Monster Pieds?

What's your biggest pied, weight/length? I believe I read somewhere they can be problematic eaters and growers but that could really be said about ball pythons in general, not necessarily a morph's trait.. In the opinions of piebald owners, do you notice any difference in their feeding habits or growth rates compared to your other royals? Anybody's input is welcome and appreciated but I'd especially like to hear from people with hands on experience with this morph, as I have none. I'm thinking of getting a little pied project going and would like to find some robust lines if this is an issue.

I have an 1800 gram 2008 pied female who LOOKS huge, but has failed to ovulate two years in a row. I also have a second, slightly smaller 2008 pied female who did ovulate, and who is a week or two away from laying 6 eggs. They're good eaters: I feed only f/t and grow them slow, so they'd both be bigger with somebody else doing the feeding.

My only problem eater pied is a 2009 male. But his pastel girlfriend just laid 6 good eggs, so he's still getting the job done. I'm glad he's a boy, not a girl!

I'm sure Deborah will post here, but I know her female that she produced grew at an amazing rate. I saw her as a hatchling and the next thing I knew I was looking at a stunning adult - it felt like it was overnight. It wasn't of course, but it was impressive!

I've the same experience as loonunit. I've got a big girl that is 2,000+ grams but she has failed to lay for me two years in a row. I've got a smaller 1500 gram female that has six eggs in the incubator. My male would breed with a hotdog if I put him in with one. He produced a double het clutch (albino) this year, knocked up a het pied girl, another pied and a spider. Last year was his first and he produced a clutch of lesser het pieds. I've not had any problems raising up pieds.

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Originally Posted by Don

My male would breed with a hotdog if I put him in with one.

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:) :gj:

No problems ever.
My original 2002 het female, Big Bertha, is a whopping 5500 grams on average. Her first clutch was 9 eggs at 30 months old. Held back a pair of pieds from that breeding. She now averages 13-14 eggs a season.

2005 pied from Big Bertha. First clutch of six 2008 at roughly the same age. Now weighs over 3000 grams and produces clutches of 8-9.

2010 Pewter Pied girl. Hatch in August of 2010 and reached 1200 grams before her first birthday. She now weighs right at 2000 grams at just under 2 yrs old.

2010 Pied girl. Also hit the 1000 gram mark at less than a year old and currently weighs 1800 grams.

I haven't had a single problem with any of my Pieds. Only ones that have feeding issues for me are Pastel het Pieds...but I've had feeding trouble with every pastel I've ever owned. Look for the pied lines that don't have the issues. I'm sure not everyone will admit it if they have had problems though. Good luck!

I've been hearing that rumor for many years, as well. I also heard a couple of new ones recently: one is that pieds may have somewhat weaker immune systems (heard that from a pathologist who necropsied a few pieds out of someone's collection that died of pneumonia) and one is that people used to think pied females would be infertile or subfertile like female deserts or caramels.

I have to believe that there is some grain of truth, however small, in some of these rumors that pied is a "weaker" gene. I don't know whether it came from the original founder animal perhaps carrying some deleterious genes that became concentrated in his original (inbred) offspring, or whether there is some (pleiotropic) aspect of the gene itself that can cause negative effects in some bloodlines or individuals. We do know that piebaldism is associated with aganglionic megacolon in many species (mice, rats, possibly horses). While I don't believe that it is associated with that in pied ball pythons (I have never heard of a pied dying from impaction for no good reason, let alone this happening often enough to suspect a link), it does indicate that the mechanisms by which the piebald coat/skin pattern appears can have other, unseen effects.

All that having been said -- in answer to the OP's question, my one piebald is a youngster yet, but she is one of the best feeders and fastest growing of my '11's -- and I bought her as a "runt!" Piebalds are probably my absolute favorite morph hands-down, and I think it's safe to say they are one of the absolute most popular. I've seen enough evidence to suggest that there are some really strong, hearty, robust piebald bloodlines out there and I think if you are careful about selecting your stock, you should be fine.

Can't tell you about every pied but I can tell you about mine.

My female het pieds is 3400 grams (that was a healthy weight last year she might weight more this year), right now she is 3000 has she is recovering from laying her eggs ;).

She eats like a horse and rarely has enough, apparently her offsprings 2 of which I own a male and a female pied are the same way strong appetite and very nice size (female is over 2000 grams eating like there is no tomorrow), she would probably be bigger if she did not go off feed because of breeding season but than again most of my girls do

Other hatchlings I have kept track of because buyers have kept me informed have reached 700/900 grams in their first year.

They may reach a plateau at a year 800/1000 grams but so do most animals.

So that's my experience with the pied I work with.

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

I've been hearing that rumor for many years, as well. I also heard a couple of new ones recently: one is that pieds may have somewhat weaker immune systems (heard that from a pathologist who necropsied a few pieds out of someone's collection that died of pneumonia) and one is that people used to think pied females would be infertile or subfertile like female deserts or caramels.

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I would have to question a pathologist that would make such a statement after testing only a few animals from one person's collection. Certain pathogens can reek havoc not only on the immune systems, but on the physiology of the animals. To make such a broad statement with very minimal research is irresponsible in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

I have to believe that there is some grain of truth, however small, in some of these rumors that pied is a "weaker" gene.

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Is this based on what the pathologist said, what you have read, or from experience? I feel quite the opposite. I have never had a single issue in regards to health from any pied. I have a very nice group and have friends that would say the same about theirs.

I dont have a large pied yet but it is a male late 2011 and addressing the feeding issue he would be a perfect example of proving the rumor that pieds are problematic eaters wrong. He is an eating machine! He is already on small rats and does not hesitate to strike from day 1.

No problems with Pieds eating, growing, thriving, or breeding. Have a look at the clutch records on our web site and you'll see plenty of clutches produced by female Pieds, especially the last few years since more of our holdback visual females have been reaching breeding age. We have produced visual Pied combo's with Pastel, Black Pastel, Spider, Fire, Lesser, and Yellowbelly by breeding the co-dom Het Pied males to visual female Pieds.

Our Pieds are just like any other ball pythons and the females are typically 1600-1800 grams when they produce their first clutch at ~ 3 years of age. We have had them produce at 2 years of age, but that is from individuals that are very determined to grow... We don't push meals at them hoping to accomplish that. For 2012, most of our breeding females were between 2000 and 3000 grams prior to laying eggs, only one (the oldest) bounces over 3,000 grams. Breeding adult females that gain a few hundred grams a year while producing around 700 grams worth of eggs is good enough for me!

-Paul

Thank's ya'll.

Don't know if Het Pieds count but I will give my experience. Both het females are not very good eaters, they may eat 4-5 weeks in a row and then stop for varying amounts of time. My pastel het pied male and female spider het pied started out slow but have become very good feeders and are fianlly putting on some size.

My 2009 het pied female is a beast when it comes to feeding an laid her first clutch this year of 6 eggs. she was around 2k grams shes now putting the weight back on with out a problem

2008 female pied got to 1k grams went off food for 9-10 months an now will eat when ever i offer.

2010 male pied will eat one small rat weekly but is a very slow grower. Hes only 500-600 grams now an will only miss a meal here an there.

My 2011 Pied girl is the best eater I have. She would eat until she would explode if I let her She is currently 800G and very healthy. I have had no problems with her and the only time she has gone off feed was when we moved her to an new larger enclosure. She was off feed about 3 weeks and then came back with a vengance. :D

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

I would have to question a pathologist that would make such a statement after testing only a few animals from one person's collection. Certain pathogens can reek havoc not only on the immune systems, but on the physiology of the animals. To make such a broad statement with very minimal research is irresponsible in my opinion.



Is this based on what the pathologist said, what you have read, or from experience? I feel quite the opposite. I have never had a single issue in regards to health from any pied. I have a very nice group and have friends that would say the same about theirs.

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I didn't say that I agreed with what the pathologist said (sorry, I should have clarified that) ... Quite the opposite. I think he was making a wild leap based on a statistical fluke, and I don't personally think that being piebald had a damn thing to do with the snakes getting pneumonia. (IIRC, there were a whopping three pied females that died, and may even have been a few other snakes in the bunch.) However, it was a wild leap speculation made in public, in front of an entire conference of veterinary pathologists, and that caused a classmate of mine to state that she had heard that certain morphs of ball pythons have problems (referring to pieds). So, it is a rumor that is currently "out there" that reptile veterinarians may come across in their literary travels ... I'm just putting it out here so that if any of you hear it, you'll know where it came from (and take it with a large heaping portion of salt). (Incidentally, I don't think that the pathologist was trying to be hurtful to the ball python industry ... I think he just got over-excited with what he saw as a potential new discovery. I've been meaning to get in touch with him anyhow ...)

Let me clarify what I meant when I said that I think that these rumors are based in truth ... I don't mean that I think that piebalds currently have any more problems than most morphs. My personal experience (based on an N = 2, my currently female pied and one that I sold) is that they eat and grow at least as well if not better than most ball morphs.

What I do mean is that it's a VERY old rumor, and I DO believe that it is based in some fact from somewhere along the line. It may just be that, in 1993 or whenever the morph was first being established, the inbreeding was so tight that it concentrated some particularly negative genes that led to "failure to thrive" in a number of piebald lines. It may have had not one single thing to do with the piebald gene itself, but was an example of "founder effect" of sorts.

I also think that it's quite possible that, as a result of deliberate outcrossing to the strongest, biggest and healthiest wild-type balls (probably as a direct result of the "rumor") piebalds are currently one of the stronger genes to work with -- as our collective experience with them all currently seems to suggest :)

I do wonder if it may mean that perhaps they are a morph to use some caution with when contemplating the decision to inbreed.

I apologize if I came off as slamming the morph -- believe me, that's not my intention. The biggest problem I have with piebalds is that there aren't enough of them in my snake room ....!

I didn't take it as a slam on pieds at all. I was just trying to understand where you were coming from on the idea. Just want to clarify though, pieds were not proven genetic until 1997.

....and to add, snakes are non-migratory, thus inbreeding is a very natural occurance. I've had people argue with me on this subject, but it's exactly how we get locale phenotypes. Ask any diehard grayband keeper. Btw, I did not include this part out of spite. Just wanted to also share my opinion on the negative notion of inbreeding being a problem....which I do not believe in.

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Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

I didn't take it as a slam on pieds at all. I was just trying to understand where you were coming from on the idea. Just want to clarify though, pieds were not proven genetic until 1997.

....and to add, snakes are non-migratory, thus inbreeding is a very natural occurance. I've had people argue with me on this subject, but it's exactly how we get locale phenotypes. Ask any diehard grayband keeper. Btw, I did not include this part out of spite. Just wanted to also share my opinion on the negative notion of inbreeding being a problem....which I do not believe in.

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Thanks, I think I got 1993 because I believe that's the first year I ever saw an albino ball python ... For some reason it stuck in my head :rolleyes:

I don't have a problem with inbreeding, either, as long as it's done intelligently ... For example, if you were to inbreed your "powerhouse" line of piebalds to try and fix those good traits of good appetite and growth rate in your bloodline, I think that would make total sense!

If, on the other hand, a breeder finds herself with a smallish, slow-growing, poor feeding but genetically valuable piebald (say, a super pastel super Enchi clown pied), I would recommend to her that she outcross it to a stronger bloodline rather than keeping back and using his het daughters (even if they are pastel Enchi double het pied clowns ... Which would make it mighty tempting!)

I have a Pied female from 2008 and she is about 3000 gramm.
The others from 2009 are between 1600 and 2100.

One het Pied from 2011 is now on 1100.;)

I have a pair of het pieds and they are my worst eaters. Usually every other week is what they have both been averaging. Just for comparison I have 2 snakes that HAMMER food. One is my dinker female, one is my pastel het red het hypo. Both these snakes usually get the rats that the pieds dont eat lol.


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I produced my first pieds last year after 10 years starting with possible het males and breeding to normals. I only kept one pied back but he grew quickly and bred well at less than a year. I've not weighed him lately but at 1 year I'd guess he is in the 700 gram range in spite of really shutting down on feeding once I started breeding him.

I have lost two animals in my collection years apart to an impacted bowel problem that my vet compared to megacolon in cats. Both where POSSIBLE het pieds. I've posted several times if this is seen in pied projects and never gotten any report that it is. Hopefully I'll eventually hatch a keeper female pied or six to grow up and have something more to add to this discussion. Of the 7 pieds I've produced so far (from three different 25% chance het pied girls held back for belly markers that proved) the only female had tied the umbilical around herself and I wasn't able to save her. There was another that died in the egg but I didn't sex it, probably my other girl, lol.

My male pied currently weighs in at around 850g for a 4 year old royal. He USED to be a problem feeder but only in the sense that it took me a long time and a lot of wasted rats/mice/multis to find out that all he wanted to eat was gerbil! For no aparent reason he has now (after 2 and a bit years of eating nothing but gerbil) suddenly decided that rats are edible and is hammering them most weeks... He is beautiful and vigorous and certainly very healthy, also has worked out what girls are for but he hasn't sired a clutch yet as the female diidn't 'go' in the end-better luck next season as she (my poss het pied) has suddenly started pigging on rat weaners after a bit of a fast and is looking in great condition.