Temperature Question

Hello,

So I received my thermostat today (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...ls_o01_s00_i00)

I had to use some couple of pieces of wood that I had cut at home depot so I could raise my tank a few inches from the tank stand, before the tank was sitting direct on the stand which would not allow for my UTH to be placed directly under the tank due to the lack of space to allow the escape of the excess heat. Previously the UTH had to be placed on the side of the tank.

Once I had everything set up I was monitoring the thermostat and seeing how the temp fluxuates. I set the temp to 91 degrees, I noticed the once the thermostat shut off my UTH the temp would continue to raise to 92.6 degrees, then (even though the temp was set to 91), and it would not turn on the UTH until 88.8 degrees. I understand the thermostat I purchased is on the low end of what I could have bought, but I was wondering if these temp ranges are ok for the hot spot for my tank.

Thank you,

Greg

I don't like seeing that much variation i can live with a degree but 3 is a bit much. this is common with hydrofarms they seem to shut down 2 degrees over the set point and 3 under it. They are not great units this swing might be reduced by heating the room ambient temp a few degrees higher, try lifting this to 78-80º and see if it improves.

Sounds normal. This is an issue with the on/off style thermostats like the one that you got. Higher end proportional thermostats don't have this issue.

While not prefered the temperature flux you described will not be an issue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

Sounds normal. This is an issue with the on/off style thermostats like the one that you got. Higher end proportional thermostats don't have this issue.

While not prefered the temperature flux you described will not be an issue.

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Do you think I should use a secondary heat source to help with the temp flux? The only issue I have had so far with using one (e.g. light bulb) is it seems to suck the humidity out of my tank.

If the cool side of your cage stays between 78-82 degrees I wouldn't use a secondary heat source. If it stays below 78 then I would consider it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

If the cool side of your cage stays between 78-82 degrees I wouldn't use a secondary heat source. If it stays below 78 then I would consider it.

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Do you think I could raise the thermostat to 92 degrees? The only concern I would have about this is, once the thermostat shuts of my UTH the temp could continue to raise till 93.6 degrees, would this temp be too high?

If this is not too high, the UTH would turn on back a 89.8 verse 88.8 degrees.

I wouldn't turn it up, it's not like the temps stay low all the time. I am more worried about high temps vs low temps.

The ideal range for the hot side is 88-92 degrees so you are still fine.

It would then shut down around 93 or so? No I would not the other hydrofarm issue is the reading is horribly off. I have tested a number and I have not had one that was correct. They all read wrongly. Johnsons and rancos both only have a one degree up and down shift and are better for accuracy. proportional units are even better again. I don't usually suggest using a hydrofarm they just have such poor accuracy and swing that makes them iffy.
26.9ºC = 80.42ºF the hydrofarms in the picture are 83.8 82.4 and 81.6.

http://images114.fotki.com/v1605/pho...CA_9509-vi.jpgHosted on Fotki

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Serpent Merchant

I wouldn't turn it up, it's not like the temps stay low all the time. I am more worried about high temps vs low temps.

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Very good point, especially I'm in Phoenix, AZ. Cool temps are not much of an issue here :)

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

It would then shut down around 93 or so? No I would not the other hydrofarm issue is the reading is horribly off. I have tested a number and I have not had one that was correct. They all read wrongly. Johnsons and rancos both only have a one degree up and down shift and are better for accuracy. proportional units are even better again. I don't usually suggest using a hydrofarm they just have such poor accuracy and swing that makes them iffy.
26.9ºC = 80.42ºF the hydrofarms in the picture are 83.8 82.4 and 81.6.

http://images114.fotki.com/v1605/pho...CA_9509-vi.jpgHosted on Fotki

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The hydrofarm shuts off at 91 degrees which is what I have it set to, I think its just the "left over heat" from my UTH that admits and that gets the temp close to 93 degrees before the temp actually starts to drop.

That is not typical behaviour for a UTH when the power is off they start to cool immediately. that is the base premise behind a pulse proportional, they cycle many times a second.

The hydrofarms I have tested all run over the temp set. I suspect yours is as well. i tested the original series (3) and then got 6 more of the 'new improved' ones straight from hydrofarm the probe response cycle is a touch faster but past that are the same. The very best on off on the market shut down one over the set point. it is unlikely that hydrofarm has improved this, remember they are made to heat soil, and gel medium for seedlings the overage is likely designed into the unit due to the properties of soil.

With small snakes I personally use a hot spot of 88º and cool of 79º with ambient air of 80º little ones generate heat when digesting and raise the hot hide temp up 2-4 is not uncommon. 91º starts to be a the highest end of ok given this. Big snakes are different 90/80 ambient 78-85º is fine.

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Originally Posted by martin82531

The hydrofarm shuts off at 91 degrees which is what I have it set to, I think its just the "left over heat" from my UTH that admits and that gets the temp close to 93 degrees before the temp actually starts to drop.

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That's pretty much what it is. The on/off type of thermostat is running 100% until it reaches the desired temp, then turns off completely. what you are getting is the residual heat from the unit cooling down. Proportional thermostats actually lower and raise the amount of power needed to maintain a constant desired temp, so they are much more accurate.

Honestly, the variation isn't so much that you need to worry. However, i would keep a good digital thermometer nearby, and check your warm end once in a while.

For me, at this point in time, a 1 or 2 degree variation was worth saving the 85$ difference i would have paid for a proportional thermostat. Now once i get into breeding, i'll go all out and spend the big bucks and get a top of the line thermostat.

Are you checking your temps with a thermometer and not the hydrofarm itself? it is a slow response it takes time to read a change. You NEED to be using a thermometer to set the temps of the hydrofarm they should never be trusted. (clearly 3.4º high is an issue add the three more degrees... That one in the picture when set to 90 produces an average high temp of 95.7º)

If you have the thermostat probe sitting on the bottom of your tank over the uth you need to remember the temp on the substrate will be alittle lower. Depending on what you use the temp maybe much lower. Check the substrate surface temp with a IR themometer. I got back into keeping snakes recently and once i got my IR temp gun and figured out how different the surface temps were compared to the ambient temp, my habiats have now become very accurate to the correct temps and having hot and cool zones.

I live in Houston so its naturally pretty humid. I have a forty gallon tank with a uth that is not stuck directly to the bottom. It is very near but doesnt touch. With that and about 3/4 inch of shavins for substrate it is spot on 90°. I do have other lamps.

I hate heat and keep my apartment at 68-70 at all times. With that i have to use a ceramic heater and set of low watt heat bulbs(they also are my day and night cycle). Even with the uth on the glass it didnt give me the proper temps. I added the extra help and placed the uth near the glass again, instead of on, and now my temps and humidty are perfect.(compared to most care sheets.)

I do use light stands for a proper distance and made a cardboard cut out that fits the screen with a window for the heat and light to pass through. I covered that with foil and that helps trap my heat and humidty.

I now have a zone from 78 to 91 in the tank.

I have yet to find an accurate hydrometer for tanks so i use my calibrated one for my cigar humidor. With my overkill setup my numbers are spot on without a thermostat and therefor have no flux in temps.

Im not against a thermostat i just haven't shelled out the money for a good one. The way i have mine set up the uth is unable to overheat my tank. Which i prefer.

You can go to any hardware or office supply and buy little rubber pads/buffers to raise your tank just alittle. They are to prevent slipping or scratching of tabletops or furniture. They come in all sizes and materials.

I prefer the naturalistic look and have live plants and a pretty complex set up. The plants will help keep humidity up if you are having a problem with that. I mist each morning.

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Originally Posted by KMG

If you have the thermostat probe sitting on the bottom of your tank over the uth you need to remember the temp on the substrate will be alittle lower. Depending on what you use the temp maybe much lower. Check the substrate surface temp with a IR themometer. I got back into keeping snakes recently and once i got my IR temp gun and figured out how different the surface temps were compared to the ambient temp, my habiats have now become very accurate to the correct temps and having hot and cool zones.

I live in Houston so its naturally pretty humid. I have a forty gallon tank with a uth that is not stuck directly to the bottom. It is very near but doesnt touch. With that and about 3/4 inch of shavins for substrate it is spot on 90°. I do have other lamps.

I hate heat and keep my apartment at 68-70 at all times. With that i have to use a ceramic heater and set of low watt heat bulbs(they also are my day and night cycle). Even with the uth on the glass it didnt give me the proper temps. I added the extra help and placed the uth near the glass again, instead of on, and now my temps and humidty are perfect.(compared to most care sheets.)

I do use light stands for a proper distance and made a cardboard cut out that fits the screen with a window for the heat and light to pass through. I covered that with foil and that helps trap my heat and humidty.

I now have a zone from 78 to 91 in the tank.

I have yet to find an accurate hydrometer for tanks so i use my calibrated one for my cigar humidor. With my overkill setup my numbers are spot on without a thermostat and therefor have no flux in temps.

Im not against a thermostat i just haven't shelled out the money for a good one. The way i have mine set up the uth is unable to overheat my tank. Which i prefer.

You can go to any hardware or office supply and buy little rubber pads/buffers to raise your tank just alittle. They are to prevent slipping or scratching of tabletops or furniture. They come in all sizes and materials.

I prefer the naturalistic look and have live plants and a pretty complex set up. The plants will help keep humidity up if you are having a problem with that. I mist each morning.

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Thermostats are necessary. There was recently a thread that showed that a unregulated UTH got the cage up to 108 degrees in just 2 hours. This is hot enough to cause neurological issues.

I agree if the uth is on the glass.

You helped me out when i started using my temp gun. You told me that then and i cut my uth off cause you thought it wasnt doing anything for my tank temps. When i cut it off i found the tanks temp dropped a good bit. The way i have my setup the uth is at full power but unable to overheat the tank because of the gap.

If i had it mounted to the bottom of the tank i would make sure to have a thermostat. I really feel the way i have it now is safer. You may not agree but my numbers are constant and uth can not do any harm how it is.

Play with one just laying under a tank. You will see it heats it up pretty well without touching it. Heat rocks were the way now its uth, maybe im a pioneer of the unattached uth. Lol

If it works, it works.

It might work for you but there are a huge range of UTH heaters on the market producing various temps. I have a sample of industreal flexwatt (Holroyd rubber mat) that produces over 230ºC un regulated. Gap or no gap it would need a T-stat. You are making a blanket statement that simply is not always the case. If someone listens to your advice and their snake is badly burned how will you feel?

UTH comes in a wide variety of wattages and heat out put I have from 4w to 1200w units, the low wattage ones maybe you could the high wattage you would be lucky if it didn't cause a fire and shatter the glass.

UTHs need to be regulated!

That is true. I wasn't trying to get anyone to setup their tank like mine, I was just telling what I found worked for me in my situation. Yes, I realize their are many different uth. Why would you use one that gets so hot? Flexwatt states:

"Our products are custom designed to maintain critical temperatures that are frequently necessary in food and chemnical processing. Such temperatures may be necessary to maintain the integrity of a sensitive chemical, avoid scorching and flavor alteration of delicate flavorings or simply for freeze protection."

That doesn't sound like a herp friendly product to me. I guess its great for pancakes but I would just use a hot plate, lol. I didn't think about people using mega uth. Mine is just a regular one that suits my needs perfect. In the future I will state that I am only using products purpose built for herps.

I would hope that nobody would use one like you described. Not only for the animal but your home. Sounds dangerous.

I use it as it is intended for melting plastics. That is not the point. You quoting flexwatt is a bit hypocritical isn't it? Flexwatt should never be run unregulated, it is hotter than the suggested max sustained operational temp. It is interesting you mention a product that simply should NEVER be used with out a thermostat.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Ihave a sample of industreal flexwatt (Holroyd rubber mat) that produces over 230ºC un regulated.

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I think that is the point. Are we discussing melting plastic or uth? You were talking about a product not intended as a uth in a uth convo.
And I didn't mention it. You did. I just looked it up and stated what their product page said. So why are you telling me how hot it can get as a uth if its not intended for that use? I guess I could make a whole list of items that need a t-stat that are not intended for use as a uth to prove they would get to hot as a uth without one. I'll start with my hotplate, it can be a uth, melt plastic, and make pancakes. Thats a win, win for you.

The point remains that different wattages run different temps no I don't believe and one here has a Holroyd Matts it is too bad they don't make low wattage stuff. (water proof, silicone rubber mat, fire resistant ? I would buy them if they did.) Exo terra sells two wattages one low one high for example (in the exact same sizes). The case remains there are hundreds of heat mats. Hell, I have one that needs no regulation and could be placed inside safely (max temp is 84º waterproof and abrasion proof) do I run around suggesting such a thing NO. (don't place heat mats inside or unregulated)

That is the point. Recommending something that not using exactly the same as you are in the same conditions you are, that could cause an animal harm is not a good idea.

Please before you post advise think about if the advise is based on something that is general or specific to a single set up and single product! If it is maybe not post it or with qualifiers. State the conditions under how it has worked for you. Advising a new person to do something that has the potential to seriously harm their animal, without telling what conditions need to be in place at the same time.

I shot you down so hard because currently I have a rehab snake in that is suffering because someone told the owner that it was not necessary to use a thermostat with a heating mat and a tub. The poor kid (the guy is 12) got a bit of 11 inch flexwatt and wired it and plugged it in and dropped the tub on top of it. Cooked snake. It sucks the kid is heart broken and traumatized. Should he have read care sheets carefully yes, did he no. He listened to some random person on a forum and the advise he got burned his snake. One person told him flexwatt was best and someone else said uths could be run un regulated together they make a disaster. The snake has second degree burns. The organization I work with is helping with the rehab and treatment. Which form and poster I did not ask, could it have been here? Yes it could have.

I understand that a good percentage of people don't take proper care of their animals or themselves for that matter. That's how I got my BP.

I think you and I are fighting for the same cause. I think I'm giving people to much credit in the common sense department. It should probably be said to NEVER place your animal in any enclosure until you have it setup and tested. I knew the hazards of over heating my snakes and set the tanks up and made sure all was well before introducing them into it. Although out of all the care sheets I have read I have never seen that advise I just used my own brain and figured that was the safest way.

You and I could go back and forth all day but I really don't want to. What you forum veterans need to do is give more detailed advise. I have noticed that many times a new snake owner will ask a question and they will get short answers that really didn't answer the question. Sometimes it seems they are just posting to get their post number up.

Again my post was not meant as a how to guide and I was in no way trying to get anybody to try my setup. I saw a person that was having a similar problem that I had before and commented on what I did to get it solved. Like I suggested, I guess I left out some details or qualifiers. 1. I am using a low power uth, not a mega uth. 2. Remove your snake while you experiment with your heating equipment. After all a over powered heat lamp set on the tank screen can cook your pet as well. Which is how it seems you see people using the lamps. I personally use the purpose built heat lamp stands and love them. They provide a good standoff and they are still delivering heat with the screen off while I take my BP out to handle or perform maintenance.

This whole time I was in the mind set that the animal was removed from the tank and we were testing the created the environment. Why didn't one of you tell them not to have their pet in the tank during setup. Am I weird by removing mine? I don't want any animal hurt!

Now that I have one and see the usefulness of it my first recommendation is buy a IR temp gun. Makes you habitat much more accurate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KMG

If you have the thermostat probe sitting on the bottom of your tank over the uth you need to remember the temp on the substrate will be alittle lower. Depending on what you use the temp maybe much lower. Check the substrate surface temp with a IR themometer.

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Currently I have the have the probe from the hydrometer sitting inside the tank directly over the UTH. I used a hot glue gun to keep the probe in place, the substrate (Aspen) is sitting on top of the probe. Any thoughts on this?

Also do you have any recommendations on an IR temp gun?

I use this IR gun, so far it has worked great.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...ls_o03_s00_i00

You typed hydrometer but I think you are asking about your Hydrofarm Tstat probe. It sounds like it is located in the right spot. Like others have stated the differences in uth is great. Depending on yours I would be worried that the glue might melt and make a mess or ruin your probe. The substrate should anchor your probe fine. If you want an anchor you could get a fake silk plant from any pet store to hang from your tank wall to house the wire and give it some support. They just use a suction cup to stick to the side and stand up well to critters. They also hold water after misting helping your humidity and give your snake a place to drink from. Mine will often drink from the leaves in the tank.

just remember that the thickness, type, moistness or dryness of your substrate will make your surface temp higher or lower than what the uth is set at. Thats where the temp gun comes into play to get it right.

Tip: for more support of the wire you could use zip ties to anchor the wire all the way down the plant branch. I would use a lighter to soften (round off the sharp points) the edges after you snip of the tails. Just kiss the sharp corners with a lighter and rub them with your fingers. I bet the edges wouldn't hurt your snake, but better safe than sorry. This may be overdone, my snakes don't pay my wires any attention.

DO NOT USE TAPE WITHIN YOUR TANK.

It is likely you will have micro climates in your tank especially for humidity. I like to place hygrometer probes in the warm and cool hides. It is very common to have the arm one lower than the cool.

IR guns are great tools. The basic models are very similar accuracy (+/-2ºF) so the differences are the DS ratio and the batteries it takes. I would recommend one that takes a common battery (9v is common for them I avoid the ones that take things like sr44 I had one years ago that took six sr44 at 7$ a battery... )
DS ratio for royals 1:1 is the best likely they have an optimal measurement distance of around 4 inches. The 6:1 are about 24inches and that seems a bit much for royals.

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Originally Posted by KMG

I use this IR gun, so far it has worked great.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...ls_o03_s00_i00

You typed hydrometer but I think you are asking about your Hydrofarm Tstat probe. It sounds like it is located in the right spot. Like others have stated the differences in uth is great. Depending on yours I would be worried that the glue might melt and make a mess or ruin your probe. The substrate should anchor your probe fine. If you want an anchor you could get a fake silk plant from any pet store to hang from your tank wall to house the wire and give it some support. They just use a suction cup to stick to the side and stand up well to critters. They also hold water after misting helping your humidity and give your snake a place to drink from. Mine will often drink from the leaves in the tank.

just remember that the thickness, type, moistness or dryness of your substrate will make your surface temp higher or lower than what the uth is set at. Thats where the temp gun comes into play to get it right.

Tip: for more support of the wire you could use zip ties to anchor the wire all the way down the plant branch. I would use a lighter to soften (round off the sharp points) the edges after you snip of the tails. Just kiss the sharp corners with a lighter and rub them with your fingers. I bet the edges wouldn't hurt your snake, but better safe than sorry. This may be overdone, my snakes don't pay my wires any attention.

DO NOT USE TAPE WITHIN YOUR TANK.

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You are correct, I meant to say my hydrofarm probe. I think I'm going to pick up a IR gun to help get a better accurate reading of the temperature in the cage. I think I'm ok now, but if I can fine tune the snakes environment, that will be better for the snake.

Reading the ball python care guide on the forums, it says the basking area should be between 88-94 degrees. In a hypothetical situation, if the temperature stays in this range but is consistently fluxuating in this temperature range, is this bad for the snake, and if so, how come?

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

I wouldn't say its bad. However a few degrees for us is a bigger deal for a snake. If your tank changes temp a bit that's fine as long as its within their good range. I would make sure to have a constant basking area though. Its easy for your snake to move to a cooler zone but if it doesn't have a basking zone when it needs it, it can't create it for itself. Try to make sure to keep that constant. I Use a ceramic heater on a stand. That way I can lower or raise it to get the desired temp and I can make it directional. Tip: use the purpose built wire lamp not a regular heat lamp dome. The heater states using the wrong fixture will cause it to burn out.

Also Serpantmerchant says he uses hot glue to secure his probe. I would test it though.

I use hot melt for securing T-stat probes personally I don't secure thermometer probes but hot melt is great. The two points with it. Remove the snake while you are gluing! The second is I would suggest securing all the wire down that is inside. It really sucks to find a snake tangled in a cord. With the cord stuck at the probe and where the access is tangles can happen. I had one ages ago my big girl just tore the cable apart so no harm. It would suck if you use an expensive thermometer like a accurite.