can you identify this snake?

I know this is in the wrong section but im on my phone and couldnt find the "field herping" section.

Hey everyone. My friend was out on the lake yesterday, and his dad had killed this snake because he didn't know what it was. I did see it in person, but by the pictures it looks like a cottonmouth. But I've never seen a cottonmouth with color like this. Any ideas? Sorry, pics are slightly gruesome.

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/.../IMG953510.jpg

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/.../IMG951853.jpg

looks to be a cottom mouth

I'm torn between cotton mouth and brown water snake. They look so much alike down here in Georgia.

ehh the more i look at it the more it looks like a brown water snake

Looks like a harmless water snake to me, northern or brown perhaps. I was never particularly interested in water snakes so don't know them well enough make a positive identification. It certainly does NOT look like a cottonmouth to me though.

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Originally Posted by BallsUnlimited

the water snakes head is round i thought were the copper head has more of a pointed. correct me if im wrong

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That's what I always thought too lol but copperheards are very distinct, cotton mouths and water snakes looks VERY similar down here. Some water snakes have the "triangle" shaped head as well as the cotton mouths.

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Originally Posted by John1982

Looks like a harmless water snake to me, northern or brown perhaps. I was never particularly interested in water snakes so don't know them well enough make a positive identification. It certainly does NOT look like a cottonmouth to me though.

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Yeah I never really had an interest in them either. Most cotton mouths around here are jet black, that's why the color threw me for a loop here. I wish I coulda seen it in person to make a positive I.D.

If it was a cottonmouth believe me you'd know, the difference is unmistakable between them and any of their local counterparts.

the cm also seems to have a banded pattern it seems where the brown water snake had a more broken up pattern

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Originally Posted by Trackstrong83

Yeah I never really had an interest in them either. Most cotton mouths around here are jet black, that's why the color threw me for a loop here. I wish I coulda seen it in person to make a positive I.D.

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They are born lighter, so you can see their pattern more easily, but darken with age.

alls i know, is where i'm from, when you see a head like that you kill it or run. :O

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Originally Posted by h&tmaster

alls i know, is where i'm from, when you see a head like that you kill it or run. :O

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I'm saddened to see this kind of attitude on a snake forum. :-(

The run part, I'm okay with, but why would we kill something that is living in it's own environment, minding it's own business? <sigh>

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Originally Posted by Really

I'm saddened to see this kind of attitude on a snake forum. :-(

The run part, I'm okay with, but why would we kill something that is living in it's own environment, minding it's own business? <sigh>

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If I can walk the other direction I will. Living on a lake, with dogs and little kids around, I must admit I have killed my share of water moccasins :'(
I HATE killing anything that is in it's own environment, but I would rather kill a venomous snake, than bury my little brother. :(

To Op, cannot identify, I am not familiar with them.

As far as other comments, it is sad to think we would kill a snake, I wouldn't if I could avoid it. But if it was between my daughter and a snake, I'm sorry, snake (or any danger for that matter) would be history.

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Originally Posted by DrDooLittle

As far as other comments, it is sad to think we would kill a snake, I wouldn't if I could avoid it. But if it was between my daughter and a snake, I'm sorry, snake (or any danger for that matter) would be history.

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Same here. I've came across plenty of rattlers in the wilderness, and since I was in their territory, I just slowly walk away and let them be. But when it puts your family in danger, you really have no choice.

Looks like a water snake to me. The pattern is really what gives it away. Moccasins are black as adults, and even a juvi looks nothing like that snake in the picture.

Here's a pic of a Brown Water Snake generated from a google search:
http://sensationalserpents.com/wp-co...ter_snake3.jpg

Since I teach ID classes on discerning water snakes in Nerodia and comparitively discussing the difference between those and the genus agkistridon p., here are some pointers for positive ID's on Western / Eastern Cottonmouths (I can not see the image from work, so I'll check it from home tomorrow to tell you my thoughts on its ID). . .

1) Triangular head is not a give away - most of the members of the genus nerodia have the ability to flatten their head giving it a triangular appearance in the presence of a threat. When humans encounter these species they will generally go into an immediate defense mode making confirmation by head shape moot.

2) Slit pupils - By far the easiest method for confirming a cottonmouth is the presence or absence of a slit pupil. If you can't tell from a moderately safe distance, it's a GREAT chance that you are looking at a Slit pupil, as rounded pupils tend to be quite visible.

3) Gray super cillia - Cottonmouths have a gray streak (thick line) that runs laterally down the side of their face. Sometimes this is not always visible, although most specimens I've worked with show this trait and it's ID mark is consistent. The top half of the snakes eye will sometimes have a gray hue to it as well.

4) Single row of scales post sub-caudal scale (cloaca opening) - If you find a snake that is dead, and the head is too mangled to get a proper ID from this aspect. You can also look at the scale configuration under the snake. If you look at the base of the tail and find the cloaca you should be looking at the sub-caudal scale. Follow this down toward the tip of the tail. IF the scales are divided as in two scales side by side beneath the tail, this is a nerodia (water snake), if the tail has only a single scale that goes down from the base of the sub-caudal scale, then this is a viperidae and should be confirmed as a Western / Eastern Cottonmouth (depending on region of course)

There is a lot of variation to their pattern. I've seen some adults that are knock outs with amazing coloration, I've seen some juveniles that had already darkened out to almost nothing! Therefor we sometimes need to look for other visual indicaters when discerning between species of interest. A rule of thumb with adult cottonmouths though is look for the stubby tail - If a snake is fat up to the last 1-2" of its body where the tail is and it looks like someone just squeezed all the meet out of it, this is USUALLY an indication that you have a cottonmouth. Some unhealthy, less fit, individuals, however, will lack this visual indicator and require a closer examination.

Always remember that while Cottonmouths may be "fresh killed" they still have nerve endings that can cause a post-death bite. Never handle a cottonmouth directly live OR dead. If you have a need to relocate a cottonmouth seek someone who has more experience with venomous, or let it be. Remember, there is no need to kill a snake, even if it is dangerous to you. With a little distance and a lot of respect, even the deadliest of snakes can be safe (ish!).

Cheers

I've never purposefully killed a snake, venomous or otherwise. I prefer teaching kids not to mess with native fauna and if they're too young to understand should they even be tramping around on their own where there could possibly be danger? These animals don't have malicious intent, I just don't see the justice in killing them. What happens when you're not there and the kid sees a snake? Will they pick up a stick or run get a shovel and try to take it out to "protect" themselves? Seems to me this would just be increasing the odds of getting tagged. Teach by example, kids are never too young to learn, and think hard about what kind of message you want to convey to protect and promote wildlife.

I like how some of you are acting like you need to flee from venomous snakes or kill them :rolleyes:

They are not out to get you. They just want you to leave them alone, it is extremely unlikely they would make any sort of attempt to come after you if you just walk away.

Snakes don't kill for sport, they aren't out to kill every human they see or some crap like that.

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Originally Posted by mackynz

I like how some of you are acting like you need to flee from venomous snakes or kill them :rolleyes:

They are not out to get you. They just want you to leave them alone, it is extremely unlikely they would make any sort of attempt to come after you if you just walk away.

Snakes don't kill for sport, they aren't out to kill every human they see or some crap like that.

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Nobody said they are out to get you.

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The only venomous snake I've seen in the wild was a baby rattlesnake that I helped across the road :P

ahh simple thought, if the head isnt mangled what about looking for pits?
Cottonmouths aka Water moccasins, are a type of pitviper. kinda easy way to figure that out.

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Originally Posted by DrDooLittle

Nobody said they are out to get you.

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Then I see no reason to run away from them or kill them, let them be and they will let you be. I wasn't meaning to direct this at you or anything.

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Originally Posted by mackynz

Then I see no reason to run away from them.

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I also don't think everyone is running away from them either. Rather leaving them be.

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Originally Posted by h&tmaster

alls i know, is where i'm from, when you see a head like that you kill it or run. :O

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Things like that, or killing it if it was near kids. Since the snake won't go after people I would just not let the kids play near the snake rather than killing it.

I just can't see a situation where the snake would be between you and a child and you would have to swoop in and kill the snake when you could much more safely remove the child than try to kill the snake risking both you and the child.

The exception being the person who lives by the lake, because that is a permanent problem.

That is a Nerodia, one of the Brown Watersnakes as mentioned. The head is mucho circular, and lacks any gray super-cilia. The pattern is also alternating squares. A greatly patterned Cottonmouth with have more of a banded pattern in uniform. Harmless snake 100%. Sorry it took so long.

http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1050/5...1077fa80_b.jpg
Juvenile Eastern Cottonmouth (Captive Born), note the lack of the gray, but very contrasting head still, and very well marked. This is a two month old that I used for classes from Glades Herp down in Florida

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5301/5...09218311_b.jpg
Adult western cottonmouth (wild) with remarkable pattern. This was one of the many that I relocated during a program to save Cottonmouths from human destruction in a hurricane area that was frequented by the elder. Note the visible graying, and contrast to the eye :-)

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Originally Posted by mackynz

The exception being the person who lives by the lake, because that is a permanent problem.

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Most Cottonmouths live in forested areas, with some living in marshes and swamps, most are within reason from a permanent source of water, but in my years experience with Nerodia and cottonmouths, the majority of water type snakes found near lakes are generally going to be Nerodia, harmless water snakes. If you live on the edge of a forest near a lake that has a rich forest floor, you will have a better chance of running into a Cottonmouth, but not always the case. . .