Odd Hatchling.....What is it???

I'm posting this for a friend who recently produced the hatchlings shown in the images below. The pairing was Lesser x "normal". There are three Lessers in the clutch, two "normals" and the hatchling shown in the first two images. One of the "normals" (shown in the last two images) has a small amount of white in an area where it normally would not be.

If you have any ideas about what you think may have caused the odd phenotype on this hatchling, he would like to hear them.

Thanks for looking.

http://photos.imageevent.com/corners...s%20Clutch.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/corners...0Snake%202.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/corners...0Snake%203.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/corners...0Snake%204.JPG

No clue, however it looks really cool!

It's a paradox, I think.
Probably a paradox lesser platinum. There are a variety of theories about what causes this. The pattern could be due to some sort of genetic anomaly in this case. I think the white areas are the result of having 2 copies of the lesser gene, while the rest of it only has 1 copy. (So, it's half BEL, half lesser).

It does not look like a piebald.

I would repeat this pairing, for sure. It's a very unique looking animal, and it's odd that another hatchling has a white patch.

Its AWESOME no matter what. I do second the paradox vote.

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woah thats a crazy paradox!! how is there 2 pardoxes though thats wayy cool!

Hmmm with the other "normal" having white on it too. I'd like to see pics of mom and dad. I have a sneaking suspicion that mom may be something in the het Lucy complex and these are two paradox bels as a result.


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I think that the one, at least, is a paradox BEL/Lesser, but the mother wouldn't necessarily have to be in the complex for that to occur. It may not be a chimera.

As for the one with the white patch...it might be a different phenomenon entirely. For all we know, it might shed and it'll be gone, lol.

That hatchling is one of the coolest looking snakes I've ever seen. It's almost purple in some places and such a vibrant orange in others. :bow:

what ever happend there turned out to make a very nice snake.

I know what type of morph that is! It is a.. "Give-to-reptliegurl-for-free" morph, ha ha just kidding :P

THAT IS SUCH A COOL SNAKE! CONGRATS TO ANYONE WHO GETS TO EVEN SEE IT! :gj:

And I also bow down to such a superior clutch :bow:

Also, what does BEL stand for? Sorry, I'm an idiot when it comes to acronyms.

BEL = Blue Eye Lucy


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Love that paradox lesser very beautiful indeed. I'd be taking so many pictures of that beauty the minute it came out hehe


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That pairing needs to be repeated!!

SUper cool

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Originally Posted by che

That pairing needs to be repeated!!

SUper cool

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x2 ^^^
Make more of those, whatever it is!

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It's a KEEPER :D :gj:

Imagine that paradox lesser at 500g would be stunning!

Not only would I breed mom and dad again but I'd breed that to a normal and cross one of the offspring back to it. Beautiful snake.

I would pair again as well as line breed.
Kudos to you! i want the next one that comes up! Lol

that one looks like it should be called a "true fader!!!!" because it pattern actually fades!!!!

nice!!! i wish u much success!!!!!!:gj:

No clue as to what it is, but, I would definitely keep it because its HOT!!!

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first one is a kick @zz snake. the second one with the white spot will lose it within a shed or two.
adam jeffery

wow that really cool. paradox lesser/ bel, wonder if the head would of been white, would it had the blue eyes

Awesome looking results!
I love paradoxs and the whole mystery of them.
Very cool

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Awesome :). Can you show us the "normal" that made those weird looking babies :P ?

That is a keeper for sure:gj::gj::gj::gj::gj::gj::gj::gj:

Amazing looking baby, whatever it is.

That is one very gorgeous unusual and phenomenal looking snake!

Smokin baby! WOW! I'd like to see pics of the parents.


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Easily the coolest paradox I've ever seen. This pairing needs to be repeated.

Wowzers!!! Please post pics of the parents.

I say keep the major paradox n prove it out

Those are probably one of the hottest paradox Ive seen! :gj:

I'm curious as to where the normal came from that was used in this pairing. Do you have the info on the parents of that normal? Is it a captive hatched deal? That would make it a lot more interesting, as if it wasn't already pretty cool!!

That is the coolest paradox I have ever seen. Congrats.

That's an awesome result!

Wow. I bet they did 'The Happy Dance (TM)' when they saw those babies popping out! Weather its repeatable or not- They've got themselves one stellar beauty. Major congrats!:cool:

How is this possible? I though they only have one locus that determines the morph? If what you are saying is possible, we would see this a lot more often as we see genetic flukes all the time. Therefor, we would have seen this already. My bet is the fact that there is something else going on. Two snakes in the clutch have this "bleaching" going on. Is it possible that this is the Eclipse gene at work? Has you buddy bought any animals from Mike Wilbanks?

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

How is this possible? I though they only have one locus that determines the morph? If what you are saying is possible, we would see this a lot more often as we see genetic flukes all the time. Therefor, we would have seen this already. My bet is the fact that there is something else going on. Two snakes in the clutch have this "bleaching" going on. Is it possible that this is the Eclipse gene at work? Has you buddy bought any animals from Mike Wilbanks?

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I'm certainly no expert, but I have heard theories in regards to animals that exhibit paradox traits. Some of those theories including a 'merging' of embryos at very very early stages (cell clusters). Basically, two animals merging into a single animal with two different DNA markers depending on the area in question (pattern). Chimeras have been witnessed in various different animals and all pose unique visual traits.

Naturally, I'm not anywhere near qualified to delve into the specifics of that, but it was a topic that was brought up in relation to paradox snakes that would actually make sense. Two embryos, two different genetic make-ups (visual) that merged and the genetic information merged to create a paradox.

As far as I know, paradox animals do not pass on their visual traits. They do not create more paradoxes. So could this also be a case of being a chimera?

Genetics are a very neat thing, that's for sure.

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Originally Posted by Reakt20

I'm curious as to where the normal came from that was used in this pairing. Do you have the info on the parents of that normal? Is it a captive hatched deal? That would make it a lot more interesting, as if it wasn't already pretty cool!!

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The female is a CB normal she is a 2007 that i bought from a young man. the parents i can't locate.

E

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Originally Posted by Vasiliki

I'm certainly no expert, but I have heard theories in regards to animals that exhibit paradox traits. Some of those theories including a 'merging' of embryos at very very early stages (cell clusters). Basically, two animals merging into a single animal with two different DNA markers depending on the area in question (pattern). Chimeras have been witnessed in various different animals and all pose unique visual traits.

Naturally, I'm not anywhere near qualified to delve into the specifics of that, but it was a topic that was brought up in relation to paradox snakes that would actually make sense. Two embryos, two different genetic make-ups (visual) that merged and the genetic information merged to create a paradox.

As far as I know, paradox animals do not pass on their visual traits. They do not create more paradoxes. So could this also be a case of being a chimera?

Genetics are a very neat thing, that's for sure.

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There are some genes that make white snakes when there are no double BEL genes present. Somebody will know what I'm talking about(it was something like a Mojave Desert and something else crossed). Also, others that throw consistent ringers. If you research the Eclipse gene Mike thinks it is a 3 gene of some sort. The link is here...
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...9QEwAw&dur=158

It looks somewhat similar. I know MIke doesn't want to release what it is, but, if you send him an email he will tell you if it looks anything like the ones he is hatching I'm sure.

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Originally Posted by kingpin

The female is a CB normal she is a 2007 that i bought from a young man. the parents i can't locate.

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Kingpin, can you post some pics of the mother for the ones who requested them?

I would bet the white on the second one will come off after the first shed. I have seen a lot of babies hatch out with white patches like that but they are gone after they shed. The second one is pretty crazy though.

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Originally Posted by adamjeffery

first one is a kick @zz snake. the second one with the white spot will lose it within a shed or two.
adam jeffery

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Originally Posted by J.Vandegrift

I would bet the white on the second one will come off after the first shed. I have seen a lot of babies hatch out with white patches like that but they are gone after they shed. The second one is pretty crazy though.

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The small area of white on the otherwise normal looking sibling did come off with the first shed...

My guess is that it is a "paradox," and my theory on the paradox is as follows.

It is important to realize that, for many "recessive" traits, homozygosity for the mutant allele is NOT a pre-requisite for phenotypic expression. The lack of any normal allele is.

To give an example, a snake actually would theoretically not have to be homozygous for the mutant albino allele to appear albino. It simply has to have no normal allele at that locus. So, a snake could be visually albino if it is homozygous albino (call it a-a, if you want), OR if it is "hemizygous" for the mutant allele -- meaning that it has one copy of the mutant allele on one chromosome, and no corresponding allele at all on the other chromosome. (This is, incidentally, the reason that sex-linked [X-linked] recessive traits are much more common in mammalian males than mammalian females -- because in the male, the recessive mutation is "running unopposed," so to speak.)

My theory is that many paradoxes arise when, very early in development, one cell line suffers a mutation that renders the one normal copy of the allele null, or deletes it entirely. So, the white-appearing patches (I believe) are genotypically different from the lesser-appearing patches, and have a genotype that is "hemizygous" for the lesser gene -- that is, they contain only one copy of the lesser gene and NO normal gene (but not two copies of the lesser gene).

Alternately, I think it's possible that one cell line suffered a mutation to the one "normal" copy of the allele, rendering it mutated as well and leaving that cell line with no normal copy of the gene to produce normal pigment (the white cell line is "lesser / mutant" in genotype).

I suspect that many "paradoxes" are either one or the other of the above (a loss of function mutation or a deletion of the one remaining normal allele in one cell line of a heterozygous animal, resulting in a mosaic). I have read accounts of paradox albinos being produced from het x normal breedings, and I have also read a few accounts of paradox albinos proving out as genetically "het albino," both of which support this idea IMO.

That's just a theory though, of course ... I know nothing about the "eclipse" morph, which looks terribly awesome and promising, so maybe your friend has stumbled on an "eclipse" gene ..? I don't know -- regardless, it's an awesome looking animal and a keeper for sure!

Here are some pics of the mom breeding the Lesser sire, on her eggs and another by herself. These are the only pics my friend has of her at this time.

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-...62987077_n.jpg

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-...31248025_n.jpg

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-...27931721_n.jpg