Vet Trip

So I took my little black pewter named Shadow to the vet today.

He has been wheezing for a few days now.

The staff at Mountain View Veterinary Hospital were very friendly and professional.

Hopefully after 10-14 days of liquid Baytril, my little guy will be okay.

A picture of my snake on the Vet's facebook page:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Mounta...99404973451590

Well after 14 days of Baytril, he still makes the wheezing/whistling sound when being handled.

I read in another post that whistling sounds from the glottis are normal, so now I am not sure what to do. :confusd:

I could take him back to the Vet and try a different antibiotic but, that would create more stress on him.

I could dismiss the sounds I am hearing as normal but, that would be bad if it is an actual RI.

The Vet couldn't do a culture since the snake isn't discharging any fluids.

Anyone have any insight?

Here's the link to the thread where folks were saying it's a normal sound:
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...95#post1865795

Is it just wheezing? Or is there mucous, bubbles, opening mouth, etc?

Are you sure it's wheezing? I've mistaken hissing for wheezing before. Heh.

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Originally Posted by Poseidon

Is it just wheezing? Or is there mucous, bubbles, opening mouth, etc?

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He isn't discharging any fluids- so no mucous/bubbles.

Vet would've done a culture if there was.

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Definitely not hissing. Thanx though.

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Originally Posted by alkibp

Well after 14 days of Baytril, he still makes the wheezing/whistling sound when being handled.

Anyone have any insight?

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Your issue is mainly right here

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Hopefully after 10-14 days of liquid Baytril, my little guy will be okay.

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Treatment is too short, Dr Stahl http://www.seavs.com/ who is the best herp vet in the country recommend a month treatment and not 10 to 14 days.

Additionally oral anti-biotic are not the best, injection are usually prescribed.

Also a culture should have been done whether mucus was present or not.

Now I understand you vet was nice but what really matters is to go to a QUALIFIED herp vet many will tell you they will see your reptiles when ask but believe me there is a HUGE difference.

I would suggest a different vet.

Short of them doing a lung wash, you're probably done for now, unless he develops some other symptoms, or the symptoms get worse. I do have one snake that developed asthma after an RI. It would act up whenever ambient temps dropped a bit, or she went into shed, and once in a while for no apparent reason. A couple of years later, it rarely occurs anymore. You could try bumping the humidity up a bit, or even giving him a weekly nebulizer treatment with water, to ease his breathing, if his airway is simply inflamed and sensitive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alkibp

So I took my little black pewter named Shadow to the vet today.

He has been wheezing for a few days now.

The staff at Mountain View Veterinary Hospital were very friendly and professional.

Hopefully after 10-14 days of liquid Baytril, my little guy will be okay.

A picture of my snake on the Vet's facebook page:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Mounta...99404973451590

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I did not tell you whistling sounds were normal, I told you they were normal under certain circumstances - namely stress.

What is not normal is a vet prescribing an antibiotic without the presence of any other symptoms or without attempting to culture the causative bacterium.

Given the absence of any other symptoms, the vet should have pointed this fact out. However nice your vet may seem, if he/she suspected a bacterial infection, a culture should have been taken. A trans-tracheal wash could have been done, regardless of what you were told.

Baytril is not a silver bullet against the gram negative bacteria that cause RIs in snakes. Hack vets that blindly throw it at every bacterial infection can be thanked for that.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Your issue is mainly right here

Treatment is too short, Dr Stahl http://www.seavs.com/ who is the best herp vet in the country recommend a month treatment and not 10 to 14 days.

Additionally oral anti-biotic are not the best, injection are usually prescribed.

Also a culture should have been done whether mucus was present or not.

Now I understand you vet was nice but what really matters is to go to a QUALIFIED herp vet many will tell you they will see your reptiles when ask but believe me there is a HUGE difference.

I would suggest a different vet.

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Well, there are 3 Vets that work in that building I went to. The guy I saw was their "reptile" guy.

He also mentioned injections are not the best due to the possible development of an abscess.

How can a culture be done without taking a sample of mucous/fluid from the mouth area?
I'll mention that to the Vet next time I see him.

Thanx for the advice. I'll keep it in mind.

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Short of them doing a lung wash, you're probably done for now, unless he develops some other symptoms, or the symptoms get worse. I do have one snake that developed asthma after an RI. It would act up whenever ambient temps dropped a bit, or she went into shed, and once in a while for no apparent reason. A couple of years later, it rarely occurs anymore. You could try bumping the humidity up a bit, or even giving him a weekly nebulizer treatment with water, to ease his breathing, if his airway is simply inflamed and sensitive.

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Thanx for the info. I had no idea snakes could get asthma. Now my ball python and I have something in common.;)

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I did not tell you whistling sounds were normal, I told you they were normal under certain circumstances - namely stress.

What is not normal is a vet prescribing an antibiotic without the presence of any other symptoms or without attempting to culture the causative bacterium.

Given the absence of any other symptoms, the vet should have pointed this fact out. However nice your vet may seem, if he/she suspected a bacterial infection, a culture should have been taken. A trans-tracheal wash could have been done, regardless of what you were told.

Baytril is not a silver bullet against the gram negative bacteria that cause RIs in snakes. Hack vets that blindly throw it at every bacterial infection can be thanked for that.

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Yes. Here is what you said:

" It's normal.

Snakes often make noises - especially when they are being held or messed with - that emanate from the glottis and the nares. These are usually the expulsion of breath due to stress."

"Normal under certain circumstances" is exactly what I got from it. When being held he makes a whistling/wheezing sound.

On my next visit to the Vet, I'll mention the trans-trachea wash and culture, regardless of the absence of mucous/fluids.

Thanx,

The culture is done with a lung wash. batryl has been over used for RI and there are many bacteria highly resistant to it. Snakes are not mammals, It takes at least 24 hours to digest oral items and 48 is more likely and then it would take a further 2 days again to have any effect at all. Orally it is unlikely anything would be seen for 4 to 5 days. The current belief among exotic vets is 10 days is simply not going to do anything to reptiles cycles are usually 30 days and often longer. Injections do have a risk of abscesses, the injection cycle is usually 3 days apart. The site of injection often shifts right to left side from an inch away from the head moving down the body. My vet likes to use saddles or alien heads to mark locations so left side first spot and then right second down and back left 3 spot. zThis walking reduces the chance of abscesses and the injections are much more effective.

The sound of your experience I would question if this is RI. It could be or might not. The answer is in the culture, not only it will tell you what antibiotics to use but if they are needed at all. The vet sounds like they are adapting methods used for small mammals for snakes, it is not always the best methods. Clearly I am not there I am not a vet. I do work closely with a vet in my part of an reptile rescue organization, I see her at least once a month. I have never seen a herp vet give oral antibiotics to a snake it also is much more stressful for the animal. Sadly after a round of antibiotics cultures are very suspect. I might wait and if there is still a problem in a month get a culture done. it will tell you if there is an issue and how to treat it if needed.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

The culture is done with a lung wash. batryl has been over used for RI and there are many bacteria highly resistant to it. Snakes are not mammals, It takes at least 24 hours to digest oral items and 48 is more likely and then it would take a further 2 days again to have any effect at all. Orally it is unlikely anything would be seen for 4 to 5 days. The current belief among exotic vets is 10 days is simply not going to do anything to reptiles cycles are usually 30 days and often longer. Injections do have a risk of abscesses, the injection cycle is usually 3 days apart. The site of injection often shifts right to left side from an inch away from the head moving down the body. My vet likes to use saddles or alien heads to mark locations so left side first spot and then right second down and back left 3 spot. zThis walking reduces the chance of abscesses and the injections are much more effective.

The sound of your experience I would question if this is RI. It could be or might not. The answer is in the culture, not only it will tell you what antibiotics to use but if they are needed at all. The vet sounds like they are adapting methods used for small mammals for snakes, it is not always the best methods. Clearly I am not there I am not a vet. I do work closely with a vet in my part of an reptile rescue organization, I see her at least once a month. I have never seen a herp vet give oral antibiotics to a snake it also is much more stressful for the animal. Sadly after a round of antibiotics cultures are very suspect. I might wait and if there is still a problem in a month get a culture done. it will tell you if there is an issue and how to treat it if needed.

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Thank you very much for your valuable insight.

I think I will take your advice and give it a little while, maybe a week or two, then ask for a culture even if there is no mucous/fluids present in the mouth area. (Provided I can still hear the noise of course.)

I do appreciate your response. It was informative, non-arrogant, and to the point. :D

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Originally Posted by alkibp

Yes. Here is what you said:

" It's normal.

Snakes often make noises - especially when they are being held or messed with - that emanate from the glottis and the nares. These are usually the expulsion of breath due to stress."

"Normal under certain circumstances" is exactly what I got from it. When being held he makes a whistling/wheezing sound.

On my next visit to the Vet, I'll mention the trans-trachea wash and culture, regardless of the absence of mucous/fluids.

Thanx,

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I would strongly suggest you find a new vet.

1. Failing to culture the infection is a big no no.
2. Prescribing oral baytril is another iffy move.
3. Telling you they could not do a culture because he wan't expressing any mucous or fluids.

This forum is rife with people spending a lot of money and time, not to mention subjecting their snakes to untold stress because of personable vets who couldn't handle a simple RI.

As Alex stated, doing a culture after the animal has been on several weeks of antibiotics most likely will not provide for an accurate test. If you can make the drive, there is an excellent reptile vet in Berkeley by the name of Ken Harkewicz. It may be worth your while to make an appointment with him.

Then again, were the noises continual or were they only heard in stress inducing situations?

I didn't realize it was oral antibiotics--missed that. Yeah, that's pretty worthless, find a new vet, and start over.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Your issue is mainly right here

Treatment is too short, Dr Stahl http://www.seavs.com/ who is the best herp vet in the country recommend a month treatment and not 10 to 14 days.

Additionally oral anti-biotic are not the best, injection are usually prescribed.

Also a culture should have been done whether mucus was present or not.

Now I understand you vet was nice but what really matters is to go to a QUALIFIED herp vet many will tell you they will see your reptiles when ask but believe me there is a HUGE difference.

I would suggest a different vet.

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I totally agree with deborah, dr scott stahl is tops, and if antiboitics aren't given long enough or strong enough then all we are doing is making bacteria that can become resistance to that antiboitic and the snake will show signs again of being sick.

I really get liking your vet. I actually feel that is important. But the worry I have is what reaction will he/she have when you present information to him.

To my mind and experience a GOOD vet

Admits when they are out of their element and calls upon other resources.
Listens to the experience of the owner and considers that information.
treats the animal with respect and is careful to not add unnecessary stress to the animal.
Treats you the keeper and and your questions and concerns and explains what why and how they are doing things.
Follows up calls.
Will speak to you on the phone and answer questions about the treatment and or changes with out a visit.

I get wanting to keep the same vet they clearly are treating you well, but it is also clear the depth of experience with snakes is low. It is possible that your vet is following some instructions that are out of date or just altering what would work for a mammal. Hard to say, the fact that they did not admit their lack or experience (understandable no one can expect every vet to have expertise in all animals, The office I go to also has a large animal specialist cows and horses ect.). The concern I have is the vet will not admit the in experience they have demonstrated and bang on with some other treatment that is not appropriate and again you will have a (possibly) sick animal. The worst part is a treatment that does more harm then good. I would also suggest a vet whom has more experience if possible. Perhaps a phone call and bring up the concerns forwarded by a handful of experienced keepers here. How your vet responds would dictate if a new vet and long drive is in order or not. Skiploder has tons of experience, it would behove you to consider his advise on the vet choice.

I would seriously consider a switch at this point, an experienced herp vet is of great value and usually saves your money in the long run, multiple visits cost a ton of cash.

I appreciate your suggestions but, a seven hour trip up north to Berkeley is simply out of the question. I will give my current Vet at least one more visit before I begin the search for another.