg

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...8/DSC_0930.jpg

Thanks for your help........ :)

Had these little guys hatch from a Normal x Bumblebee and Pastel. Think the Bee looks like the Sire? The Normal (mother) has a thick stripe on 1/3 of her tail.

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...8/DSC_0933.jpg

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...8/DSC_0935.jpg

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...8/DSC_0934.jpg

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...8/DSC_0930.jpg

Thanks for your help..... :)

I would say that the bee was the father...

very interesting looking BP's

can we get pics of the parents?

Can you post pics of the parents? Those first 2 are pretty hot, whatever they are...but is it just me, or do their noses look rather short/blunt? Maybe the pics...

No problem, will go and get the parents pics and get back to you....... :gj:

Mum:
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...8/DSC_0940.jpg

Sire:
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...8/DSC_0942.jpg

interesting... I was expecting the mother to look a little more extreme lol

I would guess that the first 2 pictures are of Pastels

the 3rd picture is a bee

and the 4th is a normal

Possible that there is another unknown gene working here in my opinion.

those 2 first babies look nice i would keep them and mess around to see what they make.

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

Can you post pics of the parents? Those first 2 are pretty hot, whatever they are...but is it just me, or do their noses look rather short/blunt? Maybe the pics...

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Thx. You are right, they have shorter noses and slight undershot on lower jaw? Am Gutted! so will have to see how they go, will keep those and prob just be pets if quality of life is ok.
Was just amazed by the markings of the babies that have come out...
thanks for your help :gj:

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

interesting... I was expecting the mother to look a little more extreme lol

I would guess that the first 2 pictures are of Pastels

the 3rd picture is a bee

and the 4th is a normal

Possible that there is another unknown gene working here in my opinion.

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i dont see bee in the 3rd pic maybe pastel

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Originally Posted by JaGv

i dont see bee in the 3rd pic maybe pastel

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I think also pastel on this one.....is the crazy patterns on the 1st 2......??? spots and stripes?

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Originally Posted by JaGv

i dont see bee in the 3rd pic maybe pastel

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I'd say that the 3rd pic is different enough from the 1st 2 to say that something else is going on, and it certainly looks like classic spider banding to me.

There is something in this clutch that is really messing with the appearances of these snakes, none of them truly conform to anything I've seen.

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Originally Posted by milo45

I think also pastel on this one.....is the crazy patterns on the 1st 2......??? spots and stripes?

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you said you put a male pastel in there too right? what does he look like? what are the genders of the two spoted ones?

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

I'd say that the 3rd pic is different enough from the 1st 2 to say that something else is going on, and it certainly looks like classic spider banding to me.

There is something in this clutch that is really messing with the appearances of these snakes, none of them truly conform to anything I've seen.

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This is what I think......never seen anything like them and the clutch so different as you say. There is 1 more baby but is a traditional normal. I just dont know what to think??? with the short noses and slightly undershot jaw, am unsure if this "normal" and bee are compatible and whether to go in this direction again.??? thoughts?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by milo45

I think also pastel on this one.....is the crazy patterns on the 1st 2......??? spots and stripes?

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You're thinking right on the pastel...and yeah, the first 2 are crazy looking...I'd definitely be repeating the same pairing next year and keeping the babies.

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

I'd say that the 3rd pic is different enough from the 1st 2 to say that something else is going on, and it certainly looks like classic spider banding to me.

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3rd one has no spider in it...

Omg how cool is that. It's a polka dotted ball python! I like them all. But the first one is super cool. I think all the first three look pastel is in them to me. That's just my thoughts though.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

3rd one has no spider in it...

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I thought so too



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So do you guys think, if these are bred again next year and assuming the bee is the Sire, and this happens again, could this be a new pastel morph???
There was 1 more baby, it was HUGE! didnt get out of the egg in time and died. It was also totally awesome! It was so clean and had huge stripe about 2/3rds of body, no markings on last third of body and had spots...wish i took a picture, but didnt at the time......was so gutted :(

You all think the bee is the Sire and not a pastel???

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Originally Posted by milo45

You all think the bee is the Sire and not a pastel???

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Could be the bee, could be the pastel, could be a split clutch...5 babies with no spiders at all, though entirely possible, wouldn't give me much confidence that the bee sired the clutch alone.

Can you post a pic of the pastel male that you paired with the female?

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Originally Posted by milo45

So do you guys think, if these are bred again next year and assuming the bee is the Sire, and this happens again, could this be a new pastel morph???
There was 1 more baby, it was HUGE! didnt get out of the egg in time and died. It was also totally awesome! It was so clean and had huge stripe about 2/3rds of body, no markings on last third of body and had spots...wish i took a picture, but didnt at the time......was so gutted :(

You all think the bee is the Sire and not a pastel???

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i would ask an expert breeder to see if its a new pastel morph. and as for repeating the breeding i wouldn't know if it was the bee that sired the clutch it has pastel too. but i would repeat the same breeding both males to the female.. unless you want to breed just the bee and then pastel next time to see what pairing makes those crazy babies.

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Originally Posted by RobNJ

Could be the bee, could be the pastel, could be a split clutch...5 babies with no spiders at all, though entirely possible, wouldn't give me much confidence that the bee sired the clutch alone.

Can you post a pic of the pastel male that you paired with the female?

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will go get his pic now....... just the markings on the heads....similar to a bees?

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Originally Posted by milo45

will go get his pic now....... just the markings on the heads....similar to a bees?

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Pastel Male:
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...8/DSC_0953.jpg

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...8/DSC_0954.jpg

- - - Updated - - -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by milo45

Pastel Male:
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...8/DSC_0953.jpg

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...8/DSC_0954.jpg

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Oh .... now I am not sure who the sire is or whether it is possible for 2 sperm from 2 different snakes to fertilise 1 egg????

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Originally Posted by milo45

whether it is possible for 2 sperm from 2 different snakes to fertilise 1 egg????

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Not possible...

I would repeat the pairing.

I would try again next year and see if you get a repeat. If the pattern repeats sounds like a fun experiment.

Keep us posted on these babies please!

Just to echo what everyone else has said, the third baby looks like a pastel, the fourth is a nice normal. The first two scream "Classsic Jungle" to me. With the crazy patterns and deformed faces, I have to ask -- Did anything odd happen in incubation? Wet eggs, weird temps, anything?

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Originally Posted by Alicia

Just to echo what everyone else has said, the third baby looks like a pastel, the fourth is a nice normal. The first two scream "Classsic Jungle" to me. With the crazy patterns and deformed faces, I have to ask -- Did anything odd happen in incubation? Wet eggs, weird temps, anything?

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Thank you everyone for your help today. We had an issue around 2wks prior to eggs hatching and the temps in the incubator went crazy! I mean real hot, I let it cool down and had to remove all the eggs into a make shift incubator....vivarium, insulated with polystyrene and heat matt and stat.... whilst I sorted out the "real" incubator.
All other eggs that have hatched are all 100%

Once again, thank you so much for all the comments and input..... :gj:

Wow, those first two are crazy looking. :) I also thought the head shape was strange.

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Keep an eye on that first little guy..he looks like he has a little head that can be an indication of some issues, sometimes not all the time..

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Originally Posted by milo45

We had an issue around 2wks prior to eggs hatching and the temps in the incubator went crazy! I mean real hot, I let it cool down and had to remove all the eggs into a make shift incubator....vivarium, insulated with polystyrene and heat matt and stat.... whilst I sorted out the "real" incubator.

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I wonder if that could explain the extreme, funky patterns (in addition to the malformed heads, of course) on the first babies. ... Anyone know when the pattern develops in BP babies? Would they have already developed pattern by 2 weeks prior to hatching?

I would still repeat one or both pairings (bee x female and pastel x female) for sure ... Those are some really cool looking babies. It would be great if you had stumbled on something new and it'd be a shame to just write it off as an incubation issue. That said, I wouldn't get my hopes up TOO high just in case that is all it was.

Also, I don't think that five babies with no spiders gives you much information about who the sire is (maybe a hint in the right direction, but it definitely isn't screaming). My bee hates "giving up" his spider gene -- he has sired 12 babies thus far with only two carrying the spider gene.

Based on the defect and the temp spike, I suspect that this is not genetic, but incubation related.

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Im thinking that the first two are bees with moms pattern doing something wierd to their pattern, the third just a pastel, and the last a normal. Ok didnt read all the other posts, who knows. Look cool though either way, good luck

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Based on the defect and the temp spike, I suspect that this is not genetic, but incubation related.

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I would have to agree that this is probably not genetic but incubation related. I would definitely repeat the pairing just in case.

It's possible that the reason the first two are so wacky is something developmental, since it seems they may have other issues as well. I'd agree that the 3rd looks pastel, not bee, as well.

I agree with most posts thus far that they all of those are great looking snakes and most likely crazy pastels. The high temperature spike in the "real" incubator could very possibly explain the shortened head formation. (http://www.oocities.org/vermont_herp...y/article2.htm, 7th paragraph).

I am not sure if the spike in temperature would be able to cause the pattern of the animal to change. That would in effect be changing the DNA of the individual. That would be the same as saying someone who wanted their pastels to be brighter could simply incubate at 93 instead of 90. Isn't the pattern of the animal determined by their genetic make-up? I know that temperature during incubation in some reptiles can change gene interaction and influence male/female outcome(crocodillian), but can it really influence the specific patter?

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Originally Posted by TXpythons

I am not sure if the spike in temperature would be able to cause the pattern of the animal to change. That would in effect be changing the DNA of the individual. That would be the same as saying someone who wanted their pastels to be brighter could simply incubate at 93 instead of 90. Isn't the pattern of the animal determined by their genetic make-up? I know that temperature during incubation in some reptiles can change gene interaction and influence male/female outcome(crocodillian), but can it really influence the specific patter?

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You can change pattern without changing DNA.

Pigment begins in the neural crest and migrates down to form the pattern. All that has to happen for the color and pattern to change is for that migration to be interrupted.

I'm only on my second cup of coffee, so this is going to be a pretty butchered explanation, but I'd guess that the chemical processes and genetic switches that are supposed to happen in incubation depend a lot on temperature. As would speed of development . . . Just like temperature can speed up or slow down processes in adult snakes. Sometimes, temp spikes at the wrong time can cause wonky bone growth. It's causing the control switches in the fetus to mis-fire. It is the same with pigment. Heat is interrupting the normal development of the pattern just like it's interrupting the normal growth of the snake's lower jaw.

Hopefully, someone else can give a better explanation than I can right now.

Holy cow the first two are insane! I have no idea what is going on with them! Were the parents related? Possibly carrying something genetic?

If there was a spike, it could definitely contribute to the crazy patterns. I didn't read far enough to see there was a temp issue. I have seen some really crazy looking patterns just because the temps spiked. It's so strange that the temp can have that much of an effect on patterns, but it does happen.

This is the result of an incubation problem. Snakes born with temp complications can look incredible. Typically they have deformed heads, kinks, neurological problems, or other subtle deformities. The snake will not be genetic unfortunately, and in a lot of cases, are often culled because of the defect. If it struggles to thrive, I'd recommend finding a vet to properly euthanize. Good luck.

First two just look like Pastels that were affected by the heat spike...

The patterns are pretty awesome. I hope you find some viability there.

If those first two little ones survive and can eat, I would be very interested in adopting them. I have an amazing eyeless normal I adopted from Pat at Action Reptiles who is one of my favorite snakes.

Just keep me in mind for a forever pet home.

I am sorry this happened to you, I agree it is most likely an incubation issue, but I would certainly repeat the breeding with the bee to her next year and see what happens.

Gale

Thank you guys for all your input..... I have already contacted my vets surgery and spoken to them yesterday and they are happy for the little ones to continue and if no issues then fine, if I feel their quality of life is compromised then I will have them put to sleep, as it is only fair on them.
I didnt realise temps could affect the pattern of a snake WOW and only around 1 1/2wks - 2wks from hatching!
You would have trouble adopting Gale sorry, as I am in the UK lol, but dont worry, I will keep the little guys for life, they will have a home as long as they are well and can feed........
I came on here as I feel you guys are more knowledgeable than the UK, who are only Critical!!! I would get better input and advise on here.
I will let you all know how they get on and when they shed etc, I will do some pics and if you would like to see the jaws, I will take a pic for you.......
I always think better to discuss like this rather than to criticize like in the UK. It was very unfortunate the in incubator "spiked" and it was during the evening and night time.
We had another clutch about to hatch at the same time (2days between this and the other clutch), I am pleased to say, they are all 100% and got ourselves some Black Pewter Het Hypos...... :)
Thanks again People..... :gj:

It's possible your incubator spiked earlier on in the incubation, when you weren't around, isn't it? (I highly recommend a new incubator or thermostat, so it can't happen again).

Hope they make it for you!

Rats!

How hard is it to get a snake from the UK here ? Derrik has a couple I want, so maybe if I can be picking up enough at once, it would be worth it. :P

Gale

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Originally Posted by angllady2

Rats!

How hard is it to get a snake from the UK here ? Derrik has a couple I want, so maybe if I can be picking up enough at once, it would be worth it. :P

Gale

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lol.....not hard for us at all hun, we advertise and ship with Boa Republic and can get things back over the pond too :)

edit:

incubation temperature issue definitely seems the likely culprit! Also the pattern on your pastel there certainly lends itself to the spotty nature of the first two animals.

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

edit:

incubation temperature issue definitely seems the likely culprit! Also the pattern on your pastel there certainly lends itself to the spotty nature of the first two animals.

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thank you so much for your help........ :)

An update for you on how the "Crazy Pastels" are going...... They are all feeding and havent lost any, only one will feed on own, however, the others with undershot jaws, we just pop a Fluff (still on them), in their mouth...only just in and they do the rest of the work, we are not forcing them, just literally open the mouth and pop in, then....they stand up in their tubs and devour their little mouse on their own, they have 3-4 one after the other which they willingly take once put in for them...
Here are some pics for you to see ....... :)

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...8/DSC_1180.jpg

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...8/DSC_1165.jpg

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...8/DSC_0967.jpg

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...8/DSC_1021.jpg

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...8/DSC_1023.jpg

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...8/DSC_1025.jpg

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...8/DSC_1031.jpg

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/n...8/DSC_1032.jpg

Glad to see they are doing good.
Those are still some great looking patterns.

I didnt re-read the whole post but where there any problems during incubation or temp spikes?

[QUOTE=PitOnTheProwl;1951223]Glad to see they are doing good.
Those are still some great looking patterns.

I didnt re-read the whole post but where there any problems during incubation or temp spikes?[/QUOT

Hi thank you :)
yes we had an issue toward the end of the incubation period and when I went in, in the morning and checked the eggs, the heat was "PHEW" coming out when door opened, checked stat and independent gauge and temp was very high, had to take all eggs ....a few boxes out of incubator and make one with a heat mat in a viv as temporary emergency measure......the tub with these guys in had gotten very hot, hotter than the others....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by milo45

yes we had an issue toward the end of the incubation period and when I went in, in the morning and checked the eggs, the heat was "PHEW" coming out when door opened, checked stat and independent gauge and temp was very high, had to take all eggs ....a few boxes out of incubator and make one with a heat mat in a viv as temporary emergency measure......the tub with these guys in had gotten very hot, hotter than the others....

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That could explain the pattern:gj: